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I came across a comment that resonated with me and seems relevant in this context, so I saved it. It says: "The arc of communism is long and it leans towards o

I came across a comment that resonated with me and seems relevant in this context, so I saved it. It says: "The arc of communism is long and it leans towards oppressing the fuck out of people. It’s a tendency of all governmental systems. Communism rests most of its power in the hands of government without a moneyed elite to oppose them, so it tends to move to authoritarianism faster and with less resistance."

pfisherman 4y ago
Please excuse my naïveté here, but communism is an economic system and not a form of government, no? My understanding is that economics and governance are largely - though not completely - orthogonal.
- fnovd 4y ago
  Marxist theory says that the separation between economic and state power is illusory at best and intentionally deceptive at worst. So a communist isn't going to think it possible to separate economic and state power, whereas that concept of that separation of powers is a foundational component of modern liberalism. It's why the two camps have a such a hard time talking to each other; they really don't see things the same way.
- mongol 4y ago
  I don't see how they can be kept separate. Governance is to a large degree the creation of policies for managing of resources, and managing resources is what economics is about.
- livelielife 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - barrysteve 4y ago
    Communism was a political and economic system. When stalin and hitler dipping their toes in faith/religion/belief it all went wrong and collapsed-in on itself. Ancient Rome had government and politics before religion. The last two thousand years had state religions at some points and the churches have their beliefs on governance, which they do internally and influence the world externally to some degree. They are separate concepts and communism never reached the level of an effective religion. It's not easy to wash away the distinction between concepts.
    - mr_toad 4y ago
      > Ancient Rome had government and politics before religion. Except that they deified many emperors and forced everyone to worship them - which was the main source of conflict with Christians. Communism opposed religion because they were competing theories of inequality.
jihiggins 4y ago
Maybe from the perspective of the moneyed elite, but in what universe is China breaking up a monopoly an indicator of "authoritarianism"
- dmonitor 4y ago
  I’d love to hear Jack Ma’s opinion on it
- thrdbndndn 4y ago
  Because the way it breaks up, it doesn't feel like it is to fight against monopoly, more like the gov not wanting a business empire that becomes too influential. Since it breaks down by divisions, so for example taobao would still be the top e-commerce competitor. Not to mention, despite being huge, I can't say Alibaba has monopoly in any of their services.
- kansface 4y ago
  The US breaks up companies when they abuse their position to unfairly advantage themselves in our market. China just disappeared its most successful businessperson and chopped up his business because he directly criticizing the government.
- refurb 4y ago
  There is no rule of law, that's the indicator of authoritarianism. In the US, if the FTC decides to block your merger or the government wants to split up a company, the company can bring the government to court, on a equal footing and argue it's case. That's not happening in China.
jjoonathan 4y ago
This is the idea of Republicanism: strengthen the nobility to oppose the king. It's not necessarily a bad idea, depending on who is oppressing you more at the moment. However, the nobility is always in love with it for self-serving reasons completely independent of the underlying facts so it's important to develop an independent opinion on the matter that is specific to your situation rather than jumping for every bit of self-serving speculation that (for example) single payer healthcare today will lead to gulags tomorrow, or that allowing companies to dump toxic chemicals or banks to take more risk etc will make you more free. I'm not accusing you of making those silly arguments, but those silly arguments are a frequent end of this line of reasoning, so they are worth watching out for.
fortuna86 4y ago
Another quote: "wealth always consolidates at the top, you can choose private sector or government to do so."
- esafak 4y ago
  Who, Piketty?
sva_ 4y ago
> without a moneyed elite Contrast that with > China’s parliament has about 100 billionaires https://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/02/chinas-parliament-has-about-100-billionaires-according-to-data-from-the-hurun-report.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/02/chinas-parliament-has-about-...
- rs999gti 4y ago
  > China’s parliament has about 100 billionaires Like all communist nations, there is a ruling elite.

pfisherman 4y ago

Please excuse my naïveté here, but communism is an economic system and not a form of government, no? My understanding is that economics and governance are largely - though not completely - orthogonal.

fnovd 4y ago
Marxist theory says that the separation between economic and state power is illusory at best and intentionally deceptive at worst. So a communist isn't going to think it possible to separate economic and state power, whereas that concept of that separation of powers is a foundational component of modern liberalism. It's why the two camps have a such a hard time talking to each other; they really don't see things the same way.
mongol 4y ago
I don't see how they can be kept separate. Governance is to a large degree the creation of policies for managing of resources, and managing resources is what economics is about.
livelielife 4y ago
[flagged]
- barrysteve 4y ago
  Communism was a political and economic system. When stalin and hitler dipping their toes in faith/religion/belief it all went wrong and collapsed-in on itself. Ancient Rome had government and politics before religion. The last two thousand years had state religions at some points and the churches have their beliefs on governance, which they do internally and influence the world externally to some degree. They are separate concepts and communism never reached the level of an effective religion. It's not easy to wash away the distinction between concepts.
  - mr_toad 4y ago
    > Ancient Rome had government and politics before religion. Except that they deified many emperors and forced everyone to worship them - which was the main source of conflict with Christians. Communism opposed religion because they were competing theories of inequality.

jihiggins 4y ago

Maybe from the perspective of the moneyed elite, but in what universe is China breaking up a monopoly an indicator of "authoritarianism"

dmonitor 4y ago
I’d love to hear Jack Ma’s opinion on it
thrdbndndn 4y ago
Because the way it breaks up, it doesn't feel like it is to fight against monopoly, more like the gov not wanting a business empire that becomes too influential. Since it breaks down by divisions, so for example taobao would still be the top e-commerce competitor. Not to mention, despite being huge, I can't say Alibaba has monopoly in any of their services.
kansface 4y ago
The US breaks up companies when they abuse their position to unfairly advantage themselves in our market. China just disappeared its most successful businessperson and chopped up his business because he directly criticizing the government.
refurb 4y ago
There is no rule of law, that's the indicator of authoritarianism. In the US, if the FTC decides to block your merger or the government wants to split up a company, the company can bring the government to court, on a equal footing and argue it's case. That's not happening in China.

jjoonathan 4y ago

This is the idea of Republicanism: strengthen the nobility to oppose the king. It's not necessarily a bad idea, depending on who is oppressing you more at the moment. However, the nobility is always in love with it for self-serving reasons completely independent of the underlying facts so it's important to develop an independent opinion on the matter that is specific to your situation rather than jumping for every bit of self-serving speculation that (for example) single payer healthcare today will lead to gulags tomorrow, or that allowing companies to dump toxic chemicals or banks to take more risk etc will make you more free. I'm not accusing you of making those silly arguments, but those silly arguments are a frequent end of this line of reasoning, so they are worth watching out for.

fortuna86 4y ago

Another quote: "wealth always consolidates at the top, you can choose private sector or government to do so."

esafak 4y ago
Who, Piketty?

sva_ 4y ago

> without a moneyed elite Contrast that with > China’s parliament has about 100 billionaires https://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/02/chinas-parliament-has-about-100-billionaires-according-to-data-from-the-hurun-report.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/02/chinas-parliament-has-about-...

rs999gti 4y ago
> China’s parliament has about 100 billionaires Like all communist nations, there is a ruling elite.