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I am sure I will get all kinds of hate for saying this: despite the extra up front cost, apple stuff is a better value. Lets take device lifetime: I have a 201

I am sure I will get all kinds of hate for saying this: despite the extra up front cost, apple stuff is a better value. Lets take device lifetime: I have a 2013 MBP 15 and 2015 MBP 15. I use them for intensive things like music production. Both devices work flawlessly. I also a System 76 Oryx Pro which cost more than any mac I own. The webcam failed 5 months in, several keys don't work anymore, and it gets hotter than the surface of the sun when I ask it to do even moderate workloads. Its also ugly as shit. I don't really use it anymore. There is also resale value: I've been able to get at least a few hundred bucks for pretty much any apple device I've owned when I've sold it. My Oryx? No one wants that thing. Its gonna end up in a landfill at some point. In my experience, you pay more up front but you get more for your money in the long run.

intrasight 4y ago
Perhaps better value hardware-wise - because of resale value. But until Linux is solid, you're still stuck with a lousy OS.
lannisterstark 4y ago
Ever seen a thinkpad?
- localghost3000 4y ago
  Yes. I own two. A t410 and a t450. Definitely more durable but no resale value. I use them for experimental linux installs these days.
  - lannisterstark 4y ago
    I tend not to see thinkpads for resale value, but I think they do fit with the "lasting the test of time" test. The parts are easily available, cheap, and virtually everything is user replaceable. It's great.
    - localghost3000 4y ago
      Yeah they are pretty much the only non apple laptops I'll buy now.
    - FridayoLeary 4y ago
      I had one once. I honestly thought it was awful.I respect that your experiences may have been different but I found it painfully slow and bulky. The detachable battery broke as well and had to be held in place by tape. I opened it once and it looked like a bunch of bits arranged to look like a laptop. Anyone who has seen the elegant neatness of the inside of a Mac will understand what I mean.
      - mhb 4y ago
        The modularity and keyboards of the older Thinkpads (e.g., X220) were worth the extra bulk. But the new laptops sure are pretty, thin and light.
        GolfPopper 4y ago
        Replying on my X220, which is my go-to device for writing, non-graphic intensive gaming, and general web use. It's light enough for my needs, and is built like a tank. Plus, I cannot stand more modern laptop keyboards, and I'm hooked on pointing sticks. I've got my desktop for anything that really needs processing power. I enjoy how my X220 really is a laptop of Theseus; over the years I've replaced everything except the LCD rear cover, bezel, hinges, and base. The biggest problem is getting decent batteries.
        mhb 4y ago
        FWIW, this battery was recommended somewhere. I bought a couple, and they work: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07R7FKDGQ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07R7FKDGQ
      - lannisterstark 4y ago
        >elegant neatness of the inside of a Mac I get your point but this is pretty irrelevant to many people who want the machine to work. Function over form or some such. I'd rather have a durable, repairable machine than a "pretty" machine that allows me virtually 0 upgrades or I have to eat the cost of hundreds of dollars every time I have to send it to Apple care. The thonkpads I have are fairly repairable, durable, and fast. Yes, they're bulky but weight is generally not an issue for me.
  - Seb-C 4y ago
    My high-end thinkpad X1 carbon died after 2 years... Not repairable, and they don't sell any motherboard that could allow me to repair it myself. Also the CPU and RAM were soldered on it, which makes it even less repairable.
    - antod 4y ago
      The X1 is an ultrabook (or at least the continuation of ultrabooks) and not so repairable. The T series though sacrificed a little weight and thickness for more durability, expandability and servicability. The sacrifice was pretty small though - I thought it was worth it when choosing a work T490 over the X1 a few of years ago. The bonus was that for the same budget as standard Macbook Pros at work, I got 32GB RAM and the top i7 plus a thunderbolt dock.
    - lannisterstark 4y ago
      Yeah sadly that's what they've started doing with the X1 Carbon series. But T(xxx) series is still pretty solid. Not to mention older x(xxx) units are still great.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    I use computers until they are ready to go into laptop graveyard, no need for resale value.
goosedragons 4y ago
I had a 2018 MBP that also got as hot of the surface of the sun. Literally SCRIBBLING with the pencil on a blank canvas in Corel Painter for 30 seconds would send the CPU to 90 C. I got lucky with the keyboard on mine but I know quite a few people who weren't or were affected by flexgate. You're right about about resale value. Cult of Apple and all that. I get that looks are subjective but personally I find everything they've made post 2003 to be insanely boring with no real character.
- donatj 4y ago
  I had that laptop. That generation of Macs had thermal issues. Generation before and after are fine. I'm still happily using a 2012 iMac. No thermal issues.
- localghost3000 4y ago
  Yeah there is a big ol asterisk around the 2016-2019(ish) era. I stopped buying apple stuff during that time. Thats why I own the oryx!!
- nuker 4y ago
  > 2018 MBP that also got as hot of the surface of the sun. Mine has dust, Apple store guys cleaned it and issue was gone.
  - goosedragons 4y ago
    I don't think dust buildup was an issue out of the box. It always ran hot.
- herpderperator 4y ago
  Any Intel/AMD mobile processor is going to get hot doing simple things - new or old. It has always been this way. M1/M2 is the way to go if you want cool operation on virtually all workloads.
  - goosedragons 4y ago
    Oh baloney. Doing the same thing on my Ryzen 5650U won't crack 50 C, it regularly idles around 30-40 C whereas the MBP I don't think I ever saw below 45. And my prior Skylake system was way cooler too. Usually was around 70 C gaming. The 2018 15" MBP chassis is particularly terrible for the chips they put in there. The i9 infamously would perform worse than the i7 in benchmarks for long duration tasks.
ab_testing 4y ago
Yeah . If you are comparing Apple to a company that sells less than 10k units a year, then sure Apple would hold better value. I had to look up what is a system 76 oryx.
- localghost3000 4y ago
  I own two thinkpads as well.
- ayewo 4y ago
  Same here, first time I'm hearing of a System 76 Oryx. Link for the lazy: https://system76.com/laptops/oryx https://system76.com/laptops/oryx
nextos 4y ago
We are getting close to the best of both worlds, low-power high-performance Apple ARM laptops plus freedom to run Linux on them, if you want to, with great support.
- oblio 4y ago
  Great support is a stretch. A lot of the Apple ARM hardware is a black box. Plus, good luck if you need to run legacy x86 software, for example games, on the Apple stuff. It's brave new world or nothing, more or less.
ChancyChance 4y ago
I wish more people could have the experience of using Mac and Win11 on a daily basis for real work. I've been developing on Mac/Win11/Linux for 8 years. Win11 vs Mac/Linux is night-vs-day. But you really can't get a sense of how awful windows is without spending serious work time on both Mac & Win. It's not an exaggeration. The simplest things, like remembering settings, switching displays, or setting up hardware, Windows is just garbage. There is such a cumulative cognitive load to using windows vs mac, that it is exhausting. And don't even get me started on developing in windows: the command line always has been and always will be shyte. WSL is a facade. TL;DR: without actually committing to using both OSes for a solid period, I don't think developers have a clue about how bad Windows is compared to MacOS.
- waboremo 4y ago
  There's also a substantial difference in quality when developing between Mac and Linux. Less than Windows, but it's still very noticeable and often most developers make this tradeoff not because of the OS, but what exists outside of that - higher quality hardware, better apple support, more GUI solutions, etc. It's quite unfortunate that I assume many developers within the Windows team can see what needs to be changed, but are given the cold shoulder unless their solution comes bundled with another surface for ads.
  - ChancyChance 4y ago
    I didn't rant further, but Linux really is the best universal dev platform. I mean this in terms of examples, support, and tendency for developers to create tools, toolchains, and ecosystems from the commandline. This is because serious developers need CI/CD flows, and that is something that can only be done efficiently from the commandline, and the Mac POSIX system (with brew and macports) can emulate Linux almost sufficiently as a replacement, but not quite. There's a reason why everything in the backend ultimately lives on a Linux variant. It's just that powerful. Of course, if you're an iOS, Android, or Windows dev exclusively, my words mean nothing. :) There are plenty of CI/CD pipelines for those platforms, but they often tend toward ... Linux-like flows.
deleted 4y ago
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petilon 4y ago
> despite the extra up front cost, apple stuff is a better value What extra up front cost? The Macbook Air costs $799 at BestBuy. Do you mean to say a similar quality Windows machine costs less? Only Samsung makes computers that are comparable to the Macbook. This Samsung [2] arguably has a better screen but costs $1450. (There are cheaper Samsungs but they don't have 200% screen resolution.) [1] https://www.bestbuy.com/site/macbook-air-13-3-laptop-apple-m1-chip-8gb-memory-256gb-ssd-space-gray/5721600.p?skuId=5721600 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/macbook-air-13-3-laptop-apple-m... [2] https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-galaxy-book3-pro-14-3k-amoled-laptop-intel-13th-gen-evo-core-i7-1360p-16gb-memory-512-gb-ssd-graphite/6531065.p?skuId=6531065 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-galaxy-book3-pro-14-3k-...
- danaris 4y ago
  > Do you mean to say a similar quality Windows machine costs less? These days, the extra cost is (mostly) for the quality. (Some of it is also for some of the capabilities, which a given user may not need all of, but the selection is very limited.) So much of the time, when people are comparing a Mac to a PC on price and complaining that the Mac is overpriced, they're comparing it to a PC whose build quality is very obviously inferior. For them, that may not matter, because they're fully price-focused, or because they're only planning on having it for 2-3 years anyway, or because they just don't believe that build quality matters...but it's still a real thing, and it does make a difference for many people.
  - eastbound 4y ago
    The opening test: Open a PC laptop, the keyboard obnoxiously holds on to the screen to about 10cm, at which point your grip fails and it slams against the table. That’s all the treatment it deserves, and the rest of your experience will be similar; It may sound like a joke but there are many situations where this is useful: When you’re on the phone, when you’re in bed, when you’re holding the power adaptor in the other hand, etc.
- AdeptusAquinas 4y ago
  Hmm, I'd say the Surface line are the direct competitors, and have real nice quality. Better keyboards and a nicer screen form factor 3:2. Was quite a fan of the Surface Book 2, and recently picked up a Laptop Go which is great, for less than a Macbook Air.
herpderperator 4y ago
Those old MacBooks can't reliably play 4k and will struggle with 1080p YouTube without running the fan due to software decoding. I think the newer ARM-based Apple products will have much better resale value than the Intel ones. I wouldn't buy an Intel MacBook ever again after having used M1, the difference is night and day. The cheapest M1 MacBook Air with 8GB RAM will do literal laps around any equivalent Intel machine.
acomjean 4y ago
As someone who replaced a 2014 MacBook Pro with a system 76 oryx pro. The oryx does get warmer and has terrible battery life, but mine is currently 4 years and and working fine. It’s significantly faster than the mac (it’s newer) and can play games (it has a fairly decent video card). You can do unreal development on it. A more apt comparison would be that MacBook with a pangolin amd 5600? machine. It’s much better on battery, has the same ports. It’s been my daily driver work machine for almost a year. I’m not going back to Mac or windows if I can help it. The 2015 MacBooks were the greatest apple machines, but I doubt they’ll get any support in a couple years
- localghost3000 4y ago
  > It’s much better on battery This is not my experience. At best I'd get a few hours. If I'm using the GPU? An hour or so.
  - acomjean 4y ago
    The system76 amd computers “pangolin” don’t have a separate gpu. Battery life is good to great, I’ve easily gotten 6 hours. New ones even better.
- KerrAvon 4y ago
  The M1 MacBook Pro is the best Mac made since the turn of the century.
  - VeninVidiaVicii 4y ago
    I switched from Mac to Surface in 2017, and was moderately happy. I bought an M1 air when they came out, it’s essentially a different kind of product. Surface and M1 Macs aren’t even in the same universe of utility.
  - erickhill 4y ago
    Hear hear. I have a Macbook Pro M1 Max. I upgraded from a 2015 MBP, which had previously been one of my all-time favorite Apple laptops (and I've had cough a lot). The MBP M1 Max - to my surprise - destroyed the 2015 on virtually every level. This is my current "from my cold dead hands" machine.
rf15 4y ago
I was born in the late 80s. As I grew up, my parents worked on Windows Machines, and so did the teachers at my school. Macs were just these funny, cute and colorful machines, curiosities more than serious workstations. Even Linux I mostly used to have a system to tinker with. When the first OS X Macbooks and later the iPhone came, I developed the opinion that they're mostly over-expensive status symbols, and I hated Apple for forcing themselves into the education system, especially the arts. I would never stoop so low to support a company with such questionable drive and social impact. This opinion has not necessarily changed as much as Windows has just descended into full blown subscription-trap-ridden spyware with more ads than your average website. My next laptop will probably be a mac, and my desktop workstation will stay on win 10/linux as long as possible, a repeat of the XP era. I'm honestly tired of fighting the OS I want to work on at every step. (and yes that also includes fighting all the little problems you have trying to make linux usable: audio, bluetooth, x/wayland)
Hard_Space 4y ago
Browser support (including Safari support) is the main reason why expensive desktop Macs eventually become paperweights, as has happened to my father in the last year. Safari, Firefox, Chrome, all stuck at ancient and insecure versions, with the web slowly breaking on these older browsers. Despite how glossy and powerful the machine still is, if it doesn't have a working web browser it's only semi-valid. Watched my Dad go through this three times in the last 20 years, and no stranger to it myself. My own current Macbook Air is just a thin client for a Remote Windows instance, but I suppose eventually that the browser interface for that is going to become a problem too, when it 'ages out'.
- newaccount74 4y ago
  Open Core Legacy patcher might help get a few extra years out of your Mac: https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/ https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- mikae1 4y ago
  > Browser support (including Safari support) is the main reason why expensive desktop Macs eventually become paperweights. https://github.com/blueboxd/chromium-legacy https://github.com/blueboxd/chromium-legacy
- elAhmo 4y ago
  How long would you expect a machine can be kept up to date with the latest OS? I have a Mac Mini from 2012 that has the security updates from 2022-05 and Catalina, from 2019, but I have the latest version of Firefox that I use. The machine is perfectly usable and probably performs even better than day one given I put in an SSD in it. I bought it used for less than 300 euros with a wireless keyboard, and given the form factor, ability to use multiple monitors, great integration with my other devices, it wouldn't be fair to complain about a this 11 year old machine that still works as intended.
herbst 4y ago
I've only ever had second hand ThinkPad T series laptops and a brand new 2015 MBP. The MBP had by far the most hardware issues of any devices I ever had (second screen only on power, running hot enough to cook on it, battery life was mediocre from the start, ...). Every single ThinkPad I ever owned is still ready in my drawer. My ~15yo T420 still has like 6 hours battery life and works like a charm The build quality thing is only true if you compare them with cheaper laptops. In the same price class you find more interesting devices IMO
- zargon 4y ago
  True of older ThinkPads but Lenovo seems to have finally broken them. My current T14s Gen 3 AMD has modern standby problems. Fails to resume from sleep about once a week. Trying to get Lenovo to do something about it.
  - leonroy 4y ago
    Is that under Windows or Linux?
    - zargon 4y ago
      Windows. I haven't tried installing Linux yet because I wanted to make sure it works with the factory OS first. Other people have issues with GPU drivers in Linux. There's also the issue of the removal of the S3 sleep option in the uefi.
      - leonroy 4y ago
        Yeah there are at least two known issues with it under Linux: Display flickering if you have the low power LCD: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Fedora/Random-screen-flickering-on-T14s-Gen-3-AMD-in-Fedora-37/m-p/5198472 https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Fedora/Random-screen-flickering... Microphone is very quiet: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Other-Linux-Discussions/T14s-Gen-3-AMD-low-microphone-volume-voice-barely-audible/m-p/5189196 https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Other-Linux-Discussions/T14s-Ge...
  - 4y ago
grumpyprole 4y ago
If you buy a laptop with good Linux support, e.g. a ThinkPad. It should be fine for well over a decade in my experience. That is better value than Apple offer.
- spaceman_2020 4y ago
  Thinkpads are solid devices but they’re really falling behind in screen and trackpads. Most higher end Thinkpad models have 1080p screens with 300-400 nits of brightness at most. The base M2 Macbook Air is 2560x1664 with 500 nits brightness. And it’s cheaper than a Gen2 Thinkpad T14. And of course, all Thinkpads can’t hold a candle to Macbook trackpads
  - wraptile 4y ago
    This has been discussed ad nauseum, trying to find objective truth to subjective device is a bit silly, isn't it? Slightly higher resolution and brightness doesn't matter if you can't see anything because of Macbooks's glary screen. And of course, Macbook's trackpads can't hold a candle to Thinkpad's trackpoint. The only objective truth here is that open software makes devices age better.
  - ulrikrasmussen 4y ago
    If you buy customized from Lenovo instead of a retailer you can almost always choose to upgrade the screen to something like 2560x1660. You have to wait longer for production and delivery though.
  - ThatMedicIsASpy 4y ago
    I don't need 500 nits when instead I can have a non glossy screen
  - diffeomorphism 4y ago
    That is just wrong? Most of them have "3k" or "4k+" displays, aka more than macs. Heck, my 5year old Thinkpad has a 2560x1440 500 nit display. You can get 1080p as an option, but why do you want to? It also has a very nice glass track pad, which as far as hardware is concerned is arguably better than the mac one. The difference is software support, which is better on Mac.
Dwedit 4y ago
Right up until you need to repair anything, and Apple disables sleep mode because it detects a part that wasn't cryptographically mated to the motherboard.
throw_m239339 4y ago
> I am sure I will get all kinds of hate for saying this: despite the extra up front cost, apple stuff is a better value. No it isn't better value, it's expensive for what it is, especially when you can find $200 refurbished Asus Vivobooks out there with a Ryzen 5/7 APU and run linux on them. Apple products are insanely expensive and are often plagued by specific problems due to Apple obsession with (thin) design at the expense of usability.
gigel82 4y ago
I have a 2016 MBP 15 that is struggling with anything other than browsing. It cost $2800 new (luckily bought by my employer). I also bought an Asus ultrabook in the same year (2016) for under $700 for my wife and it's still going strong (neither it nor the mac's batteries last as much as they used to, but otherwise no issues). In my experience, I pay less upfront for a Windows machine and get to enjoy it just as much (if not longer).
- windowsrookie 4y ago
  Unfortunately 2016 was the worst year to buy a MacBook Pro in the last 10 years. 2016 models still only had a 4-core CPU and DDR3 RAM. 2018 models saw a big improvement in performance (6 cores, DDR4), 2019 models fixed the keyboard, and then 2021 the M1 chips arrived.
Thorentis 4y ago
Also still have a 2015 MBP that is going strong. Never changed the battery, but I probably should (though I usually use it on charge anyway). Best laptop I've ever bought.

intrasight 4y ago

Perhaps better value hardware-wise - because of resale value. But until Linux is solid, you're still stuck with a lousy OS.

lannisterstark 4y ago

Ever seen a thinkpad?

localghost3000 4y ago
Yes. I own two. A t410 and a t450. Definitely more durable but no resale value. I use them for experimental linux installs these days.
- lannisterstark 4y ago
  I tend not to see thinkpads for resale value, but I think they do fit with the "lasting the test of time" test. The parts are easily available, cheap, and virtually everything is user replaceable. It's great.
  - localghost3000 4y ago
    Yeah they are pretty much the only non apple laptops I'll buy now.
  - FridayoLeary 4y ago
    I had one once. I honestly thought it was awful.I respect that your experiences may have been different but I found it painfully slow and bulky. The detachable battery broke as well and had to be held in place by tape. I opened it once and it looked like a bunch of bits arranged to look like a laptop. Anyone who has seen the elegant neatness of the inside of a Mac will understand what I mean.
    - mhb 4y ago
      The modularity and keyboards of the older Thinkpads (e.g., X220) were worth the extra bulk. But the new laptops sure are pretty, thin and light.
      - GolfPopper 4y ago
        Replying on my X220, which is my go-to device for writing, non-graphic intensive gaming, and general web use. It's light enough for my needs, and is built like a tank. Plus, I cannot stand more modern laptop keyboards, and I'm hooked on pointing sticks. I've got my desktop for anything that really needs processing power. I enjoy how my X220 really is a laptop of Theseus; over the years I've replaced everything except the LCD rear cover, bezel, hinges, and base. The biggest problem is getting decent batteries.
        mhb 4y ago
        FWIW, this battery was recommended somewhere. I bought a couple, and they work: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07R7FKDGQ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07R7FKDGQ
    - lannisterstark 4y ago
      >elegant neatness of the inside of a Mac I get your point but this is pretty irrelevant to many people who want the machine to work. Function over form or some such. I'd rather have a durable, repairable machine than a "pretty" machine that allows me virtually 0 upgrades or I have to eat the cost of hundreds of dollars every time I have to send it to Apple care. The thonkpads I have are fairly repairable, durable, and fast. Yes, they're bulky but weight is generally not an issue for me.
- Seb-C 4y ago
  My high-end thinkpad X1 carbon died after 2 years... Not repairable, and they don't sell any motherboard that could allow me to repair it myself. Also the CPU and RAM were soldered on it, which makes it even less repairable.
  - antod 4y ago
    The X1 is an ultrabook (or at least the continuation of ultrabooks) and not so repairable. The T series though sacrificed a little weight and thickness for more durability, expandability and servicability. The sacrifice was pretty small though - I thought it was worth it when choosing a work T490 over the X1 a few of years ago. The bonus was that for the same budget as standard Macbook Pros at work, I got 32GB RAM and the top i7 plus a thunderbolt dock.
  - lannisterstark 4y ago
    Yeah sadly that's what they've started doing with the X1 Carbon series. But T(xxx) series is still pretty solid. Not to mention older x(xxx) units are still great.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  I use computers until they are ready to go into laptop graveyard, no need for resale value.

goosedragons 4y ago

I had a 2018 MBP that also got as hot of the surface of the sun. Literally SCRIBBLING with the pencil on a blank canvas in Corel Painter for 30 seconds would send the CPU to 90 C. I got lucky with the keyboard on mine but I know quite a few people who weren't or were affected by flexgate. You're right about about resale value. Cult of Apple and all that. I get that looks are subjective but personally I find everything they've made post 2003 to be insanely boring with no real character.

donatj 4y ago
I had that laptop. That generation of Macs had thermal issues. Generation before and after are fine. I'm still happily using a 2012 iMac. No thermal issues.
localghost3000 4y ago
Yeah there is a big ol asterisk around the 2016-2019(ish) era. I stopped buying apple stuff during that time. Thats why I own the oryx!!
nuker 4y ago
> 2018 MBP that also got as hot of the surface of the sun. Mine has dust, Apple store guys cleaned it and issue was gone.
- goosedragons 4y ago
  I don't think dust buildup was an issue out of the box. It always ran hot.
herpderperator 4y ago
Any Intel/AMD mobile processor is going to get hot doing simple things - new or old. It has always been this way. M1/M2 is the way to go if you want cool operation on virtually all workloads.
- goosedragons 4y ago
  Oh baloney. Doing the same thing on my Ryzen 5650U won't crack 50 C, it regularly idles around 30-40 C whereas the MBP I don't think I ever saw below 45. And my prior Skylake system was way cooler too. Usually was around 70 C gaming. The 2018 15" MBP chassis is particularly terrible for the chips they put in there. The i9 infamously would perform worse than the i7 in benchmarks for long duration tasks.

ab_testing 4y ago

Yeah . If you are comparing Apple to a company that sells less than 10k units a year, then sure Apple would hold better value. I had to look up what is a system 76 oryx.

localghost3000 4y ago
I own two thinkpads as well.
ayewo 4y ago
Same here, first time I'm hearing of a System 76 Oryx. Link for the lazy: https://system76.com/laptops/oryx https://system76.com/laptops/oryx

nextos 4y ago

We are getting close to the best of both worlds, low-power high-performance Apple ARM laptops plus freedom to run Linux on them, if you want to, with great support.

oblio 4y ago
Great support is a stretch. A lot of the Apple ARM hardware is a black box. Plus, good luck if you need to run legacy x86 software, for example games, on the Apple stuff. It's brave new world or nothing, more or less.

ChancyChance 4y ago

I wish more people could have the experience of using Mac and Win11 on a daily basis for real work. I've been developing on Mac/Win11/Linux for 8 years. Win11 vs Mac/Linux is night-vs-day. But you really can't get a sense of how awful windows is without spending serious work time on both Mac & Win. It's not an exaggeration. The simplest things, like remembering settings, switching displays, or setting up hardware, Windows is just garbage. There is such a cumulative cognitive load to using windows vs mac, that it is exhausting. And don't even get me started on developing in windows: the command line always has been and always will be shyte. WSL is a facade. TL;DR: without actually committing to using both OSes for a solid period, I don't think developers have a clue about how bad Windows is compared to MacOS.

waboremo 4y ago
There's also a substantial difference in quality when developing between Mac and Linux. Less than Windows, but it's still very noticeable and often most developers make this tradeoff not because of the OS, but what exists outside of that - higher quality hardware, better apple support, more GUI solutions, etc. It's quite unfortunate that I assume many developers within the Windows team can see what needs to be changed, but are given the cold shoulder unless their solution comes bundled with another surface for ads.
- ChancyChance 4y ago
  I didn't rant further, but Linux really is the best universal dev platform. I mean this in terms of examples, support, and tendency for developers to create tools, toolchains, and ecosystems from the commandline. This is because serious developers need CI/CD flows, and that is something that can only be done efficiently from the commandline, and the Mac POSIX system (with brew and macports) can emulate Linux almost sufficiently as a replacement, but not quite. There's a reason why everything in the backend ultimately lives on a Linux variant. It's just that powerful. Of course, if you're an iOS, Android, or Windows dev exclusively, my words mean nothing. :) There are plenty of CI/CD pipelines for those platforms, but they often tend toward ... Linux-like flows.

deleted 4y ago

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petilon 4y ago

> despite the extra up front cost, apple stuff is a better value What extra up front cost? The Macbook Air costs $799 at BestBuy. Do you mean to say a similar quality Windows machine costs less? Only Samsung makes computers that are comparable to the Macbook. This Samsung [2] arguably has a better screen but costs $1450. (There are cheaper Samsungs but they don't have 200% screen resolution.) [1] https://www.bestbuy.com/site/macbook-air-13-3-laptop-apple-m1-chip-8gb-memory-256gb-ssd-space-gray/5721600.p?skuId=5721600 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/macbook-air-13-3-laptop-apple-m... [2] https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-galaxy-book3-pro-14-3k-amoled-laptop-intel-13th-gen-evo-core-i7-1360p-16gb-memory-512-gb-ssd-graphite/6531065.p?skuId=6531065 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-galaxy-book3-pro-14-3k-...

danaris 4y ago
> Do you mean to say a similar quality Windows machine costs less? These days, the extra cost is (mostly) for the quality. (Some of it is also for some of the capabilities, which a given user may not need all of, but the selection is very limited.) So much of the time, when people are comparing a Mac to a PC on price and complaining that the Mac is overpriced, they're comparing it to a PC whose build quality is very obviously inferior. For them, that may not matter, because they're fully price-focused, or because they're only planning on having it for 2-3 years anyway, or because they just don't believe that build quality matters...but it's still a real thing, and it does make a difference for many people.
- eastbound 4y ago
  The opening test: Open a PC laptop, the keyboard obnoxiously holds on to the screen to about 10cm, at which point your grip fails and it slams against the table. That’s all the treatment it deserves, and the rest of your experience will be similar; It may sound like a joke but there are many situations where this is useful: When you’re on the phone, when you’re in bed, when you’re holding the power adaptor in the other hand, etc.
AdeptusAquinas 4y ago
Hmm, I'd say the Surface line are the direct competitors, and have real nice quality. Better keyboards and a nicer screen form factor 3:2. Was quite a fan of the Surface Book 2, and recently picked up a Laptop Go which is great, for less than a Macbook Air.

herpderperator 4y ago

Those old MacBooks can't reliably play 4k and will struggle with 1080p YouTube without running the fan due to software decoding. I think the newer ARM-based Apple products will have much better resale value than the Intel ones. I wouldn't buy an Intel MacBook ever again after having used M1, the difference is night and day. The cheapest M1 MacBook Air with 8GB RAM will do literal laps around any equivalent Intel machine.

acomjean 4y ago

As someone who replaced a 2014 MacBook Pro with a system 76 oryx pro. The oryx does get warmer and has terrible battery life, but mine is currently 4 years and and working fine. It’s significantly faster than the mac (it’s newer) and can play games (it has a fairly decent video card). You can do unreal development on it. A more apt comparison would be that MacBook with a pangolin amd 5600? machine. It’s much better on battery, has the same ports. It’s been my daily driver work machine for almost a year. I’m not going back to Mac or windows if I can help it. The 2015 MacBooks were the greatest apple machines, but I doubt they’ll get any support in a couple years

localghost3000 4y ago
> It’s much better on battery This is not my experience. At best I'd get a few hours. If I'm using the GPU? An hour or so.
- acomjean 4y ago
  The system76 amd computers “pangolin” don’t have a separate gpu. Battery life is good to great, I’ve easily gotten 6 hours. New ones even better.
KerrAvon 4y ago
The M1 MacBook Pro is the best Mac made since the turn of the century.
- VeninVidiaVicii 4y ago
  I switched from Mac to Surface in 2017, and was moderately happy. I bought an M1 air when they came out, it’s essentially a different kind of product. Surface and M1 Macs aren’t even in the same universe of utility.
- erickhill 4y ago
  Hear hear. I have a Macbook Pro M1 Max. I upgraded from a 2015 MBP, which had previously been one of my all-time favorite Apple laptops (and I've had cough a lot). The MBP M1 Max - to my surprise - destroyed the 2015 on virtually every level. This is my current "from my cold dead hands" machine.

rf15 4y ago

I was born in the late 80s. As I grew up, my parents worked on Windows Machines, and so did the teachers at my school. Macs were just these funny, cute and colorful machines, curiosities more than serious workstations. Even Linux I mostly used to have a system to tinker with. When the first OS X Macbooks and later the iPhone came, I developed the opinion that they're mostly over-expensive status symbols, and I hated Apple for forcing themselves into the education system, especially the arts. I would never stoop so low to support a company with such questionable drive and social impact. This opinion has not necessarily changed as much as Windows has just descended into full blown subscription-trap-ridden spyware with more ads than your average website. My next laptop will probably be a mac, and my desktop workstation will stay on win 10/linux as long as possible, a repeat of the XP era. I'm honestly tired of fighting the OS I want to work on at every step. (and yes that also includes fighting all the little problems you have trying to make linux usable: audio, bluetooth, x/wayland)

Hard_Space 4y ago

Browser support (including Safari support) is the main reason why expensive desktop Macs eventually become paperweights, as has happened to my father in the last year. Safari, Firefox, Chrome, all stuck at ancient and insecure versions, with the web slowly breaking on these older browsers. Despite how glossy and powerful the machine still is, if it doesn't have a working web browser it's only semi-valid. Watched my Dad go through this three times in the last 20 years, and no stranger to it myself. My own current Macbook Air is just a thin client for a Remote Windows instance, but I suppose eventually that the browser interface for that is going to become a problem too, when it 'ages out'.

newaccount74 4y ago
Open Core Legacy patcher might help get a few extra years out of your Mac: https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/ https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
mikae1 4y ago
> Browser support (including Safari support) is the main reason why expensive desktop Macs eventually become paperweights. https://github.com/blueboxd/chromium-legacy https://github.com/blueboxd/chromium-legacy
elAhmo 4y ago
How long would you expect a machine can be kept up to date with the latest OS? I have a Mac Mini from 2012 that has the security updates from 2022-05 and Catalina, from 2019, but I have the latest version of Firefox that I use. The machine is perfectly usable and probably performs even better than day one given I put in an SSD in it. I bought it used for less than 300 euros with a wireless keyboard, and given the form factor, ability to use multiple monitors, great integration with my other devices, it wouldn't be fair to complain about a this 11 year old machine that still works as intended.

herbst 4y ago

I've only ever had second hand ThinkPad T series laptops and a brand new 2015 MBP. The MBP had by far the most hardware issues of any devices I ever had (second screen only on power, running hot enough to cook on it, battery life was mediocre from the start, ...). Every single ThinkPad I ever owned is still ready in my drawer. My ~15yo T420 still has like 6 hours battery life and works like a charm The build quality thing is only true if you compare them with cheaper laptops. In the same price class you find more interesting devices IMO

zargon 4y ago
True of older ThinkPads but Lenovo seems to have finally broken them. My current T14s Gen 3 AMD has modern standby problems. Fails to resume from sleep about once a week. Trying to get Lenovo to do something about it.
- leonroy 4y ago
  Is that under Windows or Linux?
  - zargon 4y ago
    Windows. I haven't tried installing Linux yet because I wanted to make sure it works with the factory OS first. Other people have issues with GPU drivers in Linux. There's also the issue of the removal of the S3 sleep option in the uefi.
    - leonroy 4y ago
      Yeah there are at least two known issues with it under Linux: Display flickering if you have the low power LCD: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Fedora/Random-screen-flickering-on-T14s-Gen-3-AMD-in-Fedora-37/m-p/5198472 https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Fedora/Random-screen-flickering... Microphone is very quiet: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Other-Linux-Discussions/T14s-Gen-3-AMD-low-microphone-volume-voice-barely-audible/m-p/5189196 https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Other-Linux-Discussions/T14s-Ge...
- 4y ago

grumpyprole 4y ago

If you buy a laptop with good Linux support, e.g. a ThinkPad. It should be fine for well over a decade in my experience. That is better value than Apple offer.

spaceman_2020 4y ago
Thinkpads are solid devices but they’re really falling behind in screen and trackpads. Most higher end Thinkpad models have 1080p screens with 300-400 nits of brightness at most. The base M2 Macbook Air is 2560x1664 with 500 nits brightness. And it’s cheaper than a Gen2 Thinkpad T14. And of course, all Thinkpads can’t hold a candle to Macbook trackpads
- wraptile 4y ago
  This has been discussed ad nauseum, trying to find objective truth to subjective device is a bit silly, isn't it? Slightly higher resolution and brightness doesn't matter if you can't see anything because of Macbooks's glary screen. And of course, Macbook's trackpads can't hold a candle to Thinkpad's trackpoint. The only objective truth here is that open software makes devices age better.
- ulrikrasmussen 4y ago
  If you buy customized from Lenovo instead of a retailer you can almost always choose to upgrade the screen to something like 2560x1660. You have to wait longer for production and delivery though.
- ThatMedicIsASpy 4y ago
  I don't need 500 nits when instead I can have a non glossy screen
- diffeomorphism 4y ago
  That is just wrong? Most of them have "3k" or "4k+" displays, aka more than macs. Heck, my 5year old Thinkpad has a 2560x1440 500 nit display. You can get 1080p as an option, but why do you want to? It also has a very nice glass track pad, which as far as hardware is concerned is arguably better than the mac one. The difference is software support, which is better on Mac.

Dwedit 4y ago

Right up until you need to repair anything, and Apple disables sleep mode because it detects a part that wasn't cryptographically mated to the motherboard.

throw_m239339 4y ago

> I am sure I will get all kinds of hate for saying this: despite the extra up front cost, apple stuff is a better value. No it isn't better value, it's expensive for what it is, especially when you can find $200 refurbished Asus Vivobooks out there with a Ryzen 5/7 APU and run linux on them. Apple products are insanely expensive and are often plagued by specific problems due to Apple obsession with (thin) design at the expense of usability.

gigel82 4y ago

I have a 2016 MBP 15 that is struggling with anything other than browsing. It cost $2800 new (luckily bought by my employer). I also bought an Asus ultrabook in the same year (2016) for under $700 for my wife and it's still going strong (neither it nor the mac's batteries last as much as they used to, but otherwise no issues). In my experience, I pay less upfront for a Windows machine and get to enjoy it just as much (if not longer).

windowsrookie 4y ago
Unfortunately 2016 was the worst year to buy a MacBook Pro in the last 10 years. 2016 models still only had a 4-core CPU and DDR3 RAM. 2018 models saw a big improvement in performance (6 cores, DDR4), 2019 models fixed the keyboard, and then 2021 the M1 chips arrived.

Thorentis 4y ago

Also still have a 2015 MBP that is going strong. Never changed the battery, but I probably should (though I usually use it on charge anyway). Best laptop I've ever bought.