4 ms·

It's also a problem of shared spaces. Pedestrians and Bikes are a poor mix. Bikes and Cars are a poor mix. but scooters and bikes seem to mix quite well. Ma

by dijit 4y ago

It's also a problem of shared spaces. Pedestrians and Bikes are a poor mix. Bikes and Cars are a poor mix. but scooters and bikes seem to mix quite well. Malmo, Sweden; where I live, has excellent cycling infrastructure and the scooter "problem" is really miniscule. There are still issues, people parking in stupid ways or taking scooters into pedestrian areas, but overall there are significantly more dangerous drivers who hit the accelerator as hard as they can to reach the next red-light so that they can make the most noise possible. I have also noticed that there are a contingent of people who despise anyone having anything nice, and will throw the scooters into the canals, spray their QR codes, intentionally destroy the stands (which means they can't be parked reasonably) and, worse in my opinion, moving the scooters away from where they are safely parked and placing them across the sidewalk, which makes the previous rider look like an arse. The scooter companies try to combat this, but their combating sometimes has the inverse affect[0]. One thing has always been true though: you have to take a photo when you park so that your parking can be validated. [0]: https://blog.dijit.sh/enforcement-can-have-the-inverse-effect https://blog.dijit.sh/enforcement-can-have-the-inverse-effec...

m000 4y ago
> Malmo, Sweden; where I live, has excellent cycling infrastructure and the scooter "problem" is really miniscule. It could be that what can turn e-scooters from an amenity to a menace is tourism. Malmö would hardly be on the map as an international touristic destination. This means that e-scooter users are mostly locals. Which in turns means (a) that e-scooters would typically be a complementary mean of personal mobility, (b) there will be relatively few e-scooters. Paris OTOH, is #1 city tourist destination in the world. It also happens to have a lot of car traffic. This (a) makes moving with an e-scooter convenient, (b) makes deploying a huge number of e-scooters for-rent a very lucrative business, (c) the number of e-scooters is inflated to cater to the tourist clientele. Add to this that many tourists may be unfamiliar with Parisian traffic and norms, and you have a recipe for disaster.
- dijit 4y ago
  Honestly, I think you make a really good point. The problem though, if taken to extremes would be to ban any form of car-rental (tourists are unfamiliar with the streets) and bike rental for similar reasons. I would add though, that it's possible to gate these things and the scooter companies seem willing to do it; in the US for example I couldn't use an e-scooter because the app wouldn't accept my European driving license. (and you must have a driving license to use them in California)
- wcoenen 4y ago
  Whenever I visit Paris as a tourist, I have another impression. Each time I stop, as a pedestrian, to wait for a traffic light to turn green, grumbling Parisians walk around me and cross the street with complete disregard for the red light. (I'm not sure I've ever even seen a Parisian pedestrian waiting for a traffic light. They might wait for traffic to clear a bit, but not until there's a green light.) So to me, it looks like the locals have zero respect for traffic rules. Therefore I'm not surprised that new modes of transport come with a lot of problems.
  - elric 4y ago
    > So to me, it looks like the locals have zero respect for traffic rules. Therefore I'm not surprised that new modes of transport come with a lot of problems. I imagine they know their city quite well, and suspect many of those traffic lights hinder rather than help pedestrians. Tourists on scooters, on the other hand, don't know the city as well as them, won't know its unwritten rules, and are quite likely to mess up traffic (like you did while waiting for a light to turn green).
  - seszett 4y ago
    I'm not sure what this has to do with e-scooters in Paris though. Disregarding red pedestrian traffic lights is the norm in France, they are seen as indicative: green means you can pass regardless of traffic as you have absolute priority, red means you must pay attention to cars but you are still allowed to cross and the law supports that. "Jaywalking" doesn't exist in France and pedestrians can basically cross wherever and whenever they want (it's a bit more complicated than that, but not by much). Cars do have priority when traffic lights are red for pedestrians but they would still be held responsible for any accident. Thus, it seems to me that your impression stems from ignorance of French traffic law and norms, as the parent said. Visiting a foreign country and thinking all rules are the same as they are at home is always a recipe for disappointment. Like, now that I live in Belgium I know that red for cars means that one or two cars will probably still go through the intersection and I shouldn't cross (as a pedestrian or a driver) without paying attention. That's not the case in France and I could think that Belgians (or at least the Flemish, don't know about the rest) "have a total disregard for traffic rules" but that's not true, it's just one difference that you have to be aware of.
zamnos 4y ago
What's interesting about the two photos on your blog is a lack of a lock. The scooters and bicycles where I am (SF) have a lock so they're locked to a bike rack while waiting, which prevents some classes of vandalizing. We had a problem with pedicab drivers dumping the scooters into the bay because of the competition they posed to their business. I think the photo requirement's largely solved the issue, along with the fact that people have adjusted to the change. When the scooters first came on the scene there was a lot of gnashing of teeth, the strangest position were the vandals who would see a well parked scooter, kick it over, causing it to be across the sidewalk, and then go around complaining about the scooters being in the way. Anyway the furor has largely calmed down, who knows what exactly did it, but I suspect a large piece of it is simply people hating change and now they've come to accept it, and even use them sometimes.
- 908B64B197 4y ago
  > We had a problem with pedicab drivers dumping the scooters into the bay because of the competition they posed to their business. > who would see a well parked scooter, kick it over, causing it to be across the sidewalk, and then go around complaining about the scooters being in the way. I wonder why cities prefer to go against the tech companies rather than the criminals vandalizing public property. Anyways here in SF it's unlikely the DA would actually prosecute criminals.
belorn 4y ago
Malmö municipality view the problem of e-scooters that have been dumped in the canal (or in the coast) as a problem that the owner of the e-scooter is responsible for. They do not want to pay for cleanup. The e-scooter companies on the other hand view it as way to expensive if they had to pay for the cleanup, and that they could not operate profitable in malmö if they were forced to pay for it. The end result is that e-scooters are now accumulating in the water with a growing concern among researchers about what will happen once those batteries start to break down.
- dijit 4y ago
  Sure, but I think people throwing loose things into the canal is perhaps unrelated to the points raised in TFA, by the parent or even by me. If you want to talk about this topic in particular: a similar situation happened where people kept throwing outdoor chairs into the canal from Biraria (a restaurant located near the canal in Malmo)[0], the municipality made them pay for it and it sent them out of business (those trawlers are expensive). Tugg, the place that leases the space now; has insurance for this. I don't see these cases as dissimilar. [0]: https://goo.gl/maps/E2XraNA9Yxx9mic7A https://goo.gl/maps/E2XraNA9Yxx9mic7A
  - belorn 4y ago
    Insurance would work if the e-scooter companies paid for it. You can't however use a trawler as that would be counter-productive if the concern is ecological damage, so it would need to be commercial divers which is quite expensive when dealing with low visibility canals. The insurance premium would likely be quite high. The companies can naturally try go after the criminals in order to recover the costs. The two issues are however related. Commercial operations need to pay external costs imposed on the city from commercial activity, be that parking issues or water pollution. If companies refuse to do so it will be up to the citizen to decide if they want those costs be paid through taxes, or issue regulations that may force those companies to go out of business. Either way someone will have to pay for cleanup. Right now no one is doing that in Malmö and other Swedish cities, which is not sustainable.
zoltrix303 4y ago
The problem with Paris really is in the lack of respect for pedestrians space. Motorcycles often park on the sidewalk, and most of the time the side walk has an area monopolized by motorcycle. Since motorcycles have to drive from and to these "parking" spaces, you very often end up with pedestrians and motorcycles inches appart. This simply creates a very blurry line between spared spaces. It's not surprising that e-scooters simply ride on the sidewalk and are a hasard, when the motorcycles themselves also do. The other problem is the streets are old and often have brick sections. ok if you're a car, annoying on a bike, almost unbearable with the small wheels of the scooters. Often they ride on the sidewalk with is a but less bumpy.

by dijit 4y ago

m000 4y ago

> Malmo, Sweden; where I live, has excellent cycling infrastructure and the scooter "problem" is really miniscule. It could be that what can turn e-scooters from an amenity to a menace is tourism. Malmö would hardly be on the map as an international touristic destination. This means that e-scooter users are mostly locals. Which in turns means (a) that e-scooters would typically be a complementary mean of personal mobility, (b) there will be relatively few e-scooters. Paris OTOH, is #1 city tourist destination in the world. It also happens to have a lot of car traffic. This (a) makes moving with an e-scooter convenient, (b) makes deploying a huge number of e-scooters for-rent a very lucrative business, (c) the number of e-scooters is inflated to cater to the tourist clientele. Add to this that many tourists may be unfamiliar with Parisian traffic and norms, and you have a recipe for disaster.

dijit 4y ago
Honestly, I think you make a really good point. The problem though, if taken to extremes would be to ban any form of car-rental (tourists are unfamiliar with the streets) and bike rental for similar reasons. I would add though, that it's possible to gate these things and the scooter companies seem willing to do it; in the US for example I couldn't use an e-scooter because the app wouldn't accept my European driving license. (and you must have a driving license to use them in California)
wcoenen 4y ago
Whenever I visit Paris as a tourist, I have another impression. Each time I stop, as a pedestrian, to wait for a traffic light to turn green, grumbling Parisians walk around me and cross the street with complete disregard for the red light. (I'm not sure I've ever even seen a Parisian pedestrian waiting for a traffic light. They might wait for traffic to clear a bit, but not until there's a green light.) So to me, it looks like the locals have zero respect for traffic rules. Therefore I'm not surprised that new modes of transport come with a lot of problems.
- elric 4y ago
  > So to me, it looks like the locals have zero respect for traffic rules. Therefore I'm not surprised that new modes of transport come with a lot of problems. I imagine they know their city quite well, and suspect many of those traffic lights hinder rather than help pedestrians. Tourists on scooters, on the other hand, don't know the city as well as them, won't know its unwritten rules, and are quite likely to mess up traffic (like you did while waiting for a light to turn green).
- seszett 4y ago
  I'm not sure what this has to do with e-scooters in Paris though. Disregarding red pedestrian traffic lights is the norm in France, they are seen as indicative: green means you can pass regardless of traffic as you have absolute priority, red means you must pay attention to cars but you are still allowed to cross and the law supports that. "Jaywalking" doesn't exist in France and pedestrians can basically cross wherever and whenever they want (it's a bit more complicated than that, but not by much). Cars do have priority when traffic lights are red for pedestrians but they would still be held responsible for any accident. Thus, it seems to me that your impression stems from ignorance of French traffic law and norms, as the parent said. Visiting a foreign country and thinking all rules are the same as they are at home is always a recipe for disappointment. Like, now that I live in Belgium I know that red for cars means that one or two cars will probably still go through the intersection and I shouldn't cross (as a pedestrian or a driver) without paying attention. That's not the case in France and I could think that Belgians (or at least the Flemish, don't know about the rest) "have a total disregard for traffic rules" but that's not true, it's just one difference that you have to be aware of.

zamnos 4y ago

What's interesting about the two photos on your blog is a lack of a lock. The scooters and bicycles where I am (SF) have a lock so they're locked to a bike rack while waiting, which prevents some classes of vandalizing. We had a problem with pedicab drivers dumping the scooters into the bay because of the competition they posed to their business. I think the photo requirement's largely solved the issue, along with the fact that people have adjusted to the change. When the scooters first came on the scene there was a lot of gnashing of teeth, the strangest position were the vandals who would see a well parked scooter, kick it over, causing it to be across the sidewalk, and then go around complaining about the scooters being in the way. Anyway the furor has largely calmed down, who knows what exactly did it, but I suspect a large piece of it is simply people hating change and now they've come to accept it, and even use them sometimes.

908B64B197 4y ago
> We had a problem with pedicab drivers dumping the scooters into the bay because of the competition they posed to their business. > who would see a well parked scooter, kick it over, causing it to be across the sidewalk, and then go around complaining about the scooters being in the way. I wonder why cities prefer to go against the tech companies rather than the criminals vandalizing public property. Anyways here in SF it's unlikely the DA would actually prosecute criminals.

belorn 4y ago

Malmö municipality view the problem of e-scooters that have been dumped in the canal (or in the coast) as a problem that the owner of the e-scooter is responsible for. They do not want to pay for cleanup. The e-scooter companies on the other hand view it as way to expensive if they had to pay for the cleanup, and that they could not operate profitable in malmö if they were forced to pay for it. The end result is that e-scooters are now accumulating in the water with a growing concern among researchers about what will happen once those batteries start to break down.

dijit 4y ago
Sure, but I think people throwing loose things into the canal is perhaps unrelated to the points raised in TFA, by the parent or even by me. If you want to talk about this topic in particular: a similar situation happened where people kept throwing outdoor chairs into the canal from Biraria (a restaurant located near the canal in Malmo)[0], the municipality made them pay for it and it sent them out of business (those trawlers are expensive). Tugg, the place that leases the space now; has insurance for this. I don't see these cases as dissimilar. [0]: https://goo.gl/maps/E2XraNA9Yxx9mic7A https://goo.gl/maps/E2XraNA9Yxx9mic7A
- belorn 4y ago
  Insurance would work if the e-scooter companies paid for it. You can't however use a trawler as that would be counter-productive if the concern is ecological damage, so it would need to be commercial divers which is quite expensive when dealing with low visibility canals. The insurance premium would likely be quite high. The companies can naturally try go after the criminals in order to recover the costs. The two issues are however related. Commercial operations need to pay external costs imposed on the city from commercial activity, be that parking issues or water pollution. If companies refuse to do so it will be up to the citizen to decide if they want those costs be paid through taxes, or issue regulations that may force those companies to go out of business. Either way someone will have to pay for cleanup. Right now no one is doing that in Malmö and other Swedish cities, which is not sustainable.

zoltrix303 4y ago

The problem with Paris really is in the lack of respect for pedestrians space. Motorcycles often park on the sidewalk, and most of the time the side walk has an area monopolized by motorcycle. Since motorcycles have to drive from and to these "parking" spaces, you very often end up with pedestrians and motorcycles inches appart. This simply creates a very blurry line between spared spaces. It's not surprising that e-scooters simply ride on the sidewalk and are a hasard, when the motorcycles themselves also do. The other problem is the streets are old and often have brick sections. ok if you're a car, annoying on a bike, almost unbearable with the small wheels of the scooters. Often they ride on the sidewalk with is a but less bumpy.