4 ms·

> Malmo, Sweden; where I live, has excellent cycling infrastructure and the scooter "problem" is really miniscule. It could be that what can turn e-scooters fr

by m000 4y ago

> Malmo, Sweden; where I live, has excellent cycling infrastructure and the scooter "problem" is really miniscule. It could be that what can turn e-scooters from an amenity to a menace is tourism. Malmö would hardly be on the map as an international touristic destination. This means that e-scooter users are mostly locals. Which in turns means (a) that e-scooters would typically be a complementary mean of personal mobility, (b) there will be relatively few e-scooters. Paris OTOH, is #1 city tourist destination in the world. It also happens to have a lot of car traffic. This (a) makes moving with an e-scooter convenient, (b) makes deploying a huge number of e-scooters for-rent a very lucrative business, (c) the number of e-scooters is inflated to cater to the tourist clientele. Add to this that many tourists may be unfamiliar with Parisian traffic and norms, and you have a recipe for disaster.

dijit 4y ago
Honestly, I think you make a really good point. The problem though, if taken to extremes would be to ban any form of car-rental (tourists are unfamiliar with the streets) and bike rental for similar reasons. I would add though, that it's possible to gate these things and the scooter companies seem willing to do it; in the US for example I couldn't use an e-scooter because the app wouldn't accept my European driving license. (and you must have a driving license to use them in California)
wcoenen 4y ago
Whenever I visit Paris as a tourist, I have another impression. Each time I stop, as a pedestrian, to wait for a traffic light to turn green, grumbling Parisians walk around me and cross the street with complete disregard for the red light. (I'm not sure I've ever even seen a Parisian pedestrian waiting for a traffic light. They might wait for traffic to clear a bit, but not until there's a green light.) So to me, it looks like the locals have zero respect for traffic rules. Therefore I'm not surprised that new modes of transport come with a lot of problems.
- elric 4y ago
  > So to me, it looks like the locals have zero respect for traffic rules. Therefore I'm not surprised that new modes of transport come with a lot of problems. I imagine they know their city quite well, and suspect many of those traffic lights hinder rather than help pedestrians. Tourists on scooters, on the other hand, don't know the city as well as them, won't know its unwritten rules, and are quite likely to mess up traffic (like you did while waiting for a light to turn green).
- seszett 4y ago
  I'm not sure what this has to do with e-scooters in Paris though. Disregarding red pedestrian traffic lights is the norm in France, they are seen as indicative: green means you can pass regardless of traffic as you have absolute priority, red means you must pay attention to cars but you are still allowed to cross and the law supports that. "Jaywalking" doesn't exist in France and pedestrians can basically cross wherever and whenever they want (it's a bit more complicated than that, but not by much). Cars do have priority when traffic lights are red for pedestrians but they would still be held responsible for any accident. Thus, it seems to me that your impression stems from ignorance of French traffic law and norms, as the parent said. Visiting a foreign country and thinking all rules are the same as they are at home is always a recipe for disappointment. Like, now that I live in Belgium I know that red for cars means that one or two cars will probably still go through the intersection and I shouldn't cross (as a pedestrian or a driver) without paying attention. That's not the case in France and I could think that Belgians (or at least the Flemish, don't know about the rest) "have a total disregard for traffic rules" but that's not true, it's just one difference that you have to be aware of.
  - wcoenen 4y ago
    > pedestrians can basically cross wherever and whenever they want The "code the la route" article R413-38 says otherwise: Lorsque la traversée d'une chaussée est réglée par ces feux, les piétons ne doivent s'engager qu'au feu vert. https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI000006842161/2012-11-11 https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI0000...
    - seszett 4y ago
      The rest of the sentence was "it's a bit more complicated than that, but not by much". The law also says that pedestrians can be fined all of 4 euros for crossing at red and they have no responsibility in the case of an accident, which means in practice there are no consequences for crossing at red. As long as you check that you aren't going to be run over by a car, which people do. They cross at red if there are no cars.
      - 4y ago
- pasc1878 4y ago
  You are American aren't you. This is how normal people use lights in the rest of the world. If it is green walk. If it is red - look around and if it is reasonably safe walk. Jaywalking is not a rule or anything like it. The UK highway Code has recently been changed so that pedestrians have right od way over cars turning into a side street (although not if controlled by traffic lights)
  - wcoenen 4y ago
    > You are American aren't you I am Belgian. In the smaller Belgian cities that I frequent, pedestrians seem to wait for traffic lights. Admittedly that is not the case in Brussels. Maybe it is a big city thing.
  - np- 4y ago
    Not just an American thing, try jaywalking in Germany, they consider it so offensive that even some mothers will shield their children’s eyes to prevent them seeing you do it. You must be British, thinking you speak for the world ;)
    - walthamstow 4y ago
      After just two days in Vienna I changed from my London crossing style to the local style. The social pressure was just too great.
      - KptMarchewa 4y ago
        After week in London I've started to go on red in Warsaw. Life is too short to wait when nobody's driving.
  - ilyt 4y ago
    > This is how normal people use lights in the rest of the world. You're generalizing too much and making exact same mistake you're complaining about. Also jaywalking and going on the red light are not the same. Here in Poland: * you would get a ticket if police sees you crossing a pedestrian crossing on red light * you would also get one if there is pedestrian crossing near you(100m) and you don't use it while crossing * no crossing nearby ? You can pass unless it is something like a highway. You don't get priority in this case.

by m000 4y ago

dijit 4y ago

Honestly, I think you make a really good point. The problem though, if taken to extremes would be to ban any form of car-rental (tourists are unfamiliar with the streets) and bike rental for similar reasons. I would add though, that it's possible to gate these things and the scooter companies seem willing to do it; in the US for example I couldn't use an e-scooter because the app wouldn't accept my European driving license. (and you must have a driving license to use them in California)

wcoenen 4y ago

Whenever I visit Paris as a tourist, I have another impression. Each time I stop, as a pedestrian, to wait for a traffic light to turn green, grumbling Parisians walk around me and cross the street with complete disregard for the red light. (I'm not sure I've ever even seen a Parisian pedestrian waiting for a traffic light. They might wait for traffic to clear a bit, but not until there's a green light.) So to me, it looks like the locals have zero respect for traffic rules. Therefore I'm not surprised that new modes of transport come with a lot of problems.

elric 4y ago
> So to me, it looks like the locals have zero respect for traffic rules. Therefore I'm not surprised that new modes of transport come with a lot of problems. I imagine they know their city quite well, and suspect many of those traffic lights hinder rather than help pedestrians. Tourists on scooters, on the other hand, don't know the city as well as them, won't know its unwritten rules, and are quite likely to mess up traffic (like you did while waiting for a light to turn green).
seszett 4y ago
I'm not sure what this has to do with e-scooters in Paris though. Disregarding red pedestrian traffic lights is the norm in France, they are seen as indicative: green means you can pass regardless of traffic as you have absolute priority, red means you must pay attention to cars but you are still allowed to cross and the law supports that. "Jaywalking" doesn't exist in France and pedestrians can basically cross wherever and whenever they want (it's a bit more complicated than that, but not by much). Cars do have priority when traffic lights are red for pedestrians but they would still be held responsible for any accident. Thus, it seems to me that your impression stems from ignorance of French traffic law and norms, as the parent said. Visiting a foreign country and thinking all rules are the same as they are at home is always a recipe for disappointment. Like, now that I live in Belgium I know that red for cars means that one or two cars will probably still go through the intersection and I shouldn't cross (as a pedestrian or a driver) without paying attention. That's not the case in France and I could think that Belgians (or at least the Flemish, don't know about the rest) "have a total disregard for traffic rules" but that's not true, it's just one difference that you have to be aware of.
- wcoenen 4y ago
  > pedestrians can basically cross wherever and whenever they want The "code the la route" article R413-38 says otherwise: Lorsque la traversée d'une chaussée est réglée par ces feux, les piétons ne doivent s'engager qu'au feu vert. https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI000006842161/2012-11-11 https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI0000...
  - seszett 4y ago
    The rest of the sentence was "it's a bit more complicated than that, but not by much". The law also says that pedestrians can be fined all of 4 euros for crossing at red and they have no responsibility in the case of an accident, which means in practice there are no consequences for crossing at red. As long as you check that you aren't going to be run over by a car, which people do. They cross at red if there are no cars.
    - 4y ago
pasc1878 4y ago
You are American aren't you. This is how normal people use lights in the rest of the world. If it is green walk. If it is red - look around and if it is reasonably safe walk. Jaywalking is not a rule or anything like it. The UK highway Code has recently been changed so that pedestrians have right od way over cars turning into a side street (although not if controlled by traffic lights)
- wcoenen 4y ago
  > You are American aren't you I am Belgian. In the smaller Belgian cities that I frequent, pedestrians seem to wait for traffic lights. Admittedly that is not the case in Brussels. Maybe it is a big city thing.
- np- 4y ago
  Not just an American thing, try jaywalking in Germany, they consider it so offensive that even some mothers will shield their children’s eyes to prevent them seeing you do it. You must be British, thinking you speak for the world ;)
  - walthamstow 4y ago
    After just two days in Vienna I changed from my London crossing style to the local style. The social pressure was just too great.
    - KptMarchewa 4y ago
      After week in London I've started to go on red in Warsaw. Life is too short to wait when nobody's driving.
- ilyt 4y ago
  > This is how normal people use lights in the rest of the world. You're generalizing too much and making exact same mistake you're complaining about. Also jaywalking and going on the red light are not the same. Here in Poland: * you would get a ticket if police sees you crossing a pedestrian crossing on red light * you would also get one if there is pedestrian crossing near you(100m) and you don't use it while crossing * no crossing nearby ? You can pass unless it is something like a highway. You don't get priority in this case.