8 ms·

Funny how people try so hard to show/prove/argue that SF is safe. If it was, these discussions wouldn’t exist. You won’t see these threads about Zurich, just

Funny how people try so hard to show/prove/argue that SF is safe. If it was, these discussions wouldn’t exist. You won’t see these threads about Zurich, just saying.

EdwardDiego 3y ago
I'm pretty sure you would see these threads about Zürich if you were in a net community that has a substantial proportion of members living in or near Zürich.
- tomandrews88 3y ago
  I spend a lot of time in Zurich, and I’m in tech. Lotta googlers there. I haven’t seen any discussions like this about Zurich yet. When someone says Zurich is quite safe people nod and move on. It’s not news and it’s not controversial.
  - EdwardDiego 3y ago
    Have you accounted for all confounding factors though? From my experiences of Germany, their news cycle isn't as hype-driven as the US's, I imagine Switzerland is even more restrained.
- Kenji 3y ago
  [dead]
- ben_w 3y ago
  I tried looking up comparative crime rates; closest I could find was that for homicide, SF is 5 times worse per capita than Switzerland. For a sense of scale for anyone who hasn't been, Switzerland has tax funded drinkable water fountains basically everywhere, and (if you will excuse the surprising conjunction) rolls of free bags for dog poo mounted on the dog poo bins which are also basically everywhere.
  - EdwardDiego 3y ago
    I'm not surprised, there's a lot more inequality in the US than in Switzerland. Only point I was trying to make is that this statement is reductio ad absurdum: > Funny how people try so hard to show/prove/argue that SF is safe. If it was, these discussions wouldn’t exist. Given the significant overlap between "people who live in or near SF because they work in tech, with a strong history of startups" and "people who discuss things on HN, a website about tech, with a strong history of startups", it's entirely unsurprising that people would discuss SF crime rates on HN, and the fact that they do so can't be construed as any form of evidence for any position. Sigh, I'm not even trying to affirm or deny anything about SF, I've only been there once, met some lovely homeless people, and some very unwell ones.
    - ben_w 3y ago
      That's fair. I've been to SF a few times, though most recently in 2018 and I don't know the place well enough to name the districts without Google helping.
      - EdwardDiego 3y ago
        My only time there, in town for some fancy proprietary DB training, the only accommodation I could get (due to a Salesforce conference) was right beside the Tenderloin. That was an experience.
- kuboble 3y ago
  But the Swiss cities are so safe that people let 6yo kids go to school alone through the city center. At night you can just go out and walk through the city with virtually no risk.
- Manjuuu 3y ago
  You have no idea of how boringly safe Zurich is. You don't get stabbed in the streets there, you just don't. Also, it's full of tech companies.
  - EdwardDiego 3y ago
    https://www.google.com/m?q=zuerich+stabbing https://www.google.com/m?q=zuerich+stabbing Obviously some people do get stabbed in the streets there.
    - alwe 3y ago
      some people get stabbed BY AMERICANS there .. just saying, in case you did not see the google results
      - EdwardDiego 3y ago
        Scroll further and keep reading. Also, note that my first search was in English. Try it in German, or French to get even more results. E.g., "Zürich Messerstecherei" or "Zürich erstochen" will yield far more relevant results like this one: https://www.20min.ch/story/erneut-messerstecherei-in-zuerich-16-und-18-jaehriger-mittelschwer-verletzt-123428336061 https://www.20min.ch/story/erneut-messerstecherei-in-zuerich... "Erneut Messerstecherei in Zürich" roughly translates to "Another stabbing in Zürich".
    - Manjuuu 3y ago
      Accept that the two cities are not comparable in regard to crime, your reasoning above was flawed. Really, it's so safe that it feels weird, especially at night.
      - EdwardDiego 3y ago
        I didn't even bring up Zürich, the person I was replying to did. And I'm not trying to claim that it's comparable. The only point I was trying to make is that this statement is reductio ad absurdum: > Funny how people try so hard to show/prove/argue that SF is safe. If it was, these discussions wouldn’t exist. Given the significant overlap between "people who live in or near SF because they work in tech, with a strong history of startups" and "people who discuss things on HN, a website about tech, with a strong history of startups", it's entirely unsurprising that people would discuss SF crime rates on HN, and the fact that they do so can't be construed as any form of evidence for any position. I am pretty sure that when there is a stabbing in Zürich, locals will discuss it in their relevant online communities. Sigh, I'm not even trying to affirm or deny anything about SF, I've only been there once, met some lovely homeless people, and some very unwell ones.
Sponge5 3y ago
For Zurich this might be true, but there are definitely examples of European cities where the safety debate happens regularly (at least in my personal circles). Brussels and Paris come to mind with their explicit no-go zones and Naples and Rome are notorious for their pickpockets. Even Honest Guide[1], which is the main guide for my city, has half of its' videos dedicated to scams. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/@HONESTGUIDE https://www.youtube.com/@HONESTGUIDE
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  The claim isn't that European cities are safe. The claim is that you don't see arguments over whether safe cities are safe.
  - davidkuennen 3y ago
    Never thought about it like this. Yeah, nobody would question the safety of many European cities even if something like this were to happen. It would be considered a freak incident.
- bjornsing 3y ago
  Here in Sweden there’s very intensive public debate on the subject.
  - TMWNN 3y ago
    It was just a few years ago that bien-pensants denounced Trump for repeating what others (including the authorities [1]) had said about no-go zones in Europe. I have since observed a slow but steady change in the European zeitgeist for what is happening, with a perceptible acceleration since Trump's departure from the White House; presumably, it is less embarrassing to acknowledge that he might have been right when he is no longer in office. [1] <https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-security-police/french-police-angry-at-no-go-zones-after-petrol-bomb-attack-idUSKCN12A1WS https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-security-police/fr...> <http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-terror-attacks-visiting-molenbeek-the-police-no-go-zone-that-was-home-to-two-of-the-gunmen-a6735551.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-terror-...>, for example
trompetenaccoun 3y ago
The existence of the problem and people denying it are intrinsically linked. You see similar developments in other big cites and it's not just limited to the US either but a phenomenon all over the Western world. Look at Britain and the cover up of those horrific gang rapes for many years. Ideology is the problem. There are many who base their worldview not on reality but rather what they wish to be true.
- joenot443 3y ago
  This is precisely the problem. SF is the perfect example of a city where a singular political ideology has remained in control for decades, and what we’re witnessing now is the fallout to that. How can we ever change when it involves admitting that much of what people once championed about SF is exactly what’s killing it now? It takes a lot to admit you were wrong, and it’s not the kind of thing I typically expect from the kind of folks well invested in ideologically driven politics.
  - gjulianm 3y ago
    What is the ideology? I’m asking honestly because from the perspective of an European, what the US calls “left” would usually be center or even center right here in my country.
    - popularrecluse 3y ago
      You'll never get a straight answer because San Francisco represents nothing more to them than a symbolic confirmation of whatever bias they already had. They'll ignore mitigating factors that might not fit their narrative - things like the Reagan repeal of MHSA, the bussing of 'problem' citizenry from other states to SF, police 'quiet quitting', among countless others. Truth is, there's plenty of blame to go around, but one side deals in bad faith because they like it to be this way because it makes them feel right.
      - joenot443 3y ago
        I gave a straight answer to the GP, it's too bad you felt the need to answer for me. It sounds like you've been in a lot of bad faith discussions around this topic, which is unfortunate and I'm sorry for. For the record, I'm a Canadian on visa, so if you were somehow reading my comment as some insidious GOP propaganda, you're sadly mistaken. In my limited opinion, both of your country's parties are broken in their own way, but in my experience living there, neither of them are as broken as the local politics in SF.
somedude895 3y ago
This also happened when Trump said there were no-go zones in some European cities. The MSM instantly "fact checked" his claims and said he was lying. Fast forward a couple of years and now even those countries' governments admit that those zones do in fact exist.
- aembleton 3y ago
  Are there any in the UK? I've not heard of them.
  - secondcoming 3y ago
    There used be several in London but I assume gentrification has changed that.
  - melx 3y ago
    Not really. I think it boils down that most cities (and their areas) in the UK are mixed: so you have few streets of expensive houses, and next to it could be a council estate.. In Paris for example, it's not so mixed and you will get whole districts that are poor and deprived. These districts are usually inhabited by immigrants, and forgotten by local govs. Hence the so called "no-go" zones.
- jbu 3y ago
  I live in (as I remember it) the prime example here. Birmingham UK. There were many articles about it some years ago. So, to fact check from the ground, there are no no-go areas. We're multi-cultural, and we do it well.
  - localplume 3y ago
    [dead]
  - Quarrel 3y ago
    Na mate, you have sharia law, I heard it on the tele. /s I can't believe people are still sprouting this crap.
ryan_lane 3y ago
You're seeing this story because it's about someone related to the tech industry, specifically someone like you. The murder rate in SF is extremely low. Violent crime as a whole is extremely low. If a tech founder got stabbed in Zurich, you would indeed see a story just like this.
- kenneth 3y ago
  Tech founders don't get stabbed in Zurich. In fact, basically nobody gets stabbed in Zurich. They do in SF. In contrast, 6.5% of the population in SF is the victim of crime every year.
  - ryan_lane 3y ago
    6.5% is the victim of a crime, but not of a violent crime.
- Hoyadonis 3y ago
  > Violent crime as a whole is extremely low. This is such an exaggeration, it's a borderline lie.
- mjfl 3y ago
  except tech founders don't get stabbed in Zurich. Not a single one.
  - tomandrews88 3y ago
    Shhh! Don’t talk logic. He doesn’t like that.
- joenot443 3y ago
  For those curious, SF has the 37th highest violent crime rate of anywhere in the country actually, far ahead of Seattle, St Paul, and Vegas. Number 2 for property theft though!
  - ryan_lane 3y ago
lordnacho 3y ago
It's OOM worse in SF than any other city I've spent time in, including Zurich. For comparison, I've spent maybe a month in SF put together over the last few years: - In 30 days, I met more than 30 mentally ill people in SF. 40 Years everywhere else, I saw one old lady with dementia once in Copenhagen. And a few randoms few and far between in London. By mentally ill I mean the kind of ill where you're shouting nonsense in public. - Then there's the guy who is aggressively threatening his imaginary friends. Seems to be a SF creature, doesn't seem drunk or stoned, just nuts. Even these guys outnumber the drunk/stoned nutters I've met in Europe in the last few years. I ran into them often, trying to stay away since you know... - SF seemed like you were never more than 2 minutes away from someone with lower level mental health problems. I sat down in a Starbucks and realised I was hearing Cantonese from somewhere. Turned around it was some middle aged woman swearing while having a conversation with herself. But she wasn't in the category above. - Never saw any crime but I've seen the shoplifting videos. That would not pass in Zurich. Probably not most places though I wonder if Metropolitan Police would get their act together. - Extreme distress behavior like stealing food, never saw it anywhere else. In SF someone ran in to grab my leftovers when I was done eating. Not the same as a safety issue, but you can see how people might feel unsafe with that kind of thing happening. - Generally an extreme level of inequality in living conditions might make people feel unsafe. I mean there were people on the street with no shoes, walking around Nordstrom department store in town centre. Of course it's a long way between safety stats and feeling safe. I would guess if you're living in Sweden right now, you are safe despite the rocketing murder rate, providing you're not involved in organised crime. You might not feel that way and yes there's going to be innocents caught up with it. But safe means a lot of things.
- eric-hu 3y ago
  For anyone else wondering, OOM is probably orders of magnitude.
  - w-m 3y ago
    Thank you. Neither out of mana, nor what a dyslexic cow says, nor that your spectrum hobbit has fucking crashed again where helping me here: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=oom https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=oom
zhdc1 3y ago
> You won’t see these threads about Zurich, just saying. Nope. Taking a train from Zürich HB to Bellinzona for the holiday. The train is full. My suitcase is in the next car. It will be there, untouched, when I get off in an hour or so.
- sschueller 3y ago
  You are taking a very high risk. I have caught thieves stealing laptops from suitcases on this route.
  - zhdc1 3y ago
    Everything is right where it should be : )
    - helf 3y ago
      [dead]
- tomandrews88 3y ago
  Nice! In Japan you can leave your laptop in the cafe while you go to the bathroom. This should NOT be amazing. Why do people find this amazing? This should be the norm. Sadly, SF people find it amazing.
sureglymop 3y ago
Zürich certainly has dicey areas and such events happening. It is however, a much much smaller city. I don't know if it really makes a lot of sense to compare the two.
- tomandrews88 3y ago
  > I don't know if it really makes a lot of sense to compare the two. Certainly in terms of crime, it doesn’t

Funny how people try so hard to show/prove/argue that SF is safe. If it was, these discussions wouldn’t exist. You won’t see these threads about Zurich, just saying.

EdwardDiego 3y ago

I'm pretty sure you would see these threads about Zürich if you were in a net community that has a substantial proportion of members living in or near Zürich.

tomandrews88 3y ago
I spend a lot of time in Zurich, and I’m in tech. Lotta googlers there. I haven’t seen any discussions like this about Zurich yet. When someone says Zurich is quite safe people nod and move on. It’s not news and it’s not controversial.
- EdwardDiego 3y ago
  Have you accounted for all confounding factors though? From my experiences of Germany, their news cycle isn't as hype-driven as the US's, I imagine Switzerland is even more restrained.
Kenji 3y ago
[dead]
ben_w 3y ago
I tried looking up comparative crime rates; closest I could find was that for homicide, SF is 5 times worse per capita than Switzerland. For a sense of scale for anyone who hasn't been, Switzerland has tax funded drinkable water fountains basically everywhere, and (if you will excuse the surprising conjunction) rolls of free bags for dog poo mounted on the dog poo bins which are also basically everywhere.
- EdwardDiego 3y ago
  I'm not surprised, there's a lot more inequality in the US than in Switzerland. Only point I was trying to make is that this statement is reductio ad absurdum: > Funny how people try so hard to show/prove/argue that SF is safe. If it was, these discussions wouldn’t exist. Given the significant overlap between "people who live in or near SF because they work in tech, with a strong history of startups" and "people who discuss things on HN, a website about tech, with a strong history of startups", it's entirely unsurprising that people would discuss SF crime rates on HN, and the fact that they do so can't be construed as any form of evidence for any position. Sigh, I'm not even trying to affirm or deny anything about SF, I've only been there once, met some lovely homeless people, and some very unwell ones.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    That's fair. I've been to SF a few times, though most recently in 2018 and I don't know the place well enough to name the districts without Google helping.
    - EdwardDiego 3y ago
      My only time there, in town for some fancy proprietary DB training, the only accommodation I could get (due to a Salesforce conference) was right beside the Tenderloin. That was an experience.
kuboble 3y ago
But the Swiss cities are so safe that people let 6yo kids go to school alone through the city center. At night you can just go out and walk through the city with virtually no risk.
Manjuuu 3y ago
You have no idea of how boringly safe Zurich is. You don't get stabbed in the streets there, you just don't. Also, it's full of tech companies.
- EdwardDiego 3y ago
  https://www.google.com/m?q=zuerich+stabbing https://www.google.com/m?q=zuerich+stabbing Obviously some people do get stabbed in the streets there.
  - alwe 3y ago
    some people get stabbed BY AMERICANS there .. just saying, in case you did not see the google results
    - EdwardDiego 3y ago
      Scroll further and keep reading. Also, note that my first search was in English. Try it in German, or French to get even more results. E.g., "Zürich Messerstecherei" or "Zürich erstochen" will yield far more relevant results like this one: https://www.20min.ch/story/erneut-messerstecherei-in-zuerich-16-und-18-jaehriger-mittelschwer-verletzt-123428336061 https://www.20min.ch/story/erneut-messerstecherei-in-zuerich... "Erneut Messerstecherei in Zürich" roughly translates to "Another stabbing in Zürich".
  - Manjuuu 3y ago
    Accept that the two cities are not comparable in regard to crime, your reasoning above was flawed. Really, it's so safe that it feels weird, especially at night.
    - EdwardDiego 3y ago
      I didn't even bring up Zürich, the person I was replying to did. And I'm not trying to claim that it's comparable. The only point I was trying to make is that this statement is reductio ad absurdum: > Funny how people try so hard to show/prove/argue that SF is safe. If it was, these discussions wouldn’t exist. Given the significant overlap between "people who live in or near SF because they work in tech, with a strong history of startups" and "people who discuss things on HN, a website about tech, with a strong history of startups", it's entirely unsurprising that people would discuss SF crime rates on HN, and the fact that they do so can't be construed as any form of evidence for any position. I am pretty sure that when there is a stabbing in Zürich, locals will discuss it in their relevant online communities. Sigh, I'm not even trying to affirm or deny anything about SF, I've only been there once, met some lovely homeless people, and some very unwell ones.

Sponge5 3y ago

For Zurich this might be true, but there are definitely examples of European cities where the safety debate happens regularly (at least in my personal circles). Brussels and Paris come to mind with their explicit no-go zones and Naples and Rome are notorious for their pickpockets. Even Honest Guide[1], which is the main guide for my city, has half of its' videos dedicated to scams. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/@HONESTGUIDE https://www.youtube.com/@HONESTGUIDE

thaumasiotes 3y ago
The claim isn't that European cities are safe. The claim is that you don't see arguments over whether safe cities are safe.
- davidkuennen 3y ago
  Never thought about it like this. Yeah, nobody would question the safety of many European cities even if something like this were to happen. It would be considered a freak incident.
bjornsing 3y ago
Here in Sweden there’s very intensive public debate on the subject.
- TMWNN 3y ago
  It was just a few years ago that bien-pensants denounced Trump for repeating what others (including the authorities [1]) had said about no-go zones in Europe. I have since observed a slow but steady change in the European zeitgeist for what is happening, with a perceptible acceleration since Trump's departure from the White House; presumably, it is less embarrassing to acknowledge that he might have been right when he is no longer in office. [1] <https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-security-police/french-police-angry-at-no-go-zones-after-petrol-bomb-attack-idUSKCN12A1WS https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-security-police/fr...> <http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-terror-attacks-visiting-molenbeek-the-police-no-go-zone-that-was-home-to-two-of-the-gunmen-a6735551.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-terror-...>, for example

trompetenaccoun 3y ago

The existence of the problem and people denying it are intrinsically linked. You see similar developments in other big cites and it's not just limited to the US either but a phenomenon all over the Western world. Look at Britain and the cover up of those horrific gang rapes for many years. Ideology is the problem. There are many who base their worldview not on reality but rather what they wish to be true.

joenot443 3y ago
This is precisely the problem. SF is the perfect example of a city where a singular political ideology has remained in control for decades, and what we’re witnessing now is the fallout to that. How can we ever change when it involves admitting that much of what people once championed about SF is exactly what’s killing it now? It takes a lot to admit you were wrong, and it’s not the kind of thing I typically expect from the kind of folks well invested in ideologically driven politics.
- gjulianm 3y ago
  What is the ideology? I’m asking honestly because from the perspective of an European, what the US calls “left” would usually be center or even center right here in my country.
  - popularrecluse 3y ago
    You'll never get a straight answer because San Francisco represents nothing more to them than a symbolic confirmation of whatever bias they already had. They'll ignore mitigating factors that might not fit their narrative - things like the Reagan repeal of MHSA, the bussing of 'problem' citizenry from other states to SF, police 'quiet quitting', among countless others. Truth is, there's plenty of blame to go around, but one side deals in bad faith because they like it to be this way because it makes them feel right.
    - joenot443 3y ago
      I gave a straight answer to the GP, it's too bad you felt the need to answer for me. It sounds like you've been in a lot of bad faith discussions around this topic, which is unfortunate and I'm sorry for. For the record, I'm a Canadian on visa, so if you were somehow reading my comment as some insidious GOP propaganda, you're sadly mistaken. In my limited opinion, both of your country's parties are broken in their own way, but in my experience living there, neither of them are as broken as the local politics in SF.

somedude895 3y ago

This also happened when Trump said there were no-go zones in some European cities. The MSM instantly "fact checked" his claims and said he was lying. Fast forward a couple of years and now even those countries' governments admit that those zones do in fact exist.

aembleton 3y ago
Are there any in the UK? I've not heard of them.
- secondcoming 3y ago
  There used be several in London but I assume gentrification has changed that.
- melx 3y ago
  Not really. I think it boils down that most cities (and their areas) in the UK are mixed: so you have few streets of expensive houses, and next to it could be a council estate.. In Paris for example, it's not so mixed and you will get whole districts that are poor and deprived. These districts are usually inhabited by immigrants, and forgotten by local govs. Hence the so called "no-go" zones.
jbu 3y ago
I live in (as I remember it) the prime example here. Birmingham UK. There were many articles about it some years ago. So, to fact check from the ground, there are no no-go areas. We're multi-cultural, and we do it well.
- localplume 3y ago
  [dead]
- Quarrel 3y ago
  Na mate, you have sharia law, I heard it on the tele. /s I can't believe people are still sprouting this crap.

ryan_lane 3y ago

You're seeing this story because it's about someone related to the tech industry, specifically someone like you. The murder rate in SF is extremely low. Violent crime as a whole is extremely low. If a tech founder got stabbed in Zurich, you would indeed see a story just like this.

kenneth 3y ago
Tech founders don't get stabbed in Zurich. In fact, basically nobody gets stabbed in Zurich. They do in SF. In contrast, 6.5% of the population in SF is the victim of crime every year.
- ryan_lane 3y ago
  6.5% is the victim of a crime, but not of a violent crime.
Hoyadonis 3y ago
> Violent crime as a whole is extremely low. This is such an exaggeration, it's a borderline lie.
mjfl 3y ago
except tech founders don't get stabbed in Zurich. Not a single one.
- tomandrews88 3y ago
  Shhh! Don’t talk logic. He doesn’t like that.
joenot443 3y ago
For those curious, SF has the 37th highest violent crime rate of anywhere in the country actually, far ahead of Seattle, St Paul, and Vegas. Number 2 for property theft though!
- ryan_lane 3y ago

lordnacho 3y ago

It's OOM worse in SF than any other city I've spent time in, including Zurich. For comparison, I've spent maybe a month in SF put together over the last few years: - In 30 days, I met more than 30 mentally ill people in SF. 40 Years everywhere else, I saw one old lady with dementia once in Copenhagen. And a few randoms few and far between in London. By mentally ill I mean the kind of ill where you're shouting nonsense in public. - Then there's the guy who is aggressively threatening his imaginary friends. Seems to be a SF creature, doesn't seem drunk or stoned, just nuts. Even these guys outnumber the drunk/stoned nutters I've met in Europe in the last few years. I ran into them often, trying to stay away since you know... - SF seemed like you were never more than 2 minutes away from someone with lower level mental health problems. I sat down in a Starbucks and realised I was hearing Cantonese from somewhere. Turned around it was some middle aged woman swearing while having a conversation with herself. But she wasn't in the category above. - Never saw any crime but I've seen the shoplifting videos. That would not pass in Zurich. Probably not most places though I wonder if Metropolitan Police would get their act together. - Extreme distress behavior like stealing food, never saw it anywhere else. In SF someone ran in to grab my leftovers when I was done eating. Not the same as a safety issue, but you can see how people might feel unsafe with that kind of thing happening. - Generally an extreme level of inequality in living conditions might make people feel unsafe. I mean there were people on the street with no shoes, walking around Nordstrom department store in town centre. Of course it's a long way between safety stats and feeling safe. I would guess if you're living in Sweden right now, you are safe despite the rocketing murder rate, providing you're not involved in organised crime. You might not feel that way and yes there's going to be innocents caught up with it. But safe means a lot of things.

eric-hu 3y ago
For anyone else wondering, OOM is probably orders of magnitude.
- w-m 3y ago
  Thank you. Neither out of mana, nor what a dyslexic cow says, nor that your spectrum hobbit has fucking crashed again where helping me here: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=oom https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=oom

zhdc1 3y ago

> You won’t see these threads about Zurich, just saying. Nope. Taking a train from Zürich HB to Bellinzona for the holiday. The train is full. My suitcase is in the next car. It will be there, untouched, when I get off in an hour or so.

sschueller 3y ago
You are taking a very high risk. I have caught thieves stealing laptops from suitcases on this route.
- zhdc1 3y ago
  Everything is right where it should be : )
  - helf 3y ago
    [dead]
tomandrews88 3y ago
Nice! In Japan you can leave your laptop in the cafe while you go to the bathroom. This should NOT be amazing. Why do people find this amazing? This should be the norm. Sadly, SF people find it amazing.

sureglymop 3y ago

Zürich certainly has dicey areas and such events happening. It is however, a much much smaller city. I don't know if it really makes a lot of sense to compare the two.

tomandrews88 3y ago
> I don't know if it really makes a lot of sense to compare the two. Certainly in terms of crime, it doesn’t