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What a pleasant attitude painfully indicative of a certain kind of entrepreneur that can only see green in the world. You see, what you call a "certain type of

by aGHz 15y ago

What a pleasant attitude painfully indicative of a certain kind of entrepreneur that can only see green in the world. You see, what you call a "certain type of nerd" are actually craftsmen who enjoy things done well. You can be all the IKEA you want, and you're surely gonna rack up some interesting profits. But if I'm the kind of furniture maker who enjoys taking 6 months to build the perfect cabinet, you can be sure I'll pay special attention to selecting tools that I love. And none of your monetization arguments are going to count really. So the bottom line is that PHP vs Ruby vs Python etc is a craftsmen's discussion. (If it's a serious discussion at all, that is - comparing it to Lean Startups isn't a serious discussion.) Bringing arguments like yours to such a setting just makes you look silly (especially when you think it's about "extreme optimization", then you just look like you really have no idea what you're talking about).

rickmb 15y ago
It's not a craftsmen's discussion. A craftsman picks the tools they feel the most comfortable with to get the job done. Sure, craftsmen like to discuss their tools, but as an open exchange about their experiences in order to learn from it, or maybe even simply out of professional curiosity. The whole "my stack is better than your stack", and the "PHP sucks" thing that is commonplace on HN, proggit and other forums is not a craftsmen's discussion. It's a juvenile playground pissing contest that has nothing to do with craftsmanship. By the way, anybody who thinks that real crafsmen typically use the "best" tools available has never seen neither an artist nor a plumber at work.
- tluyben2 15y ago
  <blink>By the way, anybody who thinks that real craftsmen typically use the "best" tools available has never seen neither an artist nor a plumber at work.</blink> Should go on top of proggit/hn (yes, including blinking tags :).
- brendoncrawford 15y ago
  By the way, anybody who thinks that real crafsmen typically use the "best" tools available has never seen neither an artist nor a plumber at work. You are correct that they do not pick the "best" tools, but they will deliberately choose the best tools for the job, as opposed to the most convenient tools to aquire and learn.
- aGHz 15y ago
  "It's a juvenile playground pissing contest that has nothing to do with craftsmanship." Sadly, you've got me there. There's rich conversation to be had on the topic though, could we come up with ways to make that surface out of the current swamp of language debates? Although they might not use them, they'll talk endlessly about them. I mention in another comment how I've witnessed very long discussions among my photography and cinema friends about the "nerdy" details of their work. But you're right, there's a lot less emotion than in our community :/
rokhayakebe 15y ago
You can be all the IKEA you want....selecting tools that I love Beautiful analogy, expect that it doesn't work here. You could be a craftsman and build an extremely solid and well designed backend. In the end consumers cannot appreciate your backend. A good example is I have no freaking clue what HN is built on. PHP? LISP? RUBBY?
- dpritchett 15y ago
  HN is built on a handrolled Lisp dialect created on a lark by a millionaire PhD who was looking to test out his own PL design theories.
roel_v 15y ago
LOL. A broke craftsman ain't no craftsman, he's just an unemployed dude posturing as the real deal. I know plenty of real craftsmen, and none of them waste time bickering on the 'right' shape of chisel or optimal mix of cement and sand, they all judge their peers on the results they produce.
- damncabbage 15y ago
  they all judge their peers on the results they produce. There's a little bit of a mismatch here: * Posters above are arguing that the end result that programmers are judged upon is revenue. * You're arguing that the end result that craftsmen are judged upon is quality. If a plumber is doing a terrible job but is doing well business-wise, I'd expect other plumbers to not look upon them so favourably
  - shingen 15y ago
    I really don't think the issue is judging something based on revenue at all. There are numerous ways to measure the success of a product. It depends on what it is meant to accomplish. The real point is: it does not matter what tools you use, so long as you are able to reach success (in any number of ways a person may choose to define it). You can obviously argue about which tools will best get you there, or give you the best chance to succeed. I've seen plenty of entrepreneurs or developers, use a tool 85% good enough, to hit a homerun. It's little different than a good plan executed today being better than a perfect plan tomorrow. I believe there are exceptionally few cases in life or business where the '85% good enough' won't do the job. I've yet to see the 100% perfection set actually exist anyway.
- aGHz 15y ago
  It's true that the ultimate judgement comes on the result, but a lot of the arguments around tools have an element of "this allows you to give better results". I've witnessed very long discussions with my photography and cinema friends about the varieties of cameras and other tools they like to use, so I doubt the validity of your statement. I do have to agree that it sounds a lot more intelligent and a lot less like the language bickering we're seeing. The reason for that brings me back to my original point that there are too many people jumping in the language debates who really have no business being there. It's the equivalent of me trolling my photography friends saying that Sony makes amazing cameras because when I go on vacation I can just whip one out and take a decent shot, whereas the girl who didn't have her 4000$ SLR with her totally missed out on the opportunity. While 100% true, I'm really just derailing their conversation on the relative benefits of their cameras with something completely besides the point.
shingen 15y ago
I didn't say anything about it being bad to enjoy your craft or what tools you use. I've been dirt poor. Painfully, not actually scratching by, live off of ketchup packets poor. Let's talk about only seeing green some time eh. No matter the cost, I've always chose to do what I loved, and I've paid a helluva price for it at times. I've been an entrepreneur since I was 15. I know a thing or two about the extreme ends of both success and failure. What I'm saying is: get the job done, whatever it takes. Use whatever tool will accomplish the job for you personally. Don't waste time turning yourself inside out over pedantic debates over 5% efficiencies, while opportunity escapes out the back door.
- batista 15y ago
  I've been an entrepreneur since I was 15. I wish we could kill the "entrepreneur" meme. What you did since you were 15 was try (unsuccessfully from what I read) to launch some money making scheme or company.
  - shingen 15y ago
    I wish you had any clue what an entrepreneur actually is. A money making scheme? That's laughable. Spoken like someone that is definitely not an entrepreneur and will never be. I've been quite successful, thanks. =) Currently I'm sitting on a seven figure net worth, and I'm in my early 30's. How about you? I've also failed plenty, like anybody that has ever attempted anything difficult. What I've done since I was 15 is build and create web applications that I thought were useful or that I wanted to see exist. Some of them I hoped would become successful businesses, some of them I created for the hell of it. Out of six web businesses I've started, three of those businesses have been successful and both paid for themselves and paid me a healthy income. I built what is, per Quantcast, likely the world's #1200x largest web site, starting from $50 on a terrible virtual server, using nothing but an 8 year computer, notepad, and a 12 year old FTP program, on a very slow Verizon DSL line. Gee, if only I had used the right tools, lol! I just closed an investment round with one of the most successful business people on the planet. Unsuccessful indeed eh. As the agreements I've signed permit it, I'll come back here and update on the progress of my new enterprise. We can compare notes, and see how wildly successful you are too.

by aGHz 15y ago

rickmb 15y ago

It's not a craftsmen's discussion. A craftsman picks the tools they feel the most comfortable with to get the job done. Sure, craftsmen like to discuss their tools, but as an open exchange about their experiences in order to learn from it, or maybe even simply out of professional curiosity. The whole "my stack is better than your stack", and the "PHP sucks" thing that is commonplace on HN, proggit and other forums is not a craftsmen's discussion. It's a juvenile playground pissing contest that has nothing to do with craftsmanship. By the way, anybody who thinks that real crafsmen typically use the "best" tools available has never seen neither an artist nor a plumber at work.

tluyben2 15y ago
<blink>By the way, anybody who thinks that real craftsmen typically use the "best" tools available has never seen neither an artist nor a plumber at work.</blink> Should go on top of proggit/hn (yes, including blinking tags :).
brendoncrawford 15y ago
By the way, anybody who thinks that real crafsmen typically use the "best" tools available has never seen neither an artist nor a plumber at work. You are correct that they do not pick the "best" tools, but they will deliberately choose the best tools for the job, as opposed to the most convenient tools to aquire and learn.
aGHz 15y ago
"It's a juvenile playground pissing contest that has nothing to do with craftsmanship." Sadly, you've got me there. There's rich conversation to be had on the topic though, could we come up with ways to make that surface out of the current swamp of language debates? Although they might not use them, they'll talk endlessly about them. I mention in another comment how I've witnessed very long discussions among my photography and cinema friends about the "nerdy" details of their work. But you're right, there's a lot less emotion than in our community :/

rokhayakebe 15y ago

You can be all the IKEA you want....selecting tools that I love Beautiful analogy, expect that it doesn't work here. You could be a craftsman and build an extremely solid and well designed backend. In the end consumers cannot appreciate your backend. A good example is I have no freaking clue what HN is built on. PHP? LISP? RUBBY?

dpritchett 15y ago
HN is built on a handrolled Lisp dialect created on a lark by a millionaire PhD who was looking to test out his own PL design theories.

roel_v 15y ago

LOL. A broke craftsman ain't no craftsman, he's just an unemployed dude posturing as the real deal. I know plenty of real craftsmen, and none of them waste time bickering on the 'right' shape of chisel or optimal mix of cement and sand, they all judge their peers on the results they produce.

damncabbage 15y ago
they all judge their peers on the results they produce. There's a little bit of a mismatch here: * Posters above are arguing that the end result that programmers are judged upon is revenue. * You're arguing that the end result that craftsmen are judged upon is quality. If a plumber is doing a terrible job but is doing well business-wise, I'd expect other plumbers to not look upon them so favourably
- shingen 15y ago
  I really don't think the issue is judging something based on revenue at all. There are numerous ways to measure the success of a product. It depends on what it is meant to accomplish. The real point is: it does not matter what tools you use, so long as you are able to reach success (in any number of ways a person may choose to define it). You can obviously argue about which tools will best get you there, or give you the best chance to succeed. I've seen plenty of entrepreneurs or developers, use a tool 85% good enough, to hit a homerun. It's little different than a good plan executed today being better than a perfect plan tomorrow. I believe there are exceptionally few cases in life or business where the '85% good enough' won't do the job. I've yet to see the 100% perfection set actually exist anyway.
aGHz 15y ago
It's true that the ultimate judgement comes on the result, but a lot of the arguments around tools have an element of "this allows you to give better results". I've witnessed very long discussions with my photography and cinema friends about the varieties of cameras and other tools they like to use, so I doubt the validity of your statement. I do have to agree that it sounds a lot more intelligent and a lot less like the language bickering we're seeing. The reason for that brings me back to my original point that there are too many people jumping in the language debates who really have no business being there. It's the equivalent of me trolling my photography friends saying that Sony makes amazing cameras because when I go on vacation I can just whip one out and take a decent shot, whereas the girl who didn't have her 4000$ SLR with her totally missed out on the opportunity. While 100% true, I'm really just derailing their conversation on the relative benefits of their cameras with something completely besides the point.

shingen 15y ago

I didn't say anything about it being bad to enjoy your craft or what tools you use. I've been dirt poor. Painfully, not actually scratching by, live off of ketchup packets poor. Let's talk about only seeing green some time eh. No matter the cost, I've always chose to do what I loved, and I've paid a helluva price for it at times. I've been an entrepreneur since I was 15. I know a thing or two about the extreme ends of both success and failure. What I'm saying is: get the job done, whatever it takes. Use whatever tool will accomplish the job for you personally. Don't waste time turning yourself inside out over pedantic debates over 5% efficiencies, while opportunity escapes out the back door.

batista 15y ago
I've been an entrepreneur since I was 15. I wish we could kill the "entrepreneur" meme. What you did since you were 15 was try (unsuccessfully from what I read) to launch some money making scheme or company.
- shingen 15y ago
  I wish you had any clue what an entrepreneur actually is. A money making scheme? That's laughable. Spoken like someone that is definitely not an entrepreneur and will never be. I've been quite successful, thanks. =) Currently I'm sitting on a seven figure net worth, and I'm in my early 30's. How about you? I've also failed plenty, like anybody that has ever attempted anything difficult. What I've done since I was 15 is build and create web applications that I thought were useful or that I wanted to see exist. Some of them I hoped would become successful businesses, some of them I created for the hell of it. Out of six web businesses I've started, three of those businesses have been successful and both paid for themselves and paid me a healthy income. I built what is, per Quantcast, likely the world's #1200x largest web site, starting from $50 on a terrible virtual server, using nothing but an 8 year computer, notepad, and a 12 year old FTP program, on a very slow Verizon DSL line. Gee, if only I had used the right tools, lol! I just closed an investment round with one of the most successful business people on the planet. Unsuccessful indeed eh. As the agreements I've signed permit it, I'll come back here and update on the progress of my new enterprise. We can compare notes, and see how wildly successful you are too.