9 ms·

I think you are mixing two things: dressing "correctly" is a status symbol and always will be even if it tends to be silly (number of pockets for woman, number

I think you are mixing two things: dressing "correctly" is a status symbol and always will be even if it tends to be silly (number of pockets for woman, number of buttons for mens suits). The extreme we should keep fighting is when the norm becomes prohibitive, as in no breast feeding or not being able to ride a bike.

AlecSchueler 4y ago
I'd only suggest speaking to the women in your life about it. Every one I know closely enough expresses that they'd rather have clothes with pockets but there's simply nothing in the shop. They'd happily do without the status that having no pockets apparently gives them.
- bombolo 4y ago
  They could just buy men's clothes?
  - Mezzie 4y ago
    That's practical if you can either tailor or afford to look however you want. I have a decent amount of menswear in my closet but I'm also very curvy so they aren't going to look professional unless I tailor them, so they're at home clothes for now. I did dress in men's clothes back when I was WFH in a camera-off company. I grew up poorish (and therefore can sew) and am good with math so I can tailor my own clothes, but it still takes time and a fair number of women can't sew or mend.
  - AlecSchueler 4y ago
    They can and often do, but there are other issues then such a tailoring and colouring etc., again it's getting back to the social pressure to look a certain feminine way. I'd also add that while workarounds are available these things add up to an increased cognitive load for women doing normal everyday activities such as shopping for shirts.
    - toyg 4y ago
      I honestly think these issues are overblown. The fashion industry is largely led by female input and consuming habits, what it sells is what large majorities of women want. If some elements win over others, it's because the disaffected are a disorganized minority that doesn't necessarily practices what it preaches.
    - bombolo 4y ago
      shirts don't have pockets in any case.
      - falcor84 4y ago
        I'm not following. Shirts can absolutely have pockets, both for men and women.
        bombolo 3y ago
        Fake pockets that aren't really designed to be used, yes.
- hackernewds 4y ago
  It's a free market. Why do clothing companies not produce them then. If there's enough people wanting them, surely a company would manufacture clothes with pockets and grow to be as large as Untuckit
  - AlecSchueler 4y ago
    Yeah, just like how the free market gives me the choice of having a matte screen on my laptop!
    - toyg 4y ago
      Honestly, the fashion industry is nothing like computer manufacturing. Costs are very low and most firms have ways to scattergun all sorts of combinations at various ends of the market. Which is why it's interesting that people complain about "no pockets" - that's because there is nothing of the sorts in the shops they patronize, which is likely a very small section of a huge market, selected according to some (typically class-related) criteria. If they were willing to step outside the boundaries of their self-imposed class-sanctioned bubble, I bet they'd find plenty of pockets. Another point: traditional dressing in many cultures put large pockets on female clothes more than on male ones. The transition to pocket-scarcity on fashion clothes is recent, and probably driven by women rejecting traditional roles. Women voted with their wallets once, they can do it again.
  - PeterisP 4y ago
    Clothing companies do produce them every now and then, but they systematically don't sell well, as similar clothing without proper pockets looks tighter, slimmer, and gets preferred by the majority of shoppers.
    - Mezzie 4y ago
      I would caveat: The majority of shoppers who buy clothing regularly and are into fashion. Which it makes sense for fashion companies to prioritize. Practical women who make pockets a priority also don't replace clothes just because they're out of style, take fewer chances on new things, and buy less.
- bprieto 4y ago
  What they say is one thimg, what they buy is another. If women really wanted clothes with big pockets, women clothes would have big pockets. But big pockets, specially when they have some things in, are not esthetically pleasant, and most women value esthetics more than utility.
  - AlecSchueler 4y ago
    > most women value esthetics more than utility. This is the kind of essentialistic thinking that creates these issues in the first place.
    - bprieto 4y ago
      No, yours is the kind of idealistic thinking that creates all kinds of issues when people don't act like you think they should. I just observe the world, you think the world should bend to fit your ideas.
      - AlecSchueler 4y ago
        You're saying you're totally at ease with how everything in your society operates? And that I'm problematic for wanting things to change that I feel are unjust?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - Reimersholme 4y ago
      [dead]
    - Mezzie 4y ago
      I wouldn't say most women do, but a lot of women do. And, more importantly, those are the women dropping the $$ on clothing and therefore what is catered to. I work in a lingerie/bra boutique at the moment and there are a large amount of women who wear the wrong size bra just because the right size shows that they have back fat. Even when the back fat can't be seen under clothing and the right size is more comfortable. Or who opt for things that are less comfortable/practical solely to fit their conception of themselves. "Oh no, I won't wear this size. I'm not that big/small. It fits well, but I feel so big/small when I look at the tag. I'll just keep wearing my old ones." Those are also the people who spend a ton on things that don't fit them to try to cure the gaping hole inside stemming from their hatred of their own bodies. I've never worked with men in a similar setting (as a class - we have some cross-dressers but if you're a dude who wears women's clothing you're already comfortable breaking the rules) so I can't say if that's solely a woman thing or a general human one.
- somethingreen 4y ago
  There absolutely is a pressure on women to look a certain way, but I don't think number of pockets is in that category. I personally can't think of a single time number of pockets on a woman was addressed critically by either a man or another woman. Unless they were wearing one of those fishing vests, I guess. Men fashion often turns on cargo pants at least - I'm not sure if even that is a major thing for women. Don't you think it's weird that there is a supposedly strictly enforced norm and most of society is largely unaware of its existence?
  - AlecSchueler 4y ago
    If you're asking me then honestly yes I find it very weird that these issues are ignired by men. I get you that you're not hearing this brought up by the women around you but are you giving them the vibes that you'd be receptive to this conversation? You can see it all over this thread, "but there's a free market," "women are just more focused on aesthetics," even angry responses like "how dare you try to change society." It can be extremely tiring to deal with this kind of denial of your lived experience each time you share it.
  - willvarfar 4y ago
    I regularly have to carry things for my wife and daughters because the pockets on regular european women clothes are tiny or even missing completely. It seems to be a fashion thing. Very impractical.
    - jq-r 4y ago
      I find this mildly funny. My wife goes with a purse or that tiny backpack everywhere and sometimes I give her my stuff to carry. Mobile phones are getting too goddamn big.
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  Not the OP, and not sure I should wade into this, but I speak to my wife and sister, not to mention to my best friend, all the time about this. If I push, they'll agree that yeah pockets are nice. But for whatever reason that's beyond my nerdy understanding (and I've been on this for 25 years:), it's just not even remotely a priority. Societal upbringing I'm sure, but whether it's that pockets are not aesthetically pleasing, or they're not feminine, or simply (my assumption) they were brought up without pockets so they don't care about pockets, I don't know. Pockets are available to them. Not in every store, but today, in sufficient number of stores. If it were a concerted preference, a capitalistic market change would be under way. But it's one of those "spoken preference vs acted preference" things. I am tall and slim so already have to shop from the internet to get a fleece that fits, you can bet I'd turn over hell and earth to get me some pockets. This does not appear to be the same level of priority for those people of feminine persuasion in my life. My 100 Croatian Lipa, FWIW, sample size n<50, etc :)

AlecSchueler 4y ago

I'd only suggest speaking to the women in your life about it. Every one I know closely enough expresses that they'd rather have clothes with pockets but there's simply nothing in the shop. They'd happily do without the status that having no pockets apparently gives them.

bombolo 4y ago
They could just buy men's clothes?
- Mezzie 4y ago
  That's practical if you can either tailor or afford to look however you want. I have a decent amount of menswear in my closet but I'm also very curvy so they aren't going to look professional unless I tailor them, so they're at home clothes for now. I did dress in men's clothes back when I was WFH in a camera-off company. I grew up poorish (and therefore can sew) and am good with math so I can tailor my own clothes, but it still takes time and a fair number of women can't sew or mend.
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  They can and often do, but there are other issues then such a tailoring and colouring etc., again it's getting back to the social pressure to look a certain feminine way. I'd also add that while workarounds are available these things add up to an increased cognitive load for women doing normal everyday activities such as shopping for shirts.
  - toyg 4y ago
    I honestly think these issues are overblown. The fashion industry is largely led by female input and consuming habits, what it sells is what large majorities of women want. If some elements win over others, it's because the disaffected are a disorganized minority that doesn't necessarily practices what it preaches.
  - bombolo 4y ago
    shirts don't have pockets in any case.
    - falcor84 4y ago
      I'm not following. Shirts can absolutely have pockets, both for men and women.
      - bombolo 3y ago
        Fake pockets that aren't really designed to be used, yes.
hackernewds 4y ago
It's a free market. Why do clothing companies not produce them then. If there's enough people wanting them, surely a company would manufacture clothes with pockets and grow to be as large as Untuckit
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  Yeah, just like how the free market gives me the choice of having a matte screen on my laptop!
  - toyg 4y ago
    Honestly, the fashion industry is nothing like computer manufacturing. Costs are very low and most firms have ways to scattergun all sorts of combinations at various ends of the market. Which is why it's interesting that people complain about "no pockets" - that's because there is nothing of the sorts in the shops they patronize, which is likely a very small section of a huge market, selected according to some (typically class-related) criteria. If they were willing to step outside the boundaries of their self-imposed class-sanctioned bubble, I bet they'd find plenty of pockets. Another point: traditional dressing in many cultures put large pockets on female clothes more than on male ones. The transition to pocket-scarcity on fashion clothes is recent, and probably driven by women rejecting traditional roles. Women voted with their wallets once, they can do it again.
- PeterisP 4y ago
  Clothing companies do produce them every now and then, but they systematically don't sell well, as similar clothing without proper pockets looks tighter, slimmer, and gets preferred by the majority of shoppers.
  - Mezzie 4y ago
    I would caveat: The majority of shoppers who buy clothing regularly and are into fashion. Which it makes sense for fashion companies to prioritize. Practical women who make pockets a priority also don't replace clothes just because they're out of style, take fewer chances on new things, and buy less.
bprieto 4y ago
What they say is one thimg, what they buy is another. If women really wanted clothes with big pockets, women clothes would have big pockets. But big pockets, specially when they have some things in, are not esthetically pleasant, and most women value esthetics more than utility.
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  > most women value esthetics more than utility. This is the kind of essentialistic thinking that creates these issues in the first place.
  - bprieto 4y ago
    No, yours is the kind of idealistic thinking that creates all kinds of issues when people don't act like you think they should. I just observe the world, you think the world should bend to fit your ideas.
    - AlecSchueler 4y ago
      You're saying you're totally at ease with how everything in your society operates? And that I'm problematic for wanting things to change that I feel are unjust?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - Reimersholme 4y ago
    [dead]
  - Mezzie 4y ago
    I wouldn't say most women do, but a lot of women do. And, more importantly, those are the women dropping the $$ on clothing and therefore what is catered to. I work in a lingerie/bra boutique at the moment and there are a large amount of women who wear the wrong size bra just because the right size shows that they have back fat. Even when the back fat can't be seen under clothing and the right size is more comfortable. Or who opt for things that are less comfortable/practical solely to fit their conception of themselves. "Oh no, I won't wear this size. I'm not that big/small. It fits well, but I feel so big/small when I look at the tag. I'll just keep wearing my old ones." Those are also the people who spend a ton on things that don't fit them to try to cure the gaping hole inside stemming from their hatred of their own bodies. I've never worked with men in a similar setting (as a class - we have some cross-dressers but if you're a dude who wears women's clothing you're already comfortable breaking the rules) so I can't say if that's solely a woman thing or a general human one.
somethingreen 4y ago
There absolutely is a pressure on women to look a certain way, but I don't think number of pockets is in that category. I personally can't think of a single time number of pockets on a woman was addressed critically by either a man or another woman. Unless they were wearing one of those fishing vests, I guess. Men fashion often turns on cargo pants at least - I'm not sure if even that is a major thing for women. Don't you think it's weird that there is a supposedly strictly enforced norm and most of society is largely unaware of its existence?
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  If you're asking me then honestly yes I find it very weird that these issues are ignired by men. I get you that you're not hearing this brought up by the women around you but are you giving them the vibes that you'd be receptive to this conversation? You can see it all over this thread, "but there's a free market," "women are just more focused on aesthetics," even angry responses like "how dare you try to change society." It can be extremely tiring to deal with this kind of denial of your lived experience each time you share it.
- willvarfar 4y ago
  I regularly have to carry things for my wife and daughters because the pockets on regular european women clothes are tiny or even missing completely. It seems to be a fashion thing. Very impractical.
  - jq-r 4y ago
    I find this mildly funny. My wife goes with a purse or that tiny backpack everywhere and sometimes I give her my stuff to carry. Mobile phones are getting too goddamn big.
NikolaNovak 4y ago
Not the OP, and not sure I should wade into this, but I speak to my wife and sister, not to mention to my best friend, all the time about this. If I push, they'll agree that yeah pockets are nice. But for whatever reason that's beyond my nerdy understanding (and I've been on this for 25 years:), it's just not even remotely a priority. Societal upbringing I'm sure, but whether it's that pockets are not aesthetically pleasing, or they're not feminine, or simply (my assumption) they were brought up without pockets so they don't care about pockets, I don't know. Pockets are available to them. Not in every store, but today, in sufficient number of stores. If it were a concerted preference, a capitalistic market change would be under way. But it's one of those "spoken preference vs acted preference" things. I am tall and slim so already have to shop from the internet to get a fleece that fits, you can bet I'd turn over hell and earth to get me some pockets. This does not appear to be the same level of priority for those people of feminine persuasion in my life. My 100 Croatian Lipa, FWIW, sample size n<50, etc :)