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1. They didn't. Because ask three people, and they will give you five answers on what exactly PWA support means (every time it's a different set of random APIs)

1. They didn't. Because ask three people, and they will give you five answers on what exactly PWA support means (every time it's a different set of random APIs) 2. There's Android that holds 70% of world's market share and none of the imagined "killing" that Apple does. Unsurprisingly, there's still not a single mind-bending paradigm-shifting PWA that would show the world just how great PWAs is and just how exactly "Apple is killing PWAs"

deminature 4y ago
Maybe unpopular opinion but PWAs generally just suck compared to their native counterparts. There's always something perceptibly 'wrong' that makes them an inferior user experience, even if only marginally so. I worked on PWAs for a while and users complained endlessly even if they can't articulate exactly why. Technologists are enticed by the cost and development time savings of PWAs over native, but users resent the diminished user experience that almost always comes with it and repay you with poor ratings/reviews.
- thrashh 4y ago
  PWAs could be made to not suck. But Apple and Google don’t exactly have a huge incentive to do that. Plus pushing users through an app store at least enforces a minimum standard of app quality, which as a user, I like.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    “This time we can make an app based on web technologies for real!” - it failed when Palm tried it - it failed when Microsoft tried it - it failed when RIM tried it - the “sweet solution” that Steve Jobs called web apps when the iPhone was introduced was called a “shit sandwich” by potential developers who wanted native apps. On another note, in the history of computing, all cross platform GUI apps have always sucked.
    - orange8 4y ago
      > “This time we can make an app based on web technologies for real!” > - it failed when Microsoft tried it VS Code is one of the most successful open source cross platform GUI apps of all time. Who would have thought that good ol' HTML would finally fulfill the promise of "build once, run everywhere".
      - illiarian 4y ago
        At what cost? VS Code is a trillion dollar company throwing thousands of man-years at the problem and still running into issues like "we can't make the terminal fast enough because of web tech": https://code.visualstudio.com/blogs/2017/10/03/terminal-renderer https://code.visualstudio.com/blogs/2017/10/03/terminal-rend...
        orange8 4y ago
        > At what cost? It is free! Free as in free beer. So all those trillions are going to very good use, considering it is the most used editor. And its open source too!! What a web tech success story this one... > and still running into issues like "we can't make the terminal fast enough Imagine that! A cross-platform code editor with its own configurable integrated terminal that hooks into the apps extension system. But someone wrote a blog post in 2017 explaining some performance improvements, so bring out the pitch-forks and burn it all down!
        illiarian 4y ago
        > It is free! Free as in free beer. You're confusing price and cost of development > so bring out the pitch-forks and burn it all down! That is literally not what I wrote, but at this point it's clear you're not interested in discussion beyond low-level trolling. Adieu
        orange8 4y ago
        > That is literally not what I wrote, Yes. Not all discourse has to be literal. It's called a a metaphor. And your "trillion dollar company throwing thousands of man-years" is called a hyperbole. You are talking about the most successful cross platform code editor of all time, so if you want to be taken seriously, use level-headed arguments rather than emotional exaggerations. > but at this point it's clear you're not interested in discussion beyond low-level trolling. > Adieu I wouldn't consider a discussion where someone cites a 6 year old blog post about performance improvements as proof of "throwing thousands of man years" as a serious, or worthwhile discussion. You can go. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
  - illiarian 4y ago
    > PWAs could be made to not suck. I've hear that fantasy before > But Apple and Google don’t exactly have a huge incentive to do that. Google is literally the main company behind PWA push. Android doesn't have any of the perceived or real limitations that iOS has. Well, where are these non-sucky PWAs?
    - mejutoco 4y ago
      > I've hear that fantasy before Did you hear it from Steve Jobs? https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21/jobs-original-vision-for-the-iphone-no-third-party-native-apps/ https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21/jobs-original-vision-for-the-... Electron apps also had/have a bad reputation and the came vscode.
      - illiarian 4y ago
        I heard it from Jobs. And? On VS Code: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35450206 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35450206
        mejutoco 4y ago
        I am not the biggest fan of VS Code but it has a lot of fans. That aside, focusing on the main topic, and now I am answering more seriously. You claimed PWA that do not suck are a fantasy. My point is it is not such a crazy thought. It is very possible. Now that Apple wants to appear less monopolistic (probably because of Epic court case) they are finally giving more permissions to PWAs. On top of that the founder of the company expressed this same vision. Both things, together, make me think that it is not such a fantasy.
        illiarian 4y ago
        > You claimed PWA that do not suck are a fantasy. My point is it is not such a crazy thought. It is very possible. And those are? > Now that Apple wants to appear less monopolistic Android is 70% of world's smartphones with none of the limitations that people accuse Safari of. Where are those amazing PWAs we keep hearing a out?
- hot_gril 4y ago
  Something perceptibly 'wrong': probably the buttons and stuff being different from the native versions. Users can't tell the difference between a React Native app vs pure native one, though.
Kiro 4y ago
I remember you from the other thread about Safari where you were claiming there are no problems whatsoever, so I'm not surprised you're pushing the same agenda here. Regardless what people reply to that question at least agree that when support is missing Safari will be the common denominator. For me, it's not even about APIs. My game gets like 1 FPS on Safari iOS and I'm not using any non-standard features.
- mhoad 4y ago
  I also recall them showing almost North Korean levels of blind loyalty to Apple that was totally devoid of logic or facts. I don’t know what it is but between Apple, Elon, Web3 and Glen Greenwald they all have some of the absolute strangest super fans I’ve ever seen.
- illiarian 4y ago
  > where you were claiming there are no problems whatsoever Of course I was claiming no such thing > Regardless what people reply to that question at least agree that when support is missing Safari will be the common denominator No, you cannot disregard what people reply. Because the common denominator is just whining as people are complaining about random things. And when Safari adds another random API that random people randomly whine about, they immediately switch to whining about some other random API that apparently PWAs can't live without.
- kaba0 4y ago
  > My game gets like 1 FPS on Safari iOS and I'm not using any non-standard features That seems utterly strange - did you try debugging it?
orange8 4y ago
> ask three people, and they will give you five answers on what exactly PWA support means Or maybe just refer to the definitive docs [1] instead of relying on what 3 random people say? [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Progressive_web_apps/Reference https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Progressive_web...
- illiarian 4y ago
  "That PWAs can use", but it's not a requirement.
  - orange8 4y ago
    So what exactly are you asking for here? A list of PWA api's that must be used all the time in every single PWA app? What's the benefit of that? Which application development API has such an asinine requirement in the first place?
    - illiarian 4y ago
      > So what exactly are you asking for here? I'm not asking. I'm telling, and quite clearly: ask three people, and you will have five answers as to what APIs people think PWAs can't live without. Because of this you will always have people scream "Apple is killing PWAs" because they don't support a yet another random API. And yet, see bullet point two in my original comment.
      - rat9988 4y ago
        You might have five answers, but all of them will agree that ios is lacking important ones.
        illiarian 4y ago
        They won't, of course.
      - orange8 4y ago
hot_gril 4y ago
There's nothing paradigm-shifting about native apps either. Many of them are just wrapped web apps under the hood.

deminature 4y ago

Maybe unpopular opinion but PWAs generally just suck compared to their native counterparts. There's always something perceptibly 'wrong' that makes them an inferior user experience, even if only marginally so. I worked on PWAs for a while and users complained endlessly even if they can't articulate exactly why. Technologists are enticed by the cost and development time savings of PWAs over native, but users resent the diminished user experience that almost always comes with it and repay you with poor ratings/reviews.

thrashh 4y ago
PWAs could be made to not suck. But Apple and Google don’t exactly have a huge incentive to do that. Plus pushing users through an app store at least enforces a minimum standard of app quality, which as a user, I like.
- scarface74 4y ago
  “This time we can make an app based on web technologies for real!” - it failed when Palm tried it - it failed when Microsoft tried it - it failed when RIM tried it - the “sweet solution” that Steve Jobs called web apps when the iPhone was introduced was called a “shit sandwich” by potential developers who wanted native apps. On another note, in the history of computing, all cross platform GUI apps have always sucked.
  - orange8 4y ago
    > “This time we can make an app based on web technologies for real!” > - it failed when Microsoft tried it VS Code is one of the most successful open source cross platform GUI apps of all time. Who would have thought that good ol' HTML would finally fulfill the promise of "build once, run everywhere".
    - illiarian 4y ago
      At what cost? VS Code is a trillion dollar company throwing thousands of man-years at the problem and still running into issues like "we can't make the terminal fast enough because of web tech": https://code.visualstudio.com/blogs/2017/10/03/terminal-renderer https://code.visualstudio.com/blogs/2017/10/03/terminal-rend...
      - orange8 4y ago
        > At what cost? It is free! Free as in free beer. So all those trillions are going to very good use, considering it is the most used editor. And its open source too!! What a web tech success story this one... > and still running into issues like "we can't make the terminal fast enough Imagine that! A cross-platform code editor with its own configurable integrated terminal that hooks into the apps extension system. But someone wrote a blog post in 2017 explaining some performance improvements, so bring out the pitch-forks and burn it all down!
        illiarian 4y ago
        > It is free! Free as in free beer. You're confusing price and cost of development > so bring out the pitch-forks and burn it all down! That is literally not what I wrote, but at this point it's clear you're not interested in discussion beyond low-level trolling. Adieu
        orange8 4y ago
        > That is literally not what I wrote, Yes. Not all discourse has to be literal. It's called a a metaphor. And your "trillion dollar company throwing thousands of man-years" is called a hyperbole. You are talking about the most successful cross platform code editor of all time, so if you want to be taken seriously, use level-headed arguments rather than emotional exaggerations. > but at this point it's clear you're not interested in discussion beyond low-level trolling. > Adieu I wouldn't consider a discussion where someone cites a 6 year old blog post about performance improvements as proof of "throwing thousands of man years" as a serious, or worthwhile discussion. You can go. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
- illiarian 4y ago
  > PWAs could be made to not suck. I've hear that fantasy before > But Apple and Google don’t exactly have a huge incentive to do that. Google is literally the main company behind PWA push. Android doesn't have any of the perceived or real limitations that iOS has. Well, where are these non-sucky PWAs?
  - mejutoco 4y ago
    > I've hear that fantasy before Did you hear it from Steve Jobs? https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21/jobs-original-vision-for-the-iphone-no-third-party-native-apps/ https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21/jobs-original-vision-for-the-... Electron apps also had/have a bad reputation and the came vscode.
    - illiarian 4y ago
      I heard it from Jobs. And? On VS Code: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35450206 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35450206
      - mejutoco 4y ago
        I am not the biggest fan of VS Code but it has a lot of fans. That aside, focusing on the main topic, and now I am answering more seriously. You claimed PWA that do not suck are a fantasy. My point is it is not such a crazy thought. It is very possible. Now that Apple wants to appear less monopolistic (probably because of Epic court case) they are finally giving more permissions to PWAs. On top of that the founder of the company expressed this same vision. Both things, together, make me think that it is not such a fantasy.
        illiarian 4y ago
        > You claimed PWA that do not suck are a fantasy. My point is it is not such a crazy thought. It is very possible. And those are? > Now that Apple wants to appear less monopolistic Android is 70% of world's smartphones with none of the limitations that people accuse Safari of. Where are those amazing PWAs we keep hearing a out?
hot_gril 4y ago
Something perceptibly 'wrong': probably the buttons and stuff being different from the native versions. Users can't tell the difference between a React Native app vs pure native one, though.

Kiro 4y ago

I remember you from the other thread about Safari where you were claiming there are no problems whatsoever, so I'm not surprised you're pushing the same agenda here. Regardless what people reply to that question at least agree that when support is missing Safari will be the common denominator. For me, it's not even about APIs. My game gets like 1 FPS on Safari iOS and I'm not using any non-standard features.

mhoad 4y ago
I also recall them showing almost North Korean levels of blind loyalty to Apple that was totally devoid of logic or facts. I don’t know what it is but between Apple, Elon, Web3 and Glen Greenwald they all have some of the absolute strangest super fans I’ve ever seen.
illiarian 4y ago
> where you were claiming there are no problems whatsoever Of course I was claiming no such thing > Regardless what people reply to that question at least agree that when support is missing Safari will be the common denominator No, you cannot disregard what people reply. Because the common denominator is just whining as people are complaining about random things. And when Safari adds another random API that random people randomly whine about, they immediately switch to whining about some other random API that apparently PWAs can't live without.
kaba0 4y ago
> My game gets like 1 FPS on Safari iOS and I'm not using any non-standard features That seems utterly strange - did you try debugging it?

orange8 4y ago

> ask three people, and they will give you five answers on what exactly PWA support means Or maybe just refer to the definitive docs [1] instead of relying on what 3 random people say? [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Progressive_web_apps/Reference https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Progressive_web...

illiarian 4y ago
"That PWAs can use", but it's not a requirement.
- orange8 4y ago
  So what exactly are you asking for here? A list of PWA api's that must be used all the time in every single PWA app? What's the benefit of that? Which application development API has such an asinine requirement in the first place?
  - illiarian 4y ago
    > So what exactly are you asking for here? I'm not asking. I'm telling, and quite clearly: ask three people, and you will have five answers as to what APIs people think PWAs can't live without. Because of this you will always have people scream "Apple is killing PWAs" because they don't support a yet another random API. And yet, see bullet point two in my original comment.
    - rat9988 4y ago
      You might have five answers, but all of them will agree that ios is lacking important ones.
      - illiarian 4y ago
        They won't, of course.
    - orange8 4y ago

hot_gril 4y ago

There's nothing paradigm-shifting about native apps either. Many of them are just wrapped web apps under the hood.