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This entire argument is flawed from the premise. You know what else those CEOs didn't do? Graduate college. But that doesn't mean that skipping college is th

This entire argument is flawed from the premise. You know what else those CEOs didn't do? Graduate college. But that doesn't mean that skipping college is the right move. These people are the exception to the rule. Mastermind groups may or may not be good, but arguing that top CEOs don't use them is not a solid argument.

SteveGerencser 4y ago
Agreed. Top CEOs at "top" companies tend to be outliers anyway, so basing how you grow your business on those few unicorns is never a great idea to begin with. A solid mastermind group can to wonders for nearly everyone else. They can take beginning business owners and make them better business owners and offer support for struggling, or even not struggling, business owners. This strikes me as another one of the many, I didn't do this thing so you don't need to do it either articles.
- KyleBerezin 4y ago
  The book "Good to Great" was based on this idea. I understand I am in a minority opinion here, and may be wrong, but a large portion of that book seemed based on that one fallacy.
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  The idea of a community of people facing similar struggles and problems meeting to help each other perform better doesn't seem that outrageous. But paying thousands of dollars to some guru for the privilege does. I think this kind of thing used to happen "organically" on the golf course or at the country club. But at least there you get a round of golf for your money, not just the privilege of being in the same room.
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    Choosing to spend money instead of spending time, when your time is worth a lot of money, is entirely reasonable.
viscanti 4y ago
You'll never be Warren Buffett or Bill Gates if you do X because neither of them did. Which misses the point that it's incredibly unlikely that anyone would ever be as successful as either. Most people probably won't be a Warren Buffett or Bill gates and optimizing for that statistically unlikely outcome could be suboptimal for the vast majority of people. It also makes the mistake of assuming it's an "if and only if" argument. One becomes a Warren Buffett or Bill Gates, if and only if, they don't do X. But there's no proof given for X preventing becoming a Warren Buffett or Bill Gates. The lack of X in some small sample isn't enough to prove this implicit part of their argument. Their argument fails on multiple levels. Maybe Masterminds aren't great for everyone. But that's orthogonal to their argument.
- known 4y ago
  [dead]
btilly 4y ago
No, the argument is not flawed from the start. The burden of evidence is on whomever asserts the positive. There is a dramatic lack of evidence that these mastermind groups lead to success. And therefore we should view with suspicion anyone who says you should pay many thousands of dollars for something with no evidence of effectiveness.
- balls187 4y ago
  First what defines success in your comment? Second, how would you go about measuring success? Since it's hard to measure the efficacy of a mastermind, especially against a nebulous definition of "success", putting on an economist hat, find a near approximation and measure that. Turns out, a mastermind is essentially like a fitness trainer that people hire to lose weight. So does hiring a fitness trainer lead to better weight loss outcomes?
  - btilly 4y ago
    Let me turn the question around. People join mastermind groups because they hope to get specific benefits that the groups advertise that they may give. This is an implicit declaration of success. For which of these forms of success is there evidence that the group works? When you have to pay to be a member (particularly for celebrities like Tony Robbins), is there strong evidence that it is actually worth the money? Note, there are strong psychological biases that makes us tend to justify money we've spent, whether or not it was actually worthwhile. I'm looking for external evidence. There is considerable evidence for benefits for various kinds of mentoring and peer groups. We can see that because people who put their money where their mouths are, like venture capitalists, encourage those behaviors. But I'm not aware of any independent evidence that highly paid "masterminds" are actually worth the money that people pay for them. And, given the burden of proof, it really should be on them to provide that evidence. They don't. Now to fitness trainers. There are lots of kinds of fitness trainers, on lots of kinds of business models. But it isn't hard to find fitness trainers like https://www.homeexercisecoach.com/personal-trainer-guarantee.html https://www.homeexercisecoach.com/personal-trainer-guarantee... who guarantee your results or you get your money back. That's pretty strong evidence that at least some fitness trainers know how to do things that really work. And I'd personally be willing to pay a premium for someone who is willing to provide a guarantee of results over someone who isn't.

SteveGerencser 4y ago

Agreed. Top CEOs at "top" companies tend to be outliers anyway, so basing how you grow your business on those few unicorns is never a great idea to begin with. A solid mastermind group can to wonders for nearly everyone else. They can take beginning business owners and make them better business owners and offer support for struggling, or even not struggling, business owners. This strikes me as another one of the many, I didn't do this thing so you don't need to do it either articles.

KyleBerezin 4y ago
The book "Good to Great" was based on this idea. I understand I am in a minority opinion here, and may be wrong, but a large portion of that book seemed based on that one fallacy.
AlexandrB 4y ago
The idea of a community of people facing similar struggles and problems meeting to help each other perform better doesn't seem that outrageous. But paying thousands of dollars to some guru for the privilege does. I think this kind of thing used to happen "organically" on the golf course or at the country club. But at least there you get a round of golf for your money, not just the privilege of being in the same room.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  Choosing to spend money instead of spending time, when your time is worth a lot of money, is entirely reasonable.

viscanti 4y ago

You'll never be Warren Buffett or Bill Gates if you do X because neither of them did. Which misses the point that it's incredibly unlikely that anyone would ever be as successful as either. Most people probably won't be a Warren Buffett or Bill gates and optimizing for that statistically unlikely outcome could be suboptimal for the vast majority of people. It also makes the mistake of assuming it's an "if and only if" argument. One becomes a Warren Buffett or Bill Gates, if and only if, they don't do X. But there's no proof given for X preventing becoming a Warren Buffett or Bill Gates. The lack of X in some small sample isn't enough to prove this implicit part of their argument. Their argument fails on multiple levels. Maybe Masterminds aren't great for everyone. But that's orthogonal to their argument.

known 4y ago
[dead]

btilly 4y ago

No, the argument is not flawed from the start. The burden of evidence is on whomever asserts the positive. There is a dramatic lack of evidence that these mastermind groups lead to success. And therefore we should view with suspicion anyone who says you should pay many thousands of dollars for something with no evidence of effectiveness.

balls187 4y ago
First what defines success in your comment? Second, how would you go about measuring success? Since it's hard to measure the efficacy of a mastermind, especially against a nebulous definition of "success", putting on an economist hat, find a near approximation and measure that. Turns out, a mastermind is essentially like a fitness trainer that people hire to lose weight. So does hiring a fitness trainer lead to better weight loss outcomes?
- btilly 4y ago
  Let me turn the question around. People join mastermind groups because they hope to get specific benefits that the groups advertise that they may give. This is an implicit declaration of success. For which of these forms of success is there evidence that the group works? When you have to pay to be a member (particularly for celebrities like Tony Robbins), is there strong evidence that it is actually worth the money? Note, there are strong psychological biases that makes us tend to justify money we've spent, whether or not it was actually worthwhile. I'm looking for external evidence. There is considerable evidence for benefits for various kinds of mentoring and peer groups. We can see that because people who put their money where their mouths are, like venture capitalists, encourage those behaviors. But I'm not aware of any independent evidence that highly paid "masterminds" are actually worth the money that people pay for them. And, given the burden of proof, it really should be on them to provide that evidence. They don't. Now to fitness trainers. There are lots of kinds of fitness trainers, on lots of kinds of business models. But it isn't hard to find fitness trainers like https://www.homeexercisecoach.com/personal-trainer-guarantee.html https://www.homeexercisecoach.com/personal-trainer-guarantee... who guarantee your results or you get your money back. That's pretty strong evidence that at least some fitness trainers know how to do things that really work. And I'd personally be willing to pay a premium for someone who is willing to provide a guarantee of results over someone who isn't.