5 ms·

I disagree. I don't mean that Ryzen 5800U lied about its stats or something, but the totality of the systems based on Ryzen 5800U is at best competitve with Int

I disagree. I don't mean that Ryzen 5800U lied about its stats or something, but the totality of the systems based on Ryzen 5800U is at best competitve with Intel systems and at worst Intel would look better. Unfortunately, the tuning that Apple have done is significant (more power-efficient screen, speakers and other assorted hardware that you would usually ignore). Also, even ignoring all of that, Apple M series are basically the only option for a resonably functional ARM device. I acknowledge Chromebook can be effectively transformed into Linux, but their focus on price shows.

arnaudsm 4y ago
Yes Apple shines especially on idle TDP, their battery life is impressive. Do you have benchmarks of Intel 11 gen beating Zen 3 ?
tjoff 4y ago
"being an arm device" is not an advantage though. Being on a less used architecture, in the PC context, has its downsides.
- hedora 4y ago
  Intel is rapidly losing the server market to Arm. So, if you are targeting phones or the cloud, having an Arm laptop is an advantage. (MacOS includes a hypervisor that runs Arm Linux better than any native Arm Linux device I can purchase for myself.)
  - tjoff 4y ago
    Most phones barely run anything but bytecode anyway. Iphones do, but the biggest advantage of an M1 in that case the advantage by far ought to be "runs macos" and not, "is arm". x86 rapidly losing in serverspace? No. If you work on servers you are still mostly working on x86. And in most cases it wouldn't matter anyway. Lot of hypotheticals to try and justify it.
    - kaba0 4y ago
      > Most phones barely run anything but bytecode anyway Since when? If you mean Android’s Java, it is mostly AOT compiled/cached machine code.
      - tjoff 4y ago
        Which runs just fine on x86 as well... My point was that the intersection between the low level programming where you do care about which architecture you are running on and phones is very very slim. Not saying that shouldn't be the case, but that is unfortunately where we are.
  - viraptor 4y ago
    That's normal thing. Emulated hardware is normally chosen so that is simplest to implement and the drivers are most common. (Before you go up to the specialised solutions) Hypervisor runs X better than native is true for almost any X for non-critical solutions.
- astrange 4y ago
  ARM (64-bit) is a much more secure architecture than Intel; it would be simply because it doesn't have variable-length instructions, but it also has PAC/BTI and more coming in ARMv9.
  - tjoff 4y ago
    Much more secure? Really? And you think it is relevant for a laptop?
    - sbuk 4y ago
      You clearly don’t think it is. Elucidate.
    - astrange 4y ago
      > Much more secure? Really? Really. > And you think it is relevant for a laptop? Yes, it's got your personal info and you run a web browser on it.
      - tjoff 4y ago
        There are so many more low hanging fruits that makes the architecture (in relation to arm vs. x86) completely irrelevant to the equation. When we get to those kind of details, maybe you shouldn't rely on drivers that were written without proper information about the hardware?
        astrange 4y ago
        No, in the web browser case this is literally the most important thing. Second most important would be hardware image/video codecs but that's an optional power optimization. Third would be setting up IOMMUs so the wifi chip can't read all your memory. Writing hardware drivers through reverse engineering is actually fairly common, not too difficult, and the people doing it for Asahi aren't running into problems - it's more like everyone else just assumes they will.
        4y ago
nicolaslem 4y ago
This is the difference right there. My daily driver is an 6800U (a slightly more efficient 5800U), the whole system idles on Linux at around 6W which is way too much to target whole day battery life. The performance is amazing though.

arnaudsm 4y ago

Yes Apple shines especially on idle TDP, their battery life is impressive. Do you have benchmarks of Intel 11 gen beating Zen 3 ?

tjoff 4y ago

"being an arm device" is not an advantage though. Being on a less used architecture, in the PC context, has its downsides.

hedora 4y ago
Intel is rapidly losing the server market to Arm. So, if you are targeting phones or the cloud, having an Arm laptop is an advantage. (MacOS includes a hypervisor that runs Arm Linux better than any native Arm Linux device I can purchase for myself.)
- tjoff 4y ago
  Most phones barely run anything but bytecode anyway. Iphones do, but the biggest advantage of an M1 in that case the advantage by far ought to be "runs macos" and not, "is arm". x86 rapidly losing in serverspace? No. If you work on servers you are still mostly working on x86. And in most cases it wouldn't matter anyway. Lot of hypotheticals to try and justify it.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    > Most phones barely run anything but bytecode anyway Since when? If you mean Android’s Java, it is mostly AOT compiled/cached machine code.
    - tjoff 4y ago
      Which runs just fine on x86 as well... My point was that the intersection between the low level programming where you do care about which architecture you are running on and phones is very very slim. Not saying that shouldn't be the case, but that is unfortunately where we are.
- viraptor 4y ago
  That's normal thing. Emulated hardware is normally chosen so that is simplest to implement and the drivers are most common. (Before you go up to the specialised solutions) Hypervisor runs X better than native is true for almost any X for non-critical solutions.
astrange 4y ago
ARM (64-bit) is a much more secure architecture than Intel; it would be simply because it doesn't have variable-length instructions, but it also has PAC/BTI and more coming in ARMv9.
- tjoff 4y ago
  Much more secure? Really? And you think it is relevant for a laptop?
  - sbuk 4y ago
    You clearly don’t think it is. Elucidate.
  - astrange 4y ago
    > Much more secure? Really? Really. > And you think it is relevant for a laptop? Yes, it's got your personal info and you run a web browser on it.
    - tjoff 4y ago
      There are so many more low hanging fruits that makes the architecture (in relation to arm vs. x86) completely irrelevant to the equation. When we get to those kind of details, maybe you shouldn't rely on drivers that were written without proper information about the hardware?
      - astrange 4y ago
        No, in the web browser case this is literally the most important thing. Second most important would be hardware image/video codecs but that's an optional power optimization. Third would be setting up IOMMUs so the wifi chip can't read all your memory. Writing hardware drivers through reverse engineering is actually fairly common, not too difficult, and the people doing it for Asahi aren't running into problems - it's more like everyone else just assumes they will.
        4y ago

nicolaslem 4y ago

This is the difference right there. My daily driver is an 6800U (a slightly more efficient 5800U), the whole system idles on Linux at around 6W which is way too much to target whole day battery life. The performance is amazing though.