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Everyone here is jumping to technical solutions... it's far easier to fix this on the business side: Drivers are paid per mile. There's an incentive to break th

Everyone here is jumping to technical solutions... it's far easier to fix this on the business side: Drivers are paid per mile. There's an incentive to break the law. So... maybe start by outlawing a practice that incentivizes breaking the law and we wouldn't have these issues.

crote 4y ago
The interesting thing is that a technical solution already exists as has been in use in Europe for decades. Each driver has a single unique physical "driver card" which needs to be inserted into a tamper-proof recording device in the vehicle. Driving hours are recorded both on the driver card, and on the vehicle-bound recording device. Want to use two drivers in a shift? Well, you gotta put it on dual-driver mode and insert both cards. Good luck trying to explain where your ghost driver is when you get pulled over for a random check. It seems ELD Rider is just a random Android app instead. No wonder people are committing fraud with it - there's no way to ensure the accuracy of that!
- exabrial 4y ago
  > tamper-proof recording device in the vehicle Physical access dominates, every single time.
  - TheCapn 4y ago
    Tamper proof seals? In my line of work we use Scale Indicators that are calibrated by Weights & Measures Canada. Once the audit is completed the unit is sealed with a destructible seal and record of inspection is recorded. If that seal is ever tampered with by someone not authorized to do so there are big fines. So yeah, it would be easy for us to snap those seals and drop custom programs into the indicators all day every day. There's also stupid-obvious methods to prevent tampering.
    - exabrial 4y ago
      Tamper seals are enh. I uh… well Hey here’s a YouTube video on it: https://youtu.be/xUJtqvYDnkg https://youtu.be/xUJtqvYDnkg And let’s not even discuss software exploits
      - TheCapn 4y ago
        The seals I refer to are wires. The screws securing the sensitive parts of the terminal have holes through them where you thread the seal through several of them. Basically it is impossible to loosen the screws without breaking the seal. The entire device is a metal enclosure so the only way in is through the screws.
  - amalcon 4y ago
    In practice, there are a lot of devices around for which tampering would be profitable. Making these devices resist tampering is a practice with a long history of good (though imperfect) results. Your electric meter is a great example, or the odometer in your car. Yes, grandparent said tamper-proof instead of tamper-resistant or tamper-evident. So? It's obvious what they meant.
jedberg 4y ago
How would you incentivize truck drivers without encouraging law-breaking? Per mile and per hour both encourage driving more. And per load does too, because you can get in more loads if you drive more hours (and faster!). The only way you could avoid it is paying a flat salary. But the companies would never do that because then the drivers would go slowly and follow all the laws, cutting their profits. And besides, most truck drivers are owner/operators, so there is no one to pay them a salary. Unless the government steps in. Have the government pay them for resting, so they make the same money either way. That's about the only way I can think of.
- kd5bjo 4y ago
  You could also require the per-mile payments to match what the electronic logs show, so that driving off the clock means that they’re driving for free.
- bsder 4y ago
  > per hour both encourage driving more. That doesn't make sense. Whether you delivered one load or two loads in 12 hours, you get paid the same. In addition, it incentivizes the idiots at load and unload to do their job as the trucker doesn't care if he sits as he gets paid the same. "Per hour" is really the only thing that aligns the truck drivers with overall safety. You still need these kinds of trackers as the trucking companies will then be incentivized to give drivers 12 hours to drive 2500 miles, but at least you won't have the truckers trying to subvert them, as well.
cwmma 4y ago
this would also fix the issue of treating truckers as free storage by making them wait (unpaid) excessively long amounts of time to drop their load off

crote 4y ago

The interesting thing is that a technical solution already exists as has been in use in Europe for decades. Each driver has a single unique physical "driver card" which needs to be inserted into a tamper-proof recording device in the vehicle. Driving hours are recorded both on the driver card, and on the vehicle-bound recording device. Want to use two drivers in a shift? Well, you gotta put it on dual-driver mode and insert both cards. Good luck trying to explain where your ghost driver is when you get pulled over for a random check. It seems ELD Rider is just a random Android app instead. No wonder people are committing fraud with it - there's no way to ensure the accuracy of that!

exabrial 4y ago
> tamper-proof recording device in the vehicle Physical access dominates, every single time.
- TheCapn 4y ago
  Tamper proof seals? In my line of work we use Scale Indicators that are calibrated by Weights & Measures Canada. Once the audit is completed the unit is sealed with a destructible seal and record of inspection is recorded. If that seal is ever tampered with by someone not authorized to do so there are big fines. So yeah, it would be easy for us to snap those seals and drop custom programs into the indicators all day every day. There's also stupid-obvious methods to prevent tampering.
  - exabrial 4y ago
    Tamper seals are enh. I uh… well Hey here’s a YouTube video on it: https://youtu.be/xUJtqvYDnkg https://youtu.be/xUJtqvYDnkg And let’s not even discuss software exploits
    - TheCapn 4y ago
      The seals I refer to are wires. The screws securing the sensitive parts of the terminal have holes through them where you thread the seal through several of them. Basically it is impossible to loosen the screws without breaking the seal. The entire device is a metal enclosure so the only way in is through the screws.
- amalcon 4y ago
  In practice, there are a lot of devices around for which tampering would be profitable. Making these devices resist tampering is a practice with a long history of good (though imperfect) results. Your electric meter is a great example, or the odometer in your car. Yes, grandparent said tamper-proof instead of tamper-resistant or tamper-evident. So? It's obvious what they meant.

jedberg 4y ago

How would you incentivize truck drivers without encouraging law-breaking? Per mile and per hour both encourage driving more. And per load does too, because you can get in more loads if you drive more hours (and faster!). The only way you could avoid it is paying a flat salary. But the companies would never do that because then the drivers would go slowly and follow all the laws, cutting their profits. And besides, most truck drivers are owner/operators, so there is no one to pay them a salary. Unless the government steps in. Have the government pay them for resting, so they make the same money either way. That's about the only way I can think of.

kd5bjo 4y ago
You could also require the per-mile payments to match what the electronic logs show, so that driving off the clock means that they’re driving for free.
bsder 4y ago
> per hour both encourage driving more. That doesn't make sense. Whether you delivered one load or two loads in 12 hours, you get paid the same. In addition, it incentivizes the idiots at load and unload to do their job as the trucker doesn't care if he sits as he gets paid the same. "Per hour" is really the only thing that aligns the truck drivers with overall safety. You still need these kinds of trackers as the trucking companies will then be incentivized to give drivers 12 hours to drive 2500 miles, but at least you won't have the truckers trying to subvert them, as well.

cwmma 4y ago

this would also fix the issue of treating truckers as free storage by making them wait (unpaid) excessively long amounts of time to drop their load off