6 ms·

PWAs could be made to not suck. But Apple and Google don’t exactly have a huge incentive to do that. Plus pushing users through an app store at least enforces

PWAs could be made to not suck. But Apple and Google don’t exactly have a huge incentive to do that. Plus pushing users through an app store at least enforces a minimum standard of app quality, which as a user, I like.

scarface74 4y ago
“This time we can make an app based on web technologies for real!” - it failed when Palm tried it - it failed when Microsoft tried it - it failed when RIM tried it - the “sweet solution” that Steve Jobs called web apps when the iPhone was introduced was called a “shit sandwich” by potential developers who wanted native apps. On another note, in the history of computing, all cross platform GUI apps have always sucked.
- orange8 4y ago
  > “This time we can make an app based on web technologies for real!” > - it failed when Microsoft tried it VS Code is one of the most successful open source cross platform GUI apps of all time. Who would have thought that good ol' HTML would finally fulfill the promise of "build once, run everywhere".
  - illiarian 4y ago
    At what cost? VS Code is a trillion dollar company throwing thousands of man-years at the problem and still running into issues like "we can't make the terminal fast enough because of web tech": https://code.visualstudio.com/blogs/2017/10/03/terminal-renderer https://code.visualstudio.com/blogs/2017/10/03/terminal-rend...
    - orange8 4y ago
      > At what cost? It is free! Free as in free beer. So all those trillions are going to very good use, considering it is the most used editor. And its open source too!! What a web tech success story this one... > and still running into issues like "we can't make the terminal fast enough Imagine that! A cross-platform code editor with its own configurable integrated terminal that hooks into the apps extension system. But someone wrote a blog post in 2017 explaining some performance improvements, so bring out the pitch-forks and burn it all down!
      - illiarian 4y ago
        > It is free! Free as in free beer. You're confusing price and cost of development > so bring out the pitch-forks and burn it all down! That is literally not what I wrote, but at this point it's clear you're not interested in discussion beyond low-level trolling. Adieu
        orange8 4y ago
        > That is literally not what I wrote, Yes. Not all discourse has to be literal. It's called a a metaphor. And your "trillion dollar company throwing thousands of man-years" is called a hyperbole. You are talking about the most successful cross platform code editor of all time, so if you want to be taken seriously, use level-headed arguments rather than emotional exaggerations. > but at this point it's clear you're not interested in discussion beyond low-level trolling. > Adieu I wouldn't consider a discussion where someone cites a 6 year old blog post about performance improvements as proof of "throwing thousands of man years" as a serious, or worthwhile discussion. You can go. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
        wkearney99 4y ago
        And yet he was entirely correct, and you're just coming off as being petulantly pedantic.
  - deminature 4y ago
    VS Code is a great success of Electron-based apps but also has massive memory usage and performance bloat that comes with this style of app, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19144039 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19144039 Sublime Text is implemented natively (C++) and uses a fraction of the resources to accomplish similar functionality. I know we live in a period of plentiful system resources where RAM usage no longer practically matters, but using 1.5GB RAM for a few files open seems insane, even more so that this is now normalized.
    - orange8 4y ago
      > Sublime Text is implemented natively (C++) and uses a fraction of the resources to accomplish similar functionality. If VS Code is slower than sublime with the same level of functionality, why does it currently totally dominate the market? Is it because devs just love Microsoft?
      - deminature 4y ago
        VS Code has a quasi-IDE implemented for a bunch of popular languages including a debugger [1]. Sublime is a straight text editor, with limited debugging capability. Sheer usefulness beats performance, so VS Code won the editor war. [1] https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/editor/debugging https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/editor/debugging
        zuminator 4y ago
        So in other words, not the same level of functionality.
      - nl 4y ago
        Importantly, it isn't slower. It does use a lot more resources, but it turns out that people care a lot less about memory usage than UX speed.
      - danaris 4y ago
        Sublime Text is an independent product from a small developer; VS Code is actively pushed and marketed by Microsoft, one of the biggest, best-known companies in the world. That may or may not be the primary reason for the difference, but I don't think it can be ignored.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    It is also not running on a mobile phone with limited memory, no swap, a small screen and where battery life is at a premium.
- musicale 4y ago
  Jobs' "sweet solution" wasn't completely useless, since mobile Safari did add touch support and some native-like widgets. But it absolutely wasn't the native SDK that developers wanted.
- musicale 4y ago
  VS Code and Discord seem to work OK kind of. Microsoft Teams though...
- wkearney99 4y ago
  Most of what caused those failures was due to incredibly slow networks and limited cpu/ram on the target devices. Now that all those AND the browser engines are better, there's a lot more that can be done, and better too.
- hot_gril 4y ago
  It worked when Discord, Zoom, and a bunch of others tried it. Seemingly most "native" desktop apps are just Electron now.
- thrashh 4y ago
  None of those companies are known for UX. Palm and RIM were so behind in the field to begin with — they needed to catch up before they even thought about reinventing web apps. As another example, if Google were to say tomorrow that they would release a high performance database, I’d believe it. If they were to say they are going to release an original social media platform, I would laugh.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Would you trust your business on a new Google product that may be canceled anytime? Also, are you saying that Microsoft doesn’t know how to make developer tools or support platforms?
illiarian 4y ago
> PWAs could be made to not suck. I've hear that fantasy before > But Apple and Google don’t exactly have a huge incentive to do that. Google is literally the main company behind PWA push. Android doesn't have any of the perceived or real limitations that iOS has. Well, where are these non-sucky PWAs?
- mejutoco 4y ago
  > I've hear that fantasy before Did you hear it from Steve Jobs? https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21/jobs-original-vision-for-the-iphone-no-third-party-native-apps/ https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21/jobs-original-vision-for-the-... Electron apps also had/have a bad reputation and the came vscode.
  - illiarian 4y ago
    I heard it from Jobs. And? On VS Code: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35450206 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35450206
    - mejutoco 4y ago
      I am not the biggest fan of VS Code but it has a lot of fans. That aside, focusing on the main topic, and now I am answering more seriously. You claimed PWA that do not suck are a fantasy. My point is it is not such a crazy thought. It is very possible. Now that Apple wants to appear less monopolistic (probably because of Epic court case) they are finally giving more permissions to PWAs. On top of that the founder of the company expressed this same vision. Both things, together, make me think that it is not such a fantasy.
      - illiarian 4y ago
        > You claimed PWA that do not suck are a fantasy. My point is it is not such a crazy thought. It is very possible. And those are? > Now that Apple wants to appear less monopolistic Android is 70% of world's smartphones with none of the limitations that people accuse Safari of. Where are those amazing PWAs we keep hearing a out?

scarface74 4y ago

“This time we can make an app based on web technologies for real!” - it failed when Palm tried it - it failed when Microsoft tried it - it failed when RIM tried it - the “sweet solution” that Steve Jobs called web apps when the iPhone was introduced was called a “shit sandwich” by potential developers who wanted native apps. On another note, in the history of computing, all cross platform GUI apps have always sucked.

orange8 4y ago
> “This time we can make an app based on web technologies for real!” > - it failed when Microsoft tried it VS Code is one of the most successful open source cross platform GUI apps of all time. Who would have thought that good ol' HTML would finally fulfill the promise of "build once, run everywhere".
- illiarian 4y ago
  At what cost? VS Code is a trillion dollar company throwing thousands of man-years at the problem and still running into issues like "we can't make the terminal fast enough because of web tech": https://code.visualstudio.com/blogs/2017/10/03/terminal-renderer https://code.visualstudio.com/blogs/2017/10/03/terminal-rend...
  - orange8 4y ago
    > At what cost? It is free! Free as in free beer. So all those trillions are going to very good use, considering it is the most used editor. And its open source too!! What a web tech success story this one... > and still running into issues like "we can't make the terminal fast enough Imagine that! A cross-platform code editor with its own configurable integrated terminal that hooks into the apps extension system. But someone wrote a blog post in 2017 explaining some performance improvements, so bring out the pitch-forks and burn it all down!
    - illiarian 4y ago
      > It is free! Free as in free beer. You're confusing price and cost of development > so bring out the pitch-forks and burn it all down! That is literally not what I wrote, but at this point it's clear you're not interested in discussion beyond low-level trolling. Adieu
      - orange8 4y ago
        > That is literally not what I wrote, Yes. Not all discourse has to be literal. It's called a a metaphor. And your "trillion dollar company throwing thousands of man-years" is called a hyperbole. You are talking about the most successful cross platform code editor of all time, so if you want to be taken seriously, use level-headed arguments rather than emotional exaggerations. > but at this point it's clear you're not interested in discussion beyond low-level trolling. > Adieu I wouldn't consider a discussion where someone cites a 6 year old blog post about performance improvements as proof of "throwing thousands of man years" as a serious, or worthwhile discussion. You can go. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
      - wkearney99 4y ago
        And yet he was entirely correct, and you're just coming off as being petulantly pedantic.
- deminature 4y ago
  VS Code is a great success of Electron-based apps but also has massive memory usage and performance bloat that comes with this style of app, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19144039 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19144039 Sublime Text is implemented natively (C++) and uses a fraction of the resources to accomplish similar functionality. I know we live in a period of plentiful system resources where RAM usage no longer practically matters, but using 1.5GB RAM for a few files open seems insane, even more so that this is now normalized.
  - orange8 4y ago
    > Sublime Text is implemented natively (C++) and uses a fraction of the resources to accomplish similar functionality. If VS Code is slower than sublime with the same level of functionality, why does it currently totally dominate the market? Is it because devs just love Microsoft?
    - deminature 4y ago
      VS Code has a quasi-IDE implemented for a bunch of popular languages including a debugger [1]. Sublime is a straight text editor, with limited debugging capability. Sheer usefulness beats performance, so VS Code won the editor war. [1] https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/editor/debugging https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/editor/debugging
      - zuminator 4y ago
        So in other words, not the same level of functionality.
    - nl 4y ago
      Importantly, it isn't slower. It does use a lot more resources, but it turns out that people care a lot less about memory usage than UX speed.
    - danaris 4y ago
      Sublime Text is an independent product from a small developer; VS Code is actively pushed and marketed by Microsoft, one of the biggest, best-known companies in the world. That may or may not be the primary reason for the difference, but I don't think it can be ignored.
- scarface74 4y ago
  It is also not running on a mobile phone with limited memory, no swap, a small screen and where battery life is at a premium.
musicale 4y ago
Jobs' "sweet solution" wasn't completely useless, since mobile Safari did add touch support and some native-like widgets. But it absolutely wasn't the native SDK that developers wanted.
musicale 4y ago
VS Code and Discord seem to work OK kind of. Microsoft Teams though...
wkearney99 4y ago
Most of what caused those failures was due to incredibly slow networks and limited cpu/ram on the target devices. Now that all those AND the browser engines are better, there's a lot more that can be done, and better too.
hot_gril 4y ago
It worked when Discord, Zoom, and a bunch of others tried it. Seemingly most "native" desktop apps are just Electron now.
thrashh 4y ago
None of those companies are known for UX. Palm and RIM were so behind in the field to begin with — they needed to catch up before they even thought about reinventing web apps. As another example, if Google were to say tomorrow that they would release a high performance database, I’d believe it. If they were to say they are going to release an original social media platform, I would laugh.
- scarface74 4y ago
  Would you trust your business on a new Google product that may be canceled anytime? Also, are you saying that Microsoft doesn’t know how to make developer tools or support platforms?

illiarian 4y ago

> PWAs could be made to not suck. I've hear that fantasy before > But Apple and Google don’t exactly have a huge incentive to do that. Google is literally the main company behind PWA push. Android doesn't have any of the perceived or real limitations that iOS has. Well, where are these non-sucky PWAs?

mejutoco 4y ago
> I've hear that fantasy before Did you hear it from Steve Jobs? https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21/jobs-original-vision-for-the-iphone-no-third-party-native-apps/ https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21/jobs-original-vision-for-the-... Electron apps also had/have a bad reputation and the came vscode.
- illiarian 4y ago
  I heard it from Jobs. And? On VS Code: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35450206 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35450206
  - mejutoco 4y ago
    I am not the biggest fan of VS Code but it has a lot of fans. That aside, focusing on the main topic, and now I am answering more seriously. You claimed PWA that do not suck are a fantasy. My point is it is not such a crazy thought. It is very possible. Now that Apple wants to appear less monopolistic (probably because of Epic court case) they are finally giving more permissions to PWAs. On top of that the founder of the company expressed this same vision. Both things, together, make me think that it is not such a fantasy.
    - illiarian 4y ago
      > You claimed PWA that do not suck are a fantasy. My point is it is not such a crazy thought. It is very possible. And those are? > Now that Apple wants to appear less monopolistic Android is 70% of world's smartphones with none of the limitations that people accuse Safari of. Where are those amazing PWAs we keep hearing a out?