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In 2019, the 4B movement claimed to have 4,000 members! This is 0.016% of the women in South Korea! I'm going to assume (because I think it's very likely) that

by 55555 4y ago

In 2019, the 4B movement claimed to have 4,000 members! This is 0.016% of the women in South Korea! I'm going to assume (because I think it's very likely) that a large number of these were already not having much sex ("incels") nor planning on getting married. I'm also going to assume that many of these women who now claim they are remaining celibate are actually having sex anyway, as abstaining from sex is difficult to do (unless it comes naturally to you, in which case it's having sex that seems impossible!) In other words, this is a human interest story about basically nothing, that tries to normalize a fringe group and freak everyone out about it. Or, to be more charitable, it's an article about something that's happening within all genders in many countries (see MGTOW in America, for example), and is also about the fact that women still aren't treated equitably in South Korea. I don't see the point other than clicks. Beware articles about problems or trends that neglect to quantify anything.

lapcat 4y ago
> In 2019, the 4B movement claimed to have 4,000 members! "This movement—known as “the four no’s”—began in 2019. It has since spread..." > Beware articles about problems or trends that neglect to quantify anything. "Despite the solid academic credentials of women in South Korea, according to a study by Statista, the gender pay gap is scandalous: men earn 30% more than women. This makes the country, according to the Korean Herald, the most gender-unequal OECD nation." "According to a survey published by the Korean Institute of Criminology and Justice, eight out of 10 men admitted to having been violent towards their partner"
- baidifnaoxi 4y ago
  Pay gap studies are notorious for being overly ignorant of confounding factors. There probably is a pay gap but it’s incredibly hard to quantify and many studies choose to look only at $$ versus benefits (schedule flexibility, maternity leave, part time, etc) US studies for example don’t always consider that women overindex in less technical careers (teaching, humanities, etc), often those that have lower salaries but significantly higher benefits and more flexibility. Women also overindex in part time positions.
  - lapcat 4y ago
    > Pay gap studies are notorious for being overly ignorant of confounding factors. How about these factors? "Added to this is a poor work-life balance in South Korea, as well as a disparity in the distribution of domestic tasks. Women often assume the responsibility of raising children, pushing them to have to choose between working or being mothers. In South Korea, the work week is 52-hours-long." "Single mothers are stigmatized, doctors refuse to give IVF to women without a male partner—even though it’s not illegal—and out-of-wedlock births represent only 2% of the total, compared to the average of 41% for women in the OECD. Marriage and childbirth are closely intertwined; women are pressured to sacrifice their career once they have a child or get married."
    - gruez 4y ago
      >> Pay gap studies are notorious for being overly ignorant of confounding factors. >How about these factors? >"Added to this is a poor work-life balance in South Korea, as well as a disparity in the distribution of domestic tasks. Women often assume the responsibility of raising children, pushing them to have to choose between working or being mothers. In South Korea, the work week is 52-hours-long." None of what you said contradicts the parent post, which was talking about pay gap (ie. when it comes to employment). What you've quoted is about "distribution of domestic tasks", which is specifically outside of employment.
      - lapcat 4y ago
        > What you've quoted is about "distribution of domestic tasks", which is specifically outside of employment. They're directly related, because time spent on domestic tasks takes away time available for the notoriously time-intensive South Korean work culture. Moreover, time spent child rearing also takes away time available for paid work. Of course many women choose to do this, but the question is to what extent this choice is forced upon them by various circumstances: society's expectations, the father's refusal to spend equal time child rearing, lack of accommodation for child rearing for both mothers and fathers by employers, etc. There are many high paying jobs that employers refuse to hire at "part time", so they're excluding everyone who has significant time responsibilities outside of work. Also, employers tend to look unkindly at "gaps" in one's résumé, and time spent on childcare is an important example of a gap. These gaps can also make it more difficult to get promoted to higher positions within a company—those higher positions naturally coming with higher compensation. A lot of people seem to think that women are just "choosing" lower paid positions, but realistically, what other choice to they have, other than remaining childless? Employers seem to act as if children didn't exist, or are some kind of "illness" that at most warrants a few weeks off.
- 55555 4y ago
  I read the article. A sibling commenter has already mentioned the big issue with pay gap studies. I will only add that you can find studies showing domestic abuse prevalence at anywhere from 0% to 100% depending on what they define as abuse and how the survey is done. The article didn't really provide enough context for me to take the statistic seriously, as I know a lot of Korean people and personally struggle to believe that 8 out of 10 of them beat their wives. (The rate of abuse from women towards men would also be relevant for context.) The first google snippet for "domestic violence south korea" says "According to the results of a 2021 study on violence against women, which the Korean Women's Development Institute conducted via a research contract with the Ministry of Gender Equality and Family, out of 7,000 adult women surveyed, 16.1% or 1,124 women had experienced physical, sexual, emotional, or financial violence" You can't simplify something like this down to a simple number and then scream bloody murder.
  - lapcat 4y ago
    > I know a lot of Korean people and personally struggle to believe that 8 out of 10 of them beat their wives. Nobody thinks that their friends are wife beaters.
    - 55555 4y ago
      I should have been more specific in my original comment and shouldn't have said "beware articles that don't quantify" things as it was indeed unduly confusing.
allenbrunson 4y ago
from the article: > For three consecutive years, the country has had the lowest fertility rate in the world, with an average of 0.78 children per woman. [...] The country is on alert, since an average of 2.1 children per woman is estimated to be necessary to keep the population stable. In 2020, the number of deaths exceeded the number of births in South Korea. Many cities are at risk of disappearing in the coming years. you're going to have more of a problem writing that one off as "basically nothing."

by 55555 4y ago

lapcat 4y ago

> In 2019, the 4B movement claimed to have 4,000 members! "This movement—known as “the four no’s”—began in 2019. It has since spread..." > Beware articles about problems or trends that neglect to quantify anything. "Despite the solid academic credentials of women in South Korea, according to a study by Statista, the gender pay gap is scandalous: men earn 30% more than women. This makes the country, according to the Korean Herald, the most gender-unequal OECD nation." "According to a survey published by the Korean Institute of Criminology and Justice, eight out of 10 men admitted to having been violent towards their partner"

baidifnaoxi 4y ago
Pay gap studies are notorious for being overly ignorant of confounding factors. There probably is a pay gap but it’s incredibly hard to quantify and many studies choose to look only at $$ versus benefits (schedule flexibility, maternity leave, part time, etc) US studies for example don’t always consider that women overindex in less technical careers (teaching, humanities, etc), often those that have lower salaries but significantly higher benefits and more flexibility. Women also overindex in part time positions.
- lapcat 4y ago
  > Pay gap studies are notorious for being overly ignorant of confounding factors. How about these factors? "Added to this is a poor work-life balance in South Korea, as well as a disparity in the distribution of domestic tasks. Women often assume the responsibility of raising children, pushing them to have to choose between working or being mothers. In South Korea, the work week is 52-hours-long." "Single mothers are stigmatized, doctors refuse to give IVF to women without a male partner—even though it’s not illegal—and out-of-wedlock births represent only 2% of the total, compared to the average of 41% for women in the OECD. Marriage and childbirth are closely intertwined; women are pressured to sacrifice their career once they have a child or get married."
  - gruez 4y ago
    >> Pay gap studies are notorious for being overly ignorant of confounding factors. >How about these factors? >"Added to this is a poor work-life balance in South Korea, as well as a disparity in the distribution of domestic tasks. Women often assume the responsibility of raising children, pushing them to have to choose between working or being mothers. In South Korea, the work week is 52-hours-long." None of what you said contradicts the parent post, which was talking about pay gap (ie. when it comes to employment). What you've quoted is about "distribution of domestic tasks", which is specifically outside of employment.
    - lapcat 4y ago
      > What you've quoted is about "distribution of domestic tasks", which is specifically outside of employment. They're directly related, because time spent on domestic tasks takes away time available for the notoriously time-intensive South Korean work culture. Moreover, time spent child rearing also takes away time available for paid work. Of course many women choose to do this, but the question is to what extent this choice is forced upon them by various circumstances: society's expectations, the father's refusal to spend equal time child rearing, lack of accommodation for child rearing for both mothers and fathers by employers, etc. There are many high paying jobs that employers refuse to hire at "part time", so they're excluding everyone who has significant time responsibilities outside of work. Also, employers tend to look unkindly at "gaps" in one's résumé, and time spent on childcare is an important example of a gap. These gaps can also make it more difficult to get promoted to higher positions within a company—those higher positions naturally coming with higher compensation. A lot of people seem to think that women are just "choosing" lower paid positions, but realistically, what other choice to they have, other than remaining childless? Employers seem to act as if children didn't exist, or are some kind of "illness" that at most warrants a few weeks off.
55555 4y ago
I read the article. A sibling commenter has already mentioned the big issue with pay gap studies. I will only add that you can find studies showing domestic abuse prevalence at anywhere from 0% to 100% depending on what they define as abuse and how the survey is done. The article didn't really provide enough context for me to take the statistic seriously, as I know a lot of Korean people and personally struggle to believe that 8 out of 10 of them beat their wives. (The rate of abuse from women towards men would also be relevant for context.) The first google snippet for "domestic violence south korea" says "According to the results of a 2021 study on violence against women, which the Korean Women's Development Institute conducted via a research contract with the Ministry of Gender Equality and Family, out of 7,000 adult women surveyed, 16.1% or 1,124 women had experienced physical, sexual, emotional, or financial violence" You can't simplify something like this down to a simple number and then scream bloody murder.
- lapcat 4y ago
  > I know a lot of Korean people and personally struggle to believe that 8 out of 10 of them beat their wives. Nobody thinks that their friends are wife beaters.
  - 55555 4y ago
    I should have been more specific in my original comment and shouldn't have said "beware articles that don't quantify" things as it was indeed unduly confusing.

allenbrunson 4y ago

from the article: > For three consecutive years, the country has had the lowest fertility rate in the world, with an average of 0.78 children per woman. [...] The country is on alert, since an average of 2.1 children per woman is estimated to be necessary to keep the population stable. In 2020, the number of deaths exceeded the number of births in South Korea. Many cities are at risk of disappearing in the coming years. you're going to have more of a problem writing that one off as "basically nothing."