6 ms·

So Apple doesn’t have a monopoly on “good” trackpads and most things are fixed with software? But hardware is the arguments they make for their Apple purchases!

pseudostem 4y ago
Not exactly, I tried to configure the trackpad open-source (driver?) ages ago. The hardware itself has so many features/switches which are not open and hence not available to the software. The hardware and software go hand in hand IMO. Maybe things have changed now, this was at least 7+ years ago.
Toutouxc 4y ago
As a customer I don’t really care if it’s hardware or software, Apple delivers where others don’t.
- MonaroVXR 4y ago
  Such as? Genuine question.
  - Toutouxc 4y ago
    The trackpad.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    Best speakers in-class, consistently decent keyboard and touchpad (butterfly aside), consistently decent monitor/screen, consistent software design language, "It Just Works(tm)" convenience, social status symbol.
    - toastal 4y ago
      With the speakers, it’s the tuning, not the hardware that is great (though I will agree their tuning is the best). The rest related to hardware, every flagship also does it just as well, but a little different. Software, if you’re comparing to Windows then anything will win, but macOS/iOS is really hostile to users in other ways. Idgaf about “status symbol”.
  - raffraffraff 4y ago
    Trackpad. It's basically the only thing I always notice when using any other brands of laptop. Even the "really good ones" suck by comparison.
  - tannhaeuser 4y ago
    Top menu with reasonable use of available space rather than the half-assed attempt to appeal to a hypothetical normie user on a 2014 tablet/netbook that gnome is doing Touchpad driver that isn't outright physically painful to use Progress in assistive technologies, font rendering, display technology and resolution rather than shipping hardly readable traditional Linux-style dark-blue on black terminal themes on today's dark default themes coupled with a lack of easy configuration Actually working power management, and actual power efficiency resulting in 10h running times (despite overreaching stuff such as systemd, the developer of which has now left for MS to feast on INIs) Focus on end user functionality rather than endless new developer improvements and abstraction frameworks for self-inflicted problems (snap/flatpack/Docker and other meta containers rather than fixing ld.so and glibc or just use static linking) when new apps aren't coming anyways A feeling that the desktop/Finder and UX is evolving and respecting habits rather than being restarted with every release State of the art commercial apps for media production rather than 90s apps struggling for compatibility as devs turn to new playgrounds
    - terhechte 4y ago
      I would add Keybindings that are the same in all apps. Also, Having Command / Super as the keybinding key is awesome because it opens Control for the Readline / Emacs keybindings and doesn't end up in insane shortcut situations like every linux terminal where "copy" suddenly transforms from CTRL+C to CTRL+Shift+C. MacOS has by far the best idea and implementation of how desktop keybindings should work (and no, I love vim but having desktop-wide vim keybindings doesn't make sense because not every input field can easily be modal). I'm constantly surprised why no linux distribution has copied this.
      - krylon 4y ago
        That is the one thing I really miss after going back to Linux. Especially the Emacs-style keybinding in all text input were a delight.
        terhechte 4y ago
        FYI: You can enable them in Gnome with Gnome-Tweaks. Apparently a very recent version of Gnome dropped this functionality for reasons that are beyond my understanding (but that's often the case when I look at the decisions that the Gnome devs make). However, getting the Control -> Command/Super thing to work is much trickier. The best way is to use this: https://github.com/mooz/xkeysnail https://github.com/mooz/xkeysnail However when I tried that, I ran into all kinds of weird behaviours all over the OS. Also, it doesn't work with Wayland.
  - baq 4y ago
    Everything up to macOS itself is top notch. Trackpad, keyboard, display, CPU - all best in class. What isn't best in class is good enough. macOS the desktop part... let's keep it polite and call it a matter of preference (it sucks)
    - theK 4y ago
      Agreed. When I was using Apple laptops as daily drivers I always got the questions why I was replacing the OS with Linux. Fact of the matter was that (at least for me) it was a much stabler environment to work with, less crashing, less unexpected feature failures, etc. Its funny how the reality distortion works for MacOS, people really look very incredulous when you tell them that Linux on Mac works better for you than MacOS on Mac :-)
      - jcz_nz 4y ago
        I’m not sure when your experience dates to, or what kind of dev you were working, but I’ve had the exact opposite: on MacBooks for ~15 years, range of dev (full stack on a few stacks down to large footprint performance critical golang), VM’s etc. In all that time I can count the number of full on crashes (kernel panics) on healthy hardware on one hand. macOS has been supremely stable in my experience.
      - matwood 4y ago
        I always wonder what people are doing where their computer crashes all the time. I've been using Macs since the G4 days and have rarely had any crashes. But, the same is true for Windows for many years when I was a developer for Windows software. Linux is probably where I've had the most crashes b/c it lets you shoot yourself in the foot - which I did many times while learning linux in the 90s-00s.
      - wafer_thin 4y ago
        I run arch linux on my ancient macbook pro 2011. The reason I installed this flavor of linux was to disable a faulty gpu, and the guidance I found was using this distro. This mac has been my all-day-every-day workhorse ever since. And as for linux, with i3 window manager it is fantastic. It runs all the latest things I need for programming and it runs them fast. I almost never boot into mac at all anymore.
- not_enoch_wise 4y ago
  This! Apple delivers the proprietary ports that deprecate all my yucky existing cables, the walled garden that drives up costs and stifles external innovation, the orthodox design choices that refuse to update in the face of UX concerns, and the tv remote controls so divorced from human reality it guarantees I won’t watch too much tv!
eyelidlessness 4y ago
I’ve been using Macs almost exclusively since the 90s, through all of the ISA and OS transitions, and this is literally the first time I’ve ever heard that preference for Mac trackpads might have anything to do with hardware.
- raffraffraff 4y ago
  I've been running Linux exclusively for over a decade on MacBooks and other laptops (flagship models from ASUS, HP, Lenovo) and I can tell you for certain it's the hardware. There may also be differences due to software, but if so, they're things I don't care about. The major thing for me is that I generally can't press to click on the other trackpads without immediately noticing that I have to press noticeably harder in some areas (eg: near the top) to register the click. On the MacBooks, it's absolutely consistent across the entire trackpad. Literally no other manufacturer seems to be able to do this. I hate using touch "tap" because it messes with typing, and no matter how good the software implementation of "disable tap when typing" it sucks. Pressing the trackpad gently and feeling the click, is the only way for me to use a trackpad.
  - kalleboo 4y ago
    In case you're wondering, this is because on the MacBooks it's not physically depressing at all - it's detecting a push and then generating haptic feedback that feels like a click. I wonder why PC manufacturers can't do this - patents?
    - kaba0 4y ago
      Yep patents, but there was some recentish news that another company found another way to imitate those mechanics, so it might just come to other manufacturers as well soon.
      - goosedragons 4y ago
        Steam Deck does it already.
hot_gril 4y ago
Trackpads like many peripherals are a combination of tightly coupled hardware, firmware, and software. If it were a simple issue, you'd think Microsoft and the Linux people would've fixed it by now.
- mbreese 4y ago
  > you'd think Microsoft and the Linux people would've fixed it by now I wonder if Microsoft and Linux developers tend to use a mouse over a trackpad? If they don’t use a trackpad, it isn’t a pain point for them and thus not something that would get prioritized. Apple (on the other hand) has historically had horrible mice (pretty, but poor ergonomics) and solid developer laptops, so trackpads get used more. [1] Regardless of the platform, if a developer feels a pain point, that particular issue will be dealt with sooner. If windows/Linux trackpad usability is “good enough”, it’s not going to be a high priority. [1] source: me. I’ve used many Apple mice and loved the Magic Mouse, even with the strange charging port. That is until I started having carpal tunnel inflammation and switched to a trackpad and finally a more traditional mouse.
  - npteljes 4y ago
    I have always wondered about this. I have never used a Macbook, but I haven't had any issues with the trackpad on Linux either - I flick my finger, point, tap to click, pinch to zoom, double finger to scroll etc. I'm always using laptops a couple generations behind, and it always worked, often out of the box.
  - jon-wood 4y ago
    It may be a bit of a chicken & egg thing. All the people I've seen regularly using Windows laptops carry around a wireless mouse with them that gets used anytime they're using it for an extended period, presumably because the trackpad is so bad. That's going to mean MS' metrics say most people use a mouse, even when a trackpad is available, in which case why bother improving it?
    - yamtaddle 4y ago
pharmakom 4y ago
Maybe the hardware AND the software matter.
kaba0 4y ago
No matter how good a hardware is, it can be made sucky with bad software -- I honestly don't see how you came to the conclusion that it is fixed in software, that's just faulty logic on your side.
rsynnott 4y ago
It's likely a bit of both.
eropple 4y ago
The hardware's part of it. They use a big trackpad and they position it centrally, which a lot of manufacturers don't do. But of course a good bit of it is software, Hackintosh touchpads (when they worked) inherited most then-OS X features. I don't know anyone who ever suggested otherwise.

pseudostem 4y ago

Not exactly, I tried to configure the trackpad open-source (driver?) ages ago. The hardware itself has so many features/switches which are not open and hence not available to the software. The hardware and software go hand in hand IMO. Maybe things have changed now, this was at least 7+ years ago.

Toutouxc 4y ago

As a customer I don’t really care if it’s hardware or software, Apple delivers where others don’t.

MonaroVXR 4y ago
Such as? Genuine question.
- Toutouxc 4y ago
  The trackpad.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  Best speakers in-class, consistently decent keyboard and touchpad (butterfly aside), consistently decent monitor/screen, consistent software design language, "It Just Works(tm)" convenience, social status symbol.
  - toastal 4y ago
    With the speakers, it’s the tuning, not the hardware that is great (though I will agree their tuning is the best). The rest related to hardware, every flagship also does it just as well, but a little different. Software, if you’re comparing to Windows then anything will win, but macOS/iOS is really hostile to users in other ways. Idgaf about “status symbol”.
- raffraffraff 4y ago
  Trackpad. It's basically the only thing I always notice when using any other brands of laptop. Even the "really good ones" suck by comparison.
- tannhaeuser 4y ago
  Top menu with reasonable use of available space rather than the half-assed attempt to appeal to a hypothetical normie user on a 2014 tablet/netbook that gnome is doing Touchpad driver that isn't outright physically painful to use Progress in assistive technologies, font rendering, display technology and resolution rather than shipping hardly readable traditional Linux-style dark-blue on black terminal themes on today's dark default themes coupled with a lack of easy configuration Actually working power management, and actual power efficiency resulting in 10h running times (despite overreaching stuff such as systemd, the developer of which has now left for MS to feast on INIs) Focus on end user functionality rather than endless new developer improvements and abstraction frameworks for self-inflicted problems (snap/flatpack/Docker and other meta containers rather than fixing ld.so and glibc or just use static linking) when new apps aren't coming anyways A feeling that the desktop/Finder and UX is evolving and respecting habits rather than being restarted with every release State of the art commercial apps for media production rather than 90s apps struggling for compatibility as devs turn to new playgrounds
  - terhechte 4y ago
    I would add Keybindings that are the same in all apps. Also, Having Command / Super as the keybinding key is awesome because it opens Control for the Readline / Emacs keybindings and doesn't end up in insane shortcut situations like every linux terminal where "copy" suddenly transforms from CTRL+C to CTRL+Shift+C. MacOS has by far the best idea and implementation of how desktop keybindings should work (and no, I love vim but having desktop-wide vim keybindings doesn't make sense because not every input field can easily be modal). I'm constantly surprised why no linux distribution has copied this.
    - krylon 4y ago
      That is the one thing I really miss after going back to Linux. Especially the Emacs-style keybinding in all text input were a delight.
      - terhechte 4y ago
        FYI: You can enable them in Gnome with Gnome-Tweaks. Apparently a very recent version of Gnome dropped this functionality for reasons that are beyond my understanding (but that's often the case when I look at the decisions that the Gnome devs make). However, getting the Control -> Command/Super thing to work is much trickier. The best way is to use this: https://github.com/mooz/xkeysnail https://github.com/mooz/xkeysnail However when I tried that, I ran into all kinds of weird behaviours all over the OS. Also, it doesn't work with Wayland.
- baq 4y ago
  Everything up to macOS itself is top notch. Trackpad, keyboard, display, CPU - all best in class. What isn't best in class is good enough. macOS the desktop part... let's keep it polite and call it a matter of preference (it sucks)
  - theK 4y ago
    Agreed. When I was using Apple laptops as daily drivers I always got the questions why I was replacing the OS with Linux. Fact of the matter was that (at least for me) it was a much stabler environment to work with, less crashing, less unexpected feature failures, etc. Its funny how the reality distortion works for MacOS, people really look very incredulous when you tell them that Linux on Mac works better for you than MacOS on Mac :-)
    - jcz_nz 4y ago
      I’m not sure when your experience dates to, or what kind of dev you were working, but I’ve had the exact opposite: on MacBooks for ~15 years, range of dev (full stack on a few stacks down to large footprint performance critical golang), VM’s etc. In all that time I can count the number of full on crashes (kernel panics) on healthy hardware on one hand. macOS has been supremely stable in my experience.
    - matwood 4y ago
      I always wonder what people are doing where their computer crashes all the time. I've been using Macs since the G4 days and have rarely had any crashes. But, the same is true for Windows for many years when I was a developer for Windows software. Linux is probably where I've had the most crashes b/c it lets you shoot yourself in the foot - which I did many times while learning linux in the 90s-00s.
    - wafer_thin 4y ago
      I run arch linux on my ancient macbook pro 2011. The reason I installed this flavor of linux was to disable a faulty gpu, and the guidance I found was using this distro. This mac has been my all-day-every-day workhorse ever since. And as for linux, with i3 window manager it is fantastic. It runs all the latest things I need for programming and it runs them fast. I almost never boot into mac at all anymore.
not_enoch_wise 4y ago
This! Apple delivers the proprietary ports that deprecate all my yucky existing cables, the walled garden that drives up costs and stifles external innovation, the orthodox design choices that refuse to update in the face of UX concerns, and the tv remote controls so divorced from human reality it guarantees I won’t watch too much tv!

eyelidlessness 4y ago

I’ve been using Macs almost exclusively since the 90s, through all of the ISA and OS transitions, and this is literally the first time I’ve ever heard that preference for Mac trackpads might have anything to do with hardware.

raffraffraff 4y ago
I've been running Linux exclusively for over a decade on MacBooks and other laptops (flagship models from ASUS, HP, Lenovo) and I can tell you for certain it's the hardware. There may also be differences due to software, but if so, they're things I don't care about. The major thing for me is that I generally can't press to click on the other trackpads without immediately noticing that I have to press noticeably harder in some areas (eg: near the top) to register the click. On the MacBooks, it's absolutely consistent across the entire trackpad. Literally no other manufacturer seems to be able to do this. I hate using touch "tap" because it messes with typing, and no matter how good the software implementation of "disable tap when typing" it sucks. Pressing the trackpad gently and feeling the click, is the only way for me to use a trackpad.
- kalleboo 4y ago
  In case you're wondering, this is because on the MacBooks it's not physically depressing at all - it's detecting a push and then generating haptic feedback that feels like a click. I wonder why PC manufacturers can't do this - patents?
  - kaba0 4y ago
    Yep patents, but there was some recentish news that another company found another way to imitate those mechanics, so it might just come to other manufacturers as well soon.
    - goosedragons 4y ago
      Steam Deck does it already.

hot_gril 4y ago

Trackpads like many peripherals are a combination of tightly coupled hardware, firmware, and software. If it were a simple issue, you'd think Microsoft and the Linux people would've fixed it by now.

mbreese 4y ago
> you'd think Microsoft and the Linux people would've fixed it by now I wonder if Microsoft and Linux developers tend to use a mouse over a trackpad? If they don’t use a trackpad, it isn’t a pain point for them and thus not something that would get prioritized. Apple (on the other hand) has historically had horrible mice (pretty, but poor ergonomics) and solid developer laptops, so trackpads get used more. [1] Regardless of the platform, if a developer feels a pain point, that particular issue will be dealt with sooner. If windows/Linux trackpad usability is “good enough”, it’s not going to be a high priority. [1] source: me. I’ve used many Apple mice and loved the Magic Mouse, even with the strange charging port. That is until I started having carpal tunnel inflammation and switched to a trackpad and finally a more traditional mouse.
- npteljes 4y ago
  I have always wondered about this. I have never used a Macbook, but I haven't had any issues with the trackpad on Linux either - I flick my finger, point, tap to click, pinch to zoom, double finger to scroll etc. I'm always using laptops a couple generations behind, and it always worked, often out of the box.
- jon-wood 4y ago
  It may be a bit of a chicken & egg thing. All the people I've seen regularly using Windows laptops carry around a wireless mouse with them that gets used anytime they're using it for an extended period, presumably because the trackpad is so bad. That's going to mean MS' metrics say most people use a mouse, even when a trackpad is available, in which case why bother improving it?
  - yamtaddle 4y ago

pharmakom 4y ago

Maybe the hardware AND the software matter.

kaba0 4y ago

No matter how good a hardware is, it can be made sucky with bad software -- I honestly don't see how you came to the conclusion that it is fixed in software, that's just faulty logic on your side.

rsynnott 4y ago

It's likely a bit of both.

eropple 4y ago

The hardware's part of it. They use a big trackpad and they position it centrally, which a lot of manufacturers don't do. But of course a good bit of it is software, Hackintosh touchpads (when they worked) inherited most then-OS X features. I don't know anyone who ever suggested otherwise.