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What we describe colloquially as burnout has a lot of parallels to mild to moderate clinical depression. So much so that they both respond similarly to the most

What we describe colloquially as burnout has a lot of parallels to mild to moderate clinical depression. So much so that they both respond similarly to the most effective treatments. There is no singular cure, but a consistent regimen of exercise, bright light exposure, and social activity can produce incremental improvements over time. What definitely does not help is using stimulants to try to push through. I feel like I’m seeing more and more social media posts from people who deepen their burnout by trying to use excessive caffeine intake (or stronger prescription stimulants) to try to ignore the warning signs and push on.

arnejenssen 4y ago
Coffee and "energy drinks" like Red Bull does not give you energy. They borrow energy from you. It is like overclocking your brain. Sometimes it is what you want, but it comes at a cost.
- danenania 4y ago
  Caffeine easily creates a negative feedback loop where you consume it, then get less and lower quality sleep, and therefore need more caffeine to function at the same level, so you sleep even worse, and so on. The main fixes I’ve found for myself are: - Get a lot of exercise and sunlight (if possible) to counteract the caffeine’s effect on sleep. - Resist the urge to have more caffeine than usual when tired. It works well as an enhancer to a well-rested brain, but when used to compensate for sleep deprivation, it’s counter-productive.
  - hesdeadjim 4y ago
    Second point is a great call out. I used to keep shoveling caffeine when I was younger and ended up having huge sleep problems (surprise) and a 26+ circadian rhythm. I’d quit for a month, then be back on it. Eventually I figured out that a solid blast of cold brew in the morning and none the rest of the day worked better —- almost like medicine. Like you say, if I feel I need more then it’s a lifestyle problem.
    - inconceivable 4y ago
      i sometimes drink a single cup of tea in the morning now, but back when i was pushing hard, i would just buy cold brew concentrate and drink an espresso-sized amount in the morning. it was very effective at jump-starting the day and was strong enough that i didn't ever feel the need to keep consuming. it wore off by noon and that's when i would break fast and get some lunch. then i'd do non-demanding tasks in the afternoon. i think a lot of people drink cups and cups of coffee because the first one just isn't strong enough. get a strong buzz first, get your shit done, and then let it coast down. probably why many europeans start with a strong espresso and asians drink less-caffeinated tea throughout the day. drinking coffee all day long seems like a solution in search of a problem.
  - icpmacdo 4y ago
    Only having 1-2 cups of coffee between 10am and noon have been a very helpful personal rule
  - ropable 4y ago
    I love coffee, but I've determined that consuming caffeine negatively affects my sleep even 6-8 hours later. I agree with your fixes, though my own rule is simply to not consume anything caffeinated after 15:00.
carterschonwald 4y ago
Strong agreement. Thermonuclear burnout is a medium weight depression Episode
mewpmewp2 4y ago
How do you determine whether you have been burnt out? Because for me stimulants have helped against the symptoms that are described for burn out. By that I mean things like lack of motivation, helplessness, frustration, anxiety, incapability to feel pleasure, cynicism, sense of failure, self-doubt, etc. While stimulants have a withdrawal period, I prefer to have an option to be productive and motivated for a certain amount of time and then when I don't have to do anything, it's fine to comedown as opposed to being constantly in that depressive state of mind. Because stimulants remind me that it's possible to feel motivated, essentially. Otherwise I would never feel motivated. It would be a constant grayness. And I can learn from the mindset I was able to have while being under the effect. I also do few weeks of breaks to reduce tolerance and dependency when times are easier.
- sandermvanvliet 4y ago
  For me it was serious black-outs and lots of migraines. The ones where you start seeing scintillating scotoma [0]. On top of that both anger and anxiety attacks, you know all the fun stuff. Of course this is different for almost anyone but I’ve spoken with some folks who’ve had similar-ish symptoms. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scintillating_scotoma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scintillating_scotoma
- quags 4y ago
  Not everyone is equal. For what you say , talking everything at face value , you may have something that stimulates treat such as add/adhd and that may also mean more prone to depression or it’s slower burn dysthymia.
  - TeMPOraL 4y ago
    There are many confounders. To the extent the problem is caused by depression, the negative feedback loop of stimulants leading to poor sleep can actually have net positive effect (possibly only short to mid term, IANADoctor, this is not medical advice), because sleep deprivation seems to (in my experience, anecdotally confirmed from various sources) shut off depression symptoms faster than it shuts down your cognitive power. Related: see also Ballmer Peak[0], which is particularly funny because the effect is, to a degree, real. -- [0] - https://xkcd.com/323/ https://xkcd.com/323/
RobRivera 4y ago
I can vouch for the sunlight, exercise, and social interacfion. a week on a cruise in the carribean and I was BRIMMING with energy.
- TeMPOraL 4y ago
  Counterpoint: honeymoon in Turkey and while I was brimming with energy on my way back, the moment I sat down to work again, I crashed to even lower level than I was before leaving for the vacation.

arnejenssen 4y ago

Coffee and "energy drinks" like Red Bull does not give you energy. They borrow energy from you. It is like overclocking your brain. Sometimes it is what you want, but it comes at a cost.

danenania 4y ago
Caffeine easily creates a negative feedback loop where you consume it, then get less and lower quality sleep, and therefore need more caffeine to function at the same level, so you sleep even worse, and so on. The main fixes I’ve found for myself are: - Get a lot of exercise and sunlight (if possible) to counteract the caffeine’s effect on sleep. - Resist the urge to have more caffeine than usual when tired. It works well as an enhancer to a well-rested brain, but when used to compensate for sleep deprivation, it’s counter-productive.
- hesdeadjim 4y ago
  Second point is a great call out. I used to keep shoveling caffeine when I was younger and ended up having huge sleep problems (surprise) and a 26+ circadian rhythm. I’d quit for a month, then be back on it. Eventually I figured out that a solid blast of cold brew in the morning and none the rest of the day worked better —- almost like medicine. Like you say, if I feel I need more then it’s a lifestyle problem.
  - inconceivable 4y ago
    i sometimes drink a single cup of tea in the morning now, but back when i was pushing hard, i would just buy cold brew concentrate and drink an espresso-sized amount in the morning. it was very effective at jump-starting the day and was strong enough that i didn't ever feel the need to keep consuming. it wore off by noon and that's when i would break fast and get some lunch. then i'd do non-demanding tasks in the afternoon. i think a lot of people drink cups and cups of coffee because the first one just isn't strong enough. get a strong buzz first, get your shit done, and then let it coast down. probably why many europeans start with a strong espresso and asians drink less-caffeinated tea throughout the day. drinking coffee all day long seems like a solution in search of a problem.
- icpmacdo 4y ago
  Only having 1-2 cups of coffee between 10am and noon have been a very helpful personal rule
- ropable 4y ago
  I love coffee, but I've determined that consuming caffeine negatively affects my sleep even 6-8 hours later. I agree with your fixes, though my own rule is simply to not consume anything caffeinated after 15:00.

carterschonwald 4y ago

Strong agreement. Thermonuclear burnout is a medium weight depression Episode

mewpmewp2 4y ago

How do you determine whether you have been burnt out? Because for me stimulants have helped against the symptoms that are described for burn out. By that I mean things like lack of motivation, helplessness, frustration, anxiety, incapability to feel pleasure, cynicism, sense of failure, self-doubt, etc. While stimulants have a withdrawal period, I prefer to have an option to be productive and motivated for a certain amount of time and then when I don't have to do anything, it's fine to comedown as opposed to being constantly in that depressive state of mind. Because stimulants remind me that it's possible to feel motivated, essentially. Otherwise I would never feel motivated. It would be a constant grayness. And I can learn from the mindset I was able to have while being under the effect. I also do few weeks of breaks to reduce tolerance and dependency when times are easier.

sandermvanvliet 4y ago
For me it was serious black-outs and lots of migraines. The ones where you start seeing scintillating scotoma [0]. On top of that both anger and anxiety attacks, you know all the fun stuff. Of course this is different for almost anyone but I’ve spoken with some folks who’ve had similar-ish symptoms. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scintillating_scotoma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scintillating_scotoma
quags 4y ago
Not everyone is equal. For what you say , talking everything at face value , you may have something that stimulates treat such as add/adhd and that may also mean more prone to depression or it’s slower burn dysthymia.
- TeMPOraL 4y ago
  There are many confounders. To the extent the problem is caused by depression, the negative feedback loop of stimulants leading to poor sleep can actually have net positive effect (possibly only short to mid term, IANADoctor, this is not medical advice), because sleep deprivation seems to (in my experience, anecdotally confirmed from various sources) shut off depression symptoms faster than it shuts down your cognitive power. Related: see also Ballmer Peak[0], which is particularly funny because the effect is, to a degree, real. -- [0] - https://xkcd.com/323/ https://xkcd.com/323/

RobRivera 4y ago

I can vouch for the sunlight, exercise, and social interacfion. a week on a cruise in the carribean and I was BRIMMING with energy.

TeMPOraL 4y ago
Counterpoint: honeymoon in Turkey and while I was brimming with energy on my way back, the moment I sat down to work again, I crashed to even lower level than I was before leaving for the vacation.