5 ms·

I dunno, have you been to any of the major western European cities in the last 15 years? They're pretty brown now. At least these cities seem to greatly favor i

by beaned 4y ago

I dunno, have you been to any of the major western European cities in the last 15 years? They're pretty brown now. At least these cities seem to greatly favor immigration.

Aeolun 4y ago
I wouldn’t say they favor immigration, but they’re dealing with it as gracefully as possible, under the circumstances.
- schnitzelstoat 4y ago
  But they voted for the politicians that adopted those immigration policies - it doesn't happen by itself.
  - revelio 4y ago
    Those policies aren't actually popular though. They were were forced by the EU, other pan-European NGOs and a political class that has things nicely sewn up (i.e. if the major parties agree then you have nobody to vote for). Europe has a democratic deficit that gets airbrushed out a lot of the time. The UK had to leave the entire thing to try and get immigration under control and have still totally failed - they can't even deport illegal immigrants because the EU Court of Human Rights decided that deportation is against human rights. So now maybe the UK has to leave that too except, ah ha, supporters of that system wrote membership into various other agreements and so on. Same way it's always done in Europe. Everything is made to depend on everything else as a way to disempower the electorate.
    - b3orn 4y ago
      The EU doesn't have a Court of Human Rights, that's an institution of the Council of Europe, which is unrelated to the EU.
      - revelio 4y ago
        You're right, I should have written the "European Court of Human Rights".
        jamespo 4y ago
        Assigning them to the EU is a common trope of the UK right wing
        revelio 4y ago
        It's a common problem amongst anyone who isn't an EU superfan because these organizations all have confusingly similar names. Council of Europe being different to the European Council is a popular source of thinkos, and none of it is helped by the way the EU routinely uses "Europe" to mean the EU institutions, not the continent.
        jamespo 4y ago
        Not common at all, apart from with the right wing attempting some conflation and thinking they’re clever.
    - pas 4y ago
      no one is forced by the EU. look at Hungary as an example of how far you can go before the EU does anything. (and the worst is that they don't send you money. and since rich countries pay more toward than they receive from the EU budget they cannot really be forced.) Brexit is the headliner of populism fest, of course the whole thing is sponsored by Dunning-Kruger. everyone with more than a fistful of minimally calibrated brain cells have saw through the "wages are bad because immigrants, EU bad, must leave EU" > Everything is made to depend on everything else as a way to disempower the electorate. Yes, the electorate. The famously well represented electorate. In the so well empowered UK elections. Please. There are plenty of completely valid and important problems of integration of various migrant groups, similarly there is a literal endless list of problems with the EU, as it's big complex and there's always going to be problems. And it's true of borders, inequality, elections and so on. By gesturing at the problems and then loudly proclaiming the UK has to leave the ECHR, and that it can't really, and that everything is forced on the poor powerless groups "same way it's always done in Europe" is silly and just muddies the waters. The UK and any other groups can as sovereign states can exit those agreements. Maybe other states will be disappointed, as no one welcomes complexity and paperwork, but those exact states are the ones that are going to respect the sovereignty that makes this possible. And just as a small datapoint for anyone else reading. The EU typically goes very great lengths to make sure all members are represented, their needs heard, and as possible taken care of. Usually it's a shitshow, because how do you make a fair judgement between two members? Usually you don't, but make sure the weaker, smaller ones are not trampled by the bigger ones, and hope for the best. But then look at the border issue between Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. The EU put its foot down because it's the whole point that there cannot be a border between its members. So the UK wanted out, they had to give. It's the same thing with those pesky agreements and courts and rights.

by beaned 4y ago

I dunno, have you been to any of the major western European cities in the last 15 years? They're pretty brown now. At least these cities seem to greatly favor immigration.

Aeolun 4y ago

I wouldn’t say they favor immigration, but they’re dealing with it as gracefully as possible, under the circumstances.

schnitzelstoat 4y ago
But they voted for the politicians that adopted those immigration policies - it doesn't happen by itself.
- revelio 4y ago
  Those policies aren't actually popular though. They were were forced by the EU, other pan-European NGOs and a political class that has things nicely sewn up (i.e. if the major parties agree then you have nobody to vote for). Europe has a democratic deficit that gets airbrushed out a lot of the time. The UK had to leave the entire thing to try and get immigration under control and have still totally failed - they can't even deport illegal immigrants because the EU Court of Human Rights decided that deportation is against human rights. So now maybe the UK has to leave that too except, ah ha, supporters of that system wrote membership into various other agreements and so on. Same way it's always done in Europe. Everything is made to depend on everything else as a way to disempower the electorate.
  - b3orn 4y ago
    The EU doesn't have a Court of Human Rights, that's an institution of the Council of Europe, which is unrelated to the EU.
    - revelio 4y ago
      You're right, I should have written the "European Court of Human Rights".
      - jamespo 4y ago
        Assigning them to the EU is a common trope of the UK right wing
        revelio 4y ago
        It's a common problem amongst anyone who isn't an EU superfan because these organizations all have confusingly similar names. Council of Europe being different to the European Council is a popular source of thinkos, and none of it is helped by the way the EU routinely uses "Europe" to mean the EU institutions, not the continent.
        jamespo 4y ago
        Not common at all, apart from with the right wing attempting some conflation and thinking they’re clever.
  - pas 4y ago
    no one is forced by the EU. look at Hungary as an example of how far you can go before the EU does anything. (and the worst is that they don't send you money. and since rich countries pay more toward than they receive from the EU budget they cannot really be forced.) Brexit is the headliner of populism fest, of course the whole thing is sponsored by Dunning-Kruger. everyone with more than a fistful of minimally calibrated brain cells have saw through the "wages are bad because immigrants, EU bad, must leave EU" > Everything is made to depend on everything else as a way to disempower the electorate. Yes, the electorate. The famously well represented electorate. In the so well empowered UK elections. Please. There are plenty of completely valid and important problems of integration of various migrant groups, similarly there is a literal endless list of problems with the EU, as it's big complex and there's always going to be problems. And it's true of borders, inequality, elections and so on. By gesturing at the problems and then loudly proclaiming the UK has to leave the ECHR, and that it can't really, and that everything is forced on the poor powerless groups "same way it's always done in Europe" is silly and just muddies the waters. The UK and any other groups can as sovereign states can exit those agreements. Maybe other states will be disappointed, as no one welcomes complexity and paperwork, but those exact states are the ones that are going to respect the sovereignty that makes this possible. And just as a small datapoint for anyone else reading. The EU typically goes very great lengths to make sure all members are represented, their needs heard, and as possible taken care of. Usually it's a shitshow, because how do you make a fair judgement between two members? Usually you don't, but make sure the weaker, smaller ones are not trampled by the bigger ones, and hope for the best. But then look at the border issue between Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. The EU put its foot down because it's the whole point that there cannot be a border between its members. So the UK wanted out, they had to give. It's the same thing with those pesky agreements and courts and rights.