8 ms·

The uncomfortable answer which no one wants to speak about is that an overtly liberal policy doesn't translate to the best possible society, or necessarily even

The uncomfortable answer which no one wants to speak about is that an overtly liberal policy doesn't translate to the best possible society, or necessarily even an acceptable one, regardless of how well off the city or state is. Compare San Francisco to somewhere like Singapore, and ask yourself where would you rather live - and if the freedoms available in SF are worth the trade offs. BTW I'm not taking a stance here as I live in neither location.

Hamuko 4y ago
Is San Francisco more liberal than major European cities?
- luckylion 4y ago
  Hamburg just started enforcing that pan-handlers mustn't sit down. They haven't outlawed it, but they're pretty actively trying to not make it a common occurrence in the city center. Tent cities, completely open drug consumption, ignoring theft < 1000€, ignoring car break-ins etc would absolutely not fly here. You might get some of that on a local level in a very progressive district of Berlin, but not in other major German cities. So at least for Germany: yeah, I think it is.
  - kristofferR 4y ago
    That's not liberalism at all, that's just dumbness. You seem to label everything you dislike liberal. It's dumb to jail homeless and mentally ill people, but it's just as dumb to just stop jailing them without providing them the help they need. The most liberal cities in the world don't have big homeless and crime problems because help and housing is provided.
    - luckylion 4y ago
      > That's not liberalism at all, that's just dumbness. I don't know, I'm not the judge of that, but it sounds a bit like a very mobile goal post. Usually, "liberal policies" are removing or weakening penalties and enforcement. A liberal drug policy will decriminalize drug use. liberal = tolerant, so liberal policies tolerate a lot more things. And SF is in many regards more liberal than European cities. Whether it's your preferred kind of liberal politics, or whether it's combined with other effective policies etc, is a different question.
      - marvin 4y ago
        Would it be considered a liberal policy to tolerate someone walking into a store, conspicuously stealing ~$500 worth of goods, yelling, punching, and throwing furniture at anyone who confronts them and then returning the next day to do it again? To me that looks like a society that has completely abdicated its responsibility of using legal force to protect the rights and safety of its inhabitants, rather than just an honest disagreement on what variation in values and lifestyles that are accepted.
        luckylion 4y ago
        From where I'm sitting: yes, that would be considered liberal policy. It rejects the individual's responsibility and claims society is at fault for individual delinquency and should tolerate deviance. > To me that looks like a society that has completely abdicated its responsibility of using legal force to protect the rights and safety of its inhabitants, rather than just an honest disagreement on what variation in values and lifestyles that are accepted. It does to me, too, that's one of the reasons I moved to the suburbs, and it wasn't anywhere as bad as in SF and other US cities. But I felt that the priorities were backwards and I understood that the majority of people wanted them pushed further in the direction I considered wrong. So I moved, because why stay and suffer if you don't believe in those policies but most of your neighbors do?
        marvin 4y ago
        It’s hard to fathom a society where the majority will not defend themselves against literal violence. In a sense it’s closer to the original Christian ideal than most, but I don’t see how that can lead to peace, joy and prosperity long-term in a society where a minority abuses it.
      - triceratops 4y ago
        > Usually, "liberal policies" are removing or weakening penalties and enforcement. Are they? In the US "liberal policies" are also associated with higher taxation and government regulation. So which is it?
    - kolbe 4y ago
      > providing them the help they need. Statements like this seem to be exactly why people are frustrated with SF's policies. What is the "help they need" that will be sufficient to keep them from being a problem? I've known addicts and schizophrenics, and it's near impossible to fix them, even with an affluent and caring family to support them the whole way. What will an incompetent state actor possibly do that is better, other than just lock them up to keep them from harming others?
      - blog0r 4y ago
        basically the help they need is not becoming homeless in the first place. because the stress of that would make most people insane. once you go a few days without sleep, anyone is going to become psychotic. and then once you’ve been psychotic it just gets worse. so basically they just need basic housing and a place to wash their clothes. if you don’t want to give them that just kill them or stop complaining
        kolbe 4y ago
        You should submit your new baseless theory about schizophrenia and addition to the AMA. Sounds like you've solved this Nobel-worthy problem.
- blackshaw 4y ago
  Another comment in this thread said: > Since I moved [to SF], I have seen people break into cars (numerous times), fill suitcases with products from Target and Walgreens and leave without paying, casually smoke meth in a crowded bus, empty their bladder and bowels in the middle of the sidewalk, etc. all of this brazenly and in broad daylight. I'm not aware of any major European city where this kind of behaviour is tolerated, much less common.
- tazjin 4y ago
  I can confidently say that pretty much nothing I've heard about SF (haven't spent much time there myself other than passing through) would be tolerated in Moscow. It's unthinkable. The worst thing you run into here would be a drunk guy at night or something like that. Moscow isn't exactly an example of a liberal-leaning city though :) As for smaller cities in Europe like London or Berlin, they're also still reasonably safe (I didn't like night buses in London but that's about it) and the crazy stuff is mostly contained. I guess a huge part of this is that most countries over here at least have something resembling a working social system.
- hattmall 4y ago
  I don't know that it really falls under the normal definition of liberal. But it's certainly the epitome of American neo-liberal ideals. This isn't really the same as liberalism in Europe (yet). The bulk of the general problems in SF and the US can be correlated to the number of mental health beds available. In Europe most countries have a rate of around 120 per 100k. In Asia it's upwards of 300. In the US. It's around 12. Liberalism in the US heavily resists the usage of asylums and actually helping people in general. In Europe that's not really the case.
jacquesm 4y ago
You can have 'overtly liberal policy' without becoming like San Francisco, and you can have conservative policy without becoming Singapore. Those are outliers.
bsder 4y ago
Executing people for illegal drugs will almost certainly improve the situation in SF quite dramatically for those left alive afterward. Thankfully, the US and California are still Democracies for the moment. Anyone who tries to hold up Singapore as a beacon of "good governance" simply isn't working in reality ...
- waihtis 4y ago
  We will only know this in a 100 years or so.
astrange 4y ago
The SFPD just refuse to do work because they know refusal will cause people to blame it on "overtly liberal policy" and give them even more funding to do no work. (In the 70s they also once bombed the mayor's house when they didn't like him.)
- censor_me 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - lern_too_spel 4y ago
    The police aren't defunded in San Francisco. They have consistently gotten budget increases. It's just that instead of hiring more, they spend it on overtime pay (1.5X normal rate) for people driving around and doing nothing. https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/sfpd-pay-millions-more-for-officers-to-work-fewer-hours-why/ https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/sfpd-pay-millions-mo...
    - alach11 4y ago
      It's crazy how effective the narrative is that the police were "defunded" when you're in here dropping facts showing the opposite.
      - dpkirchner 4y ago
        Yup. It's crucial to flag the bad-faith rabble-rousers to ensure HN doesn't become as bad as, say, reddit.
        censor_me 4y ago
        [dead]
      - zdragnar 4y ago
        The article doesn't really support the post, though: " SF’s police department has 335 fewer full-duty police officers than it did in 2017, with a total of 1,537 officers as of January, according to Supervisor Matt Dorsey, a former police communications staffer. A police staffing analysis indicated that the department needs upward of 2,100 sworn officers to satisfy city demands. As fewer officers are available to patrol streets or respond to incidents, the department says it has been forced to ask staff to work longer hours or pick up extra shifts. " When the force is at 75% capacity, officers are overworked and deprioritizing non-emergency responses. It's a recipe for more George Floyds, not less.
nicolas_t 4y ago
I'd use Japan (Tokyo), Taiwan (Tai Pei) or Hong Kong (prior to 2014 and the CCP becoming increasingly authoritarian) as examples instead of Singapore. Singapore is extreme and I think other cities that are less extreme are actually nicer to live in (having either lived or spent time in all 4)
- re-thc 4y ago
  There's too much focus here (the discussion) on the law itself. The cities you mention have a different culture. It's ingrained into you as a kid. It's "less liberal" in the sense that the wider society doesn't accept these values. The media, your family and friends and other parts of the environment are a lot more effective than the law.
  - nicolas_t 4y ago
    That's a good point, I think group pressure is definitely a factor there. Just as an example, it would be inconceivable for someone who knows he's sick not to wear a mask when going to work because of the social pressure and opprobrium around those actions. On the other hand, I also know that in general in any of those countries, the consequences for something like shoplifting are a lot stronger than they would be in most western countries.
- nradov 4y ago
  In Taiwan the homeless rate is very low because having a homeless relative is shameful. Affluent people do whatever it takes to ensure that no one in their extended family is out on the street in order to save face, even if they don't particularly like those relatives. No such culture of family responsibility exists in the US. As an island nation, Taiwan also has a somewhat easier time preventing narcotics smuggling. Whereas the mainland Chinese Communist Party has covertly targeted the USA for "Opium War 2" by tacitly allowing the smuggling of fentanyl precursor chemicals to Mexican drug cartels.
  - otreblatercero 4y ago
    What's there on the other side(the US)? Mexico does not have a fentanyl problem here, maybe there are some American cartels over there in the US which are not being put on the spotlight because... who knows.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
re-thc 4y ago
> Compare San Francisco to somewhere like Singapore, and ask yourself where would you rather live Singapore
amrocha 4y ago
Singapore has social housing and minimal unemployment so maybe once SF gets there we can have this conversation.
- intalentive 4y ago
  I think they have a different drug policy too.
  - amrocha 4y ago
    Nobody is turning to drugs because they're left destitute on the streets in Singapore
MisterBastahrd 4y ago
SF's problem isn't liberal policies. It's the lack of them. The homeless problem is a prime example. Gentrification, NIMBYism, and a lack of affordable housing aren't "liberal."
- ideamotor 4y ago
  A lot of selfish libertarians in Austin think they are liberal, too. Hmm.
wing-_-nuts 4y ago
An overtly liberal policy doesn't mean you don't enforce the law. Look at major cities across the country. Most all of them are blue, even in deep red states, yet SF and LA are the only cities I know of with homelessness and crime being this bad. This isn't 'liberal policies', this is corruption and ineptitude.
- all2 4y ago
  > An overtly liberal policy doesn't mean you don't enforce the law. But hasn't the hue and cry been "defund the police"? We heard it as far back as the mostly peaceful protests that ravaged major US cities across the US in 2020-21. And it's been the chant of mostly left-leaning politicians and organizations.
  - wing-_-nuts 4y ago
    'defund the police' has literally only been uttered seriously within the blm movement. Even the most progressive of politicians knew it was dead on arrival.
    - telotortium 4y ago
      Sure, they may have known that "defund the police" couldn't last, but during the summer of 2020, progressive politicians took it seriously enough in public (much of it due to BLM). We got CHAZ in Seattle, Antifa trying to burn down federal buildings and police stations, and progressive DAs (e.g., Chesa Boudin) at the time decided to severely reduce the penalties that they would pursue for even serious crime. A few cities even got around to attempting to redirect funding from police to social workers and the like. Progressive politicians continued to take "defund the police" seriously until the fall, when it was clear that the issue had turned an easy election for Biden into a close election that he was at significant risk of losing. All of this indicated to criminals that law enforcement would be much lighter, which is why crime skyrocketed during that time and has continued to stay elevated until this day
    - augment001 4y ago
      [dead]

Hamuko 4y ago

Is San Francisco more liberal than major European cities?

luckylion 4y ago
Hamburg just started enforcing that pan-handlers mustn't sit down. They haven't outlawed it, but they're pretty actively trying to not make it a common occurrence in the city center. Tent cities, completely open drug consumption, ignoring theft < 1000€, ignoring car break-ins etc would absolutely not fly here. You might get some of that on a local level in a very progressive district of Berlin, but not in other major German cities. So at least for Germany: yeah, I think it is.
- kristofferR 4y ago
  That's not liberalism at all, that's just dumbness. You seem to label everything you dislike liberal. It's dumb to jail homeless and mentally ill people, but it's just as dumb to just stop jailing them without providing them the help they need. The most liberal cities in the world don't have big homeless and crime problems because help and housing is provided.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    > That's not liberalism at all, that's just dumbness. I don't know, I'm not the judge of that, but it sounds a bit like a very mobile goal post. Usually, "liberal policies" are removing or weakening penalties and enforcement. A liberal drug policy will decriminalize drug use. liberal = tolerant, so liberal policies tolerate a lot more things. And SF is in many regards more liberal than European cities. Whether it's your preferred kind of liberal politics, or whether it's combined with other effective policies etc, is a different question.
    - marvin 4y ago
      Would it be considered a liberal policy to tolerate someone walking into a store, conspicuously stealing ~$500 worth of goods, yelling, punching, and throwing furniture at anyone who confronts them and then returning the next day to do it again? To me that looks like a society that has completely abdicated its responsibility of using legal force to protect the rights and safety of its inhabitants, rather than just an honest disagreement on what variation in values and lifestyles that are accepted.
      - luckylion 4y ago
        From where I'm sitting: yes, that would be considered liberal policy. It rejects the individual's responsibility and claims society is at fault for individual delinquency and should tolerate deviance. > To me that looks like a society that has completely abdicated its responsibility of using legal force to protect the rights and safety of its inhabitants, rather than just an honest disagreement on what variation in values and lifestyles that are accepted. It does to me, too, that's one of the reasons I moved to the suburbs, and it wasn't anywhere as bad as in SF and other US cities. But I felt that the priorities were backwards and I understood that the majority of people wanted them pushed further in the direction I considered wrong. So I moved, because why stay and suffer if you don't believe in those policies but most of your neighbors do?
        marvin 4y ago
        It’s hard to fathom a society where the majority will not defend themselves against literal violence. In a sense it’s closer to the original Christian ideal than most, but I don’t see how that can lead to peace, joy and prosperity long-term in a society where a minority abuses it.
    - triceratops 4y ago
      > Usually, "liberal policies" are removing or weakening penalties and enforcement. Are they? In the US "liberal policies" are also associated with higher taxation and government regulation. So which is it?
  - kolbe 4y ago
    > providing them the help they need. Statements like this seem to be exactly why people are frustrated with SF's policies. What is the "help they need" that will be sufficient to keep them from being a problem? I've known addicts and schizophrenics, and it's near impossible to fix them, even with an affluent and caring family to support them the whole way. What will an incompetent state actor possibly do that is better, other than just lock them up to keep them from harming others?
    - blog0r 4y ago
      basically the help they need is not becoming homeless in the first place. because the stress of that would make most people insane. once you go a few days without sleep, anyone is going to become psychotic. and then once you’ve been psychotic it just gets worse. so basically they just need basic housing and a place to wash their clothes. if you don’t want to give them that just kill them or stop complaining
      - kolbe 4y ago
        You should submit your new baseless theory about schizophrenia and addition to the AMA. Sounds like you've solved this Nobel-worthy problem.
blackshaw 4y ago
Another comment in this thread said: > Since I moved [to SF], I have seen people break into cars (numerous times), fill suitcases with products from Target and Walgreens and leave without paying, casually smoke meth in a crowded bus, empty their bladder and bowels in the middle of the sidewalk, etc. all of this brazenly and in broad daylight. I'm not aware of any major European city where this kind of behaviour is tolerated, much less common.
tazjin 4y ago
I can confidently say that pretty much nothing I've heard about SF (haven't spent much time there myself other than passing through) would be tolerated in Moscow. It's unthinkable. The worst thing you run into here would be a drunk guy at night or something like that. Moscow isn't exactly an example of a liberal-leaning city though :) As for smaller cities in Europe like London or Berlin, they're also still reasonably safe (I didn't like night buses in London but that's about it) and the crazy stuff is mostly contained. I guess a huge part of this is that most countries over here at least have something resembling a working social system.
hattmall 4y ago
I don't know that it really falls under the normal definition of liberal. But it's certainly the epitome of American neo-liberal ideals. This isn't really the same as liberalism in Europe (yet). The bulk of the general problems in SF and the US can be correlated to the number of mental health beds available. In Europe most countries have a rate of around 120 per 100k. In Asia it's upwards of 300. In the US. It's around 12. Liberalism in the US heavily resists the usage of asylums and actually helping people in general. In Europe that's not really the case.

jacquesm 4y ago

You can have 'overtly liberal policy' without becoming like San Francisco, and you can have conservative policy without becoming Singapore. Those are outliers.

bsder 4y ago

Executing people for illegal drugs will almost certainly improve the situation in SF quite dramatically for those left alive afterward. Thankfully, the US and California are still Democracies for the moment. Anyone who tries to hold up Singapore as a beacon of "good governance" simply isn't working in reality ...

waihtis 4y ago
We will only know this in a 100 years or so.

astrange 4y ago

The SFPD just refuse to do work because they know refusal will cause people to blame it on "overtly liberal policy" and give them even more funding to do no work. (In the 70s they also once bombed the mayor's house when they didn't like him.)

censor_me 4y ago
[flagged]
- lern_too_spel 4y ago
  The police aren't defunded in San Francisco. They have consistently gotten budget increases. It's just that instead of hiring more, they spend it on overtime pay (1.5X normal rate) for people driving around and doing nothing. https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/sfpd-pay-millions-more-for-officers-to-work-fewer-hours-why/ https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/sfpd-pay-millions-mo...
  - alach11 4y ago
    It's crazy how effective the narrative is that the police were "defunded" when you're in here dropping facts showing the opposite.
    - dpkirchner 4y ago
      Yup. It's crucial to flag the bad-faith rabble-rousers to ensure HN doesn't become as bad as, say, reddit.
      - censor_me 4y ago
        [dead]
    - zdragnar 4y ago
      The article doesn't really support the post, though: " SF’s police department has 335 fewer full-duty police officers than it did in 2017, with a total of 1,537 officers as of January, according to Supervisor Matt Dorsey, a former police communications staffer. A police staffing analysis indicated that the department needs upward of 2,100 sworn officers to satisfy city demands. As fewer officers are available to patrol streets or respond to incidents, the department says it has been forced to ask staff to work longer hours or pick up extra shifts. " When the force is at 75% capacity, officers are overworked and deprioritizing non-emergency responses. It's a recipe for more George Floyds, not less.

nicolas_t 4y ago

I'd use Japan (Tokyo), Taiwan (Tai Pei) or Hong Kong (prior to 2014 and the CCP becoming increasingly authoritarian) as examples instead of Singapore. Singapore is extreme and I think other cities that are less extreme are actually nicer to live in (having either lived or spent time in all 4)

re-thc 4y ago
There's too much focus here (the discussion) on the law itself. The cities you mention have a different culture. It's ingrained into you as a kid. It's "less liberal" in the sense that the wider society doesn't accept these values. The media, your family and friends and other parts of the environment are a lot more effective than the law.
- nicolas_t 4y ago
  That's a good point, I think group pressure is definitely a factor there. Just as an example, it would be inconceivable for someone who knows he's sick not to wear a mask when going to work because of the social pressure and opprobrium around those actions. On the other hand, I also know that in general in any of those countries, the consequences for something like shoplifting are a lot stronger than they would be in most western countries.
nradov 4y ago
In Taiwan the homeless rate is very low because having a homeless relative is shameful. Affluent people do whatever it takes to ensure that no one in their extended family is out on the street in order to save face, even if they don't particularly like those relatives. No such culture of family responsibility exists in the US. As an island nation, Taiwan also has a somewhat easier time preventing narcotics smuggling. Whereas the mainland Chinese Communist Party has covertly targeted the USA for "Opium War 2" by tacitly allowing the smuggling of fentanyl precursor chemicals to Mexican drug cartels.
- otreblatercero 4y ago
  What's there on the other side(the US)? Mexico does not have a fentanyl problem here, maybe there are some American cartels over there in the US which are not being put on the spotlight because... who knows.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

re-thc 4y ago

> Compare San Francisco to somewhere like Singapore, and ask yourself where would you rather live Singapore

amrocha 4y ago

Singapore has social housing and minimal unemployment so maybe once SF gets there we can have this conversation.

intalentive 4y ago
I think they have a different drug policy too.
- amrocha 4y ago
  Nobody is turning to drugs because they're left destitute on the streets in Singapore

MisterBastahrd 4y ago

SF's problem isn't liberal policies. It's the lack of them. The homeless problem is a prime example. Gentrification, NIMBYism, and a lack of affordable housing aren't "liberal."

ideamotor 4y ago
A lot of selfish libertarians in Austin think they are liberal, too. Hmm.

wing-_-nuts 4y ago

An overtly liberal policy doesn't mean you don't enforce the law. Look at major cities across the country. Most all of them are blue, even in deep red states, yet SF and LA are the only cities I know of with homelessness and crime being this bad. This isn't 'liberal policies', this is corruption and ineptitude.

all2 4y ago
> An overtly liberal policy doesn't mean you don't enforce the law. But hasn't the hue and cry been "defund the police"? We heard it as far back as the mostly peaceful protests that ravaged major US cities across the US in 2020-21. And it's been the chant of mostly left-leaning politicians and organizations.
- wing-_-nuts 4y ago
  'defund the police' has literally only been uttered seriously within the blm movement. Even the most progressive of politicians knew it was dead on arrival.
  - telotortium 4y ago
    Sure, they may have known that "defund the police" couldn't last, but during the summer of 2020, progressive politicians took it seriously enough in public (much of it due to BLM). We got CHAZ in Seattle, Antifa trying to burn down federal buildings and police stations, and progressive DAs (e.g., Chesa Boudin) at the time decided to severely reduce the penalties that they would pursue for even serious crime. A few cities even got around to attempting to redirect funding from police to social workers and the like. Progressive politicians continued to take "defund the police" seriously until the fall, when it was clear that the issue had turned an easy election for Biden into a close election that he was at significant risk of losing. All of this indicated to criminals that law enforcement would be much lighter, which is why crime skyrocketed during that time and has continued to stay elevated until this day
  - augment001 4y ago
    [dead]