9 ms·

Are you expecting a salary similar to the one you were getting at a FAANG though? Because that seems to be the main issue - FAANG people thinking they're worth

by esskay 4y ago

Are you expecting a salary similar to the one you were getting at a FAANG though? Because that seems to be the main issue - FAANG people thinking they're worth way more than they actually are.

em500 4y ago
“Moving down” can be more difficult than it looks. Anecdotally, employers can be reluctant to hire “overqualified” people (indicated by a high previous salary), because they believe these people will jump ship at the earliest higher paying opportunity elsewhere.
- hgsgm 4y ago
  New employer has no reason to know previous pay.
  - maxilevi 4y ago
    They can infer it from the employer name or just buy salary market data
  - red-iron-pine 4y ago
    Unless they're small they have HR, and HR has the time to do the research. Which is logging into Glassdoor or levels.fyi and checking. Shit you can do that right now and get some rough ballparks.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    If you were a Senior SWE at Google for 5 years, how do you imagine that a new employer won't realize that you were making a lot more than the $150K/yr they're proposing to stretch their budget to offer you?
- pklausler 4y ago
  Wouldn't anybody jump ship for a better job, though?
  - em500 4y ago
    Sure, but an ex-FAANGer probably has a better shot at actually getting hired at another FAANG (when the job market improves) than someone who's only worked at no-name shops or local governments.
    - nostrademons 4y ago
      The implied logic behind that is "I know my company is a worse option than many of the other ones out there, so I'm going to only hire people who those other companies would not do business with." It's inherently a low self-esteem attitude. People leave, sometimes suddenly and without warning. The high self-esteem way to deal with it is to do your best to provide an attractive working environment, accept that some people will leave, and try to learn from each departure. That way you have the option of profiting from the talented employee who totally could make more at a FAANG but happens to like your company because you provide good management, a worthwhile purpose, or the actual ability to write code rather than deal with company politics.
      - mixmastamyk 4y ago
        Reminds me of this chestnut: "We don't train our people! What if we do, and they leave?" "What if you don't, and they stay?" Heck, having someone sharp with a new perspective even for a year could significantly improve things for the better. If you get out of their way of course.
- taude 4y ago
  I don't think an elevated salary at a FAANG implies over-qualified, though. I phone-screened someone from a FAANG, and they knew very little about non-proprietary technologies that we used on a day-to-day. Any of the big-branded commercial apps, they weren't familiar with, and I can hire someone for a lot less with the required working knowledge AND know that they won't be resentful about it. I think it's going to take a year for some of the young engineers to level-set their careers in some places. I'm trying to remember how long it took after dot-com bubble busting, and back then I know a lot who went back for their MBAs, Law degrees, etc. during a softening market. And I know personally how long it took for me to recover to the same economic level. Also, I get emails a few times a week from recruiters saying something like "Ex-Meta Employee/ex-Faang available for employment", leads....
  - jghn 4y ago
    > and they knew very little about non-proprietary technologies that we used on a day-to-day. I had an eye opening experience several years ago. My group was partnering with a group at Google. Their developers were sharp, as one would expect. But were very lacking in what would otherwise be considered table stakes, the reason always wound back to they had a proprietary Google equivalent of X, so thus they weren't familiar with X. The one that really hit it home was that we had to teach them how to use Google Cloud, because at least at the time, internally Google folks didn't use GCP but instead used their own internal versions of things.
    - stcroixx 4y ago
      I'm running into this with increasing frequency, particularly people coming from Amazon. For example, they know nothing about something like Kafka because they've been using some Amazonified version of something similar instead. They of course we'll never be able to match what they used to make and it would be more risk than I want to take to have them use us as a stepping stone while they try to get back to that level.
      - QIYGT 4y ago
        You can learn everything most devs need to know about Kafka in a couple hours. I can't imagine why companies would ever hire based on current knowledge rather than problem solving skills and ability to learn.
msandford 4y ago
A kinder way to say this is "the talent entering the market is pushing wages down" or something like that. It's pretty rare that wages reflect worth. They reflect what employers have to / are willing to pay.
- jacknews 4y ago
  Of course, in general, employers are making way more from the work the employee does than they pay, otherwise why bother?
bee_rider 4y ago
I imagine most places wouldn’t turn their nose up at, like, and ex-Apple or ex-Google person. Facebook might not be as impressive.
Beaver117 4y ago
It will be painful to get a 50%+ paycut but I'm willing to accept any job - but like others guessed small companies instantly reject me. I only get interviews with other companies similar to FAANG, only for them to tell me they have a hiring feeeze. Or very early stage startups, like seed or series A, which I'm not comfortable joining.
- htrp 4y ago
  > but I'm willing to accept any job > Or very early stage startups, like seed or series A, which I'm not comfortable joining. Pick one of these two statements please.
  - CuriouslyC 4y ago
    He said any job, not any company
- endorphine 4y ago
  > It will be painful to get a 50%+ paycut Technically speaking, it's not a "paycut" if you're not currently getting paid.
maximinus_thrax 4y ago
> FAANG people thinking they're worth way more than they actually are. I find your tone concerning, considering there's something driving wages down (which if you're a wage worker should make you squirm regardless of how much you make). I feel some resentment against fellow workers (because it doesn't matter how much you make, if you MUST work to live, you're a worker), but it doesn't matter. Wages aren't tied to worth, or the value added to the business. If this was true, extrapolating from the sheer amount of money FAANG companies make, these compensation ranges should actually be higher. Wages are tied to the 'market', basically what companies are willing to pay. If they cartelize (like they did with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...) they can drive wages down. I wouldn't be surprised if we find out in the future that something similar is happening today, but I'm not wearing my tin foil hat yet.. Edit: Just to be clear, I don't work in a FAANG company.
- mgkimsal 4y ago
  There's a degree of truth in that, but I think it applies for larger companies, especially very profitable ones. On the smaller side, I've noticed that I can build the same 'thing' for two organizations, A & B. Org A will struggle to get any value from it, and Org B will make a killing from it. From my standpoint, it was approximately the same tech, same effort, often even similar problem space. But some companies are better at extracting value. You able to take software X and get $3M in sales from it? You'll have no problem paying me $150k. Someone else with same software X struggling to operate their company to make a profit... they won't be able to pay anything. This idea that someone is 'worth', say, $300k/year because of their skills or experience just doesn't seem all that productive. Or... perhaps what I've been hearing is people conflating what they 'should' get in the marketplace because of past experiences. Finding the companies and industries that can extract value from what you provide isn't always easy.
  - darth_avocado 4y ago
    Not a FAANG engineer but the whole idea of “worth” is a two sided affair and very subjective. You can decide your own worth and the other side can decide what they think you are worth. Neither side needs to be correct, but that’s how economies are structured. It’s totally fine to demand more for yourself because the companies will always try to pay you less. Are all engineers at banks less skilled than all engineers at say Facebook? Definitely not. But does that mean engineers at Facebook are worth less? Again, definitely not. It’s the engineers at banks who need to demand more. Personally as a non FAANG engineer I have my minimum for what I will work for. And I would rather be unemployed and do something of your own than work for less.
dayvid 4y ago
You're worth as much as you get paid. This applies to business owners negotiating business contracts and employees negotiating salaries. Don't understand the hate on FAANG salaries as it sets a precedent for higher tech salaries.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

by esskay 4y ago

Are you expecting a salary similar to the one you were getting at a FAANG though? Because that seems to be the main issue - FAANG people thinking they're worth way more than they actually are.

em500 4y ago

“Moving down” can be more difficult than it looks. Anecdotally, employers can be reluctant to hire “overqualified” people (indicated by a high previous salary), because they believe these people will jump ship at the earliest higher paying opportunity elsewhere.

hgsgm 4y ago
New employer has no reason to know previous pay.
- maxilevi 4y ago
  They can infer it from the employer name or just buy salary market data
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  Unless they're small they have HR, and HR has the time to do the research. Which is logging into Glassdoor or levels.fyi and checking. Shit you can do that right now and get some rough ballparks.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  If you were a Senior SWE at Google for 5 years, how do you imagine that a new employer won't realize that you were making a lot more than the $150K/yr they're proposing to stretch their budget to offer you?
pklausler 4y ago
Wouldn't anybody jump ship for a better job, though?
- em500 4y ago
  Sure, but an ex-FAANGer probably has a better shot at actually getting hired at another FAANG (when the job market improves) than someone who's only worked at no-name shops or local governments.
  - nostrademons 4y ago
    The implied logic behind that is "I know my company is a worse option than many of the other ones out there, so I'm going to only hire people who those other companies would not do business with." It's inherently a low self-esteem attitude. People leave, sometimes suddenly and without warning. The high self-esteem way to deal with it is to do your best to provide an attractive working environment, accept that some people will leave, and try to learn from each departure. That way you have the option of profiting from the talented employee who totally could make more at a FAANG but happens to like your company because you provide good management, a worthwhile purpose, or the actual ability to write code rather than deal with company politics.
    - mixmastamyk 4y ago
      Reminds me of this chestnut: "We don't train our people! What if we do, and they leave?" "What if you don't, and they stay?" Heck, having someone sharp with a new perspective even for a year could significantly improve things for the better. If you get out of their way of course.
taude 4y ago
I don't think an elevated salary at a FAANG implies over-qualified, though. I phone-screened someone from a FAANG, and they knew very little about non-proprietary technologies that we used on a day-to-day. Any of the big-branded commercial apps, they weren't familiar with, and I can hire someone for a lot less with the required working knowledge AND know that they won't be resentful about it. I think it's going to take a year for some of the young engineers to level-set their careers in some places. I'm trying to remember how long it took after dot-com bubble busting, and back then I know a lot who went back for their MBAs, Law degrees, etc. during a softening market. And I know personally how long it took for me to recover to the same economic level. Also, I get emails a few times a week from recruiters saying something like "Ex-Meta Employee/ex-Faang available for employment", leads....
- jghn 4y ago
  > and they knew very little about non-proprietary technologies that we used on a day-to-day. I had an eye opening experience several years ago. My group was partnering with a group at Google. Their developers were sharp, as one would expect. But were very lacking in what would otherwise be considered table stakes, the reason always wound back to they had a proprietary Google equivalent of X, so thus they weren't familiar with X. The one that really hit it home was that we had to teach them how to use Google Cloud, because at least at the time, internally Google folks didn't use GCP but instead used their own internal versions of things.
  - stcroixx 4y ago
    I'm running into this with increasing frequency, particularly people coming from Amazon. For example, they know nothing about something like Kafka because they've been using some Amazonified version of something similar instead. They of course we'll never be able to match what they used to make and it would be more risk than I want to take to have them use us as a stepping stone while they try to get back to that level.
    - QIYGT 4y ago
      You can learn everything most devs need to know about Kafka in a couple hours. I can't imagine why companies would ever hire based on current knowledge rather than problem solving skills and ability to learn.

msandford 4y ago

A kinder way to say this is "the talent entering the market is pushing wages down" or something like that. It's pretty rare that wages reflect worth. They reflect what employers have to / are willing to pay.

jacknews 4y ago
Of course, in general, employers are making way more from the work the employee does than they pay, otherwise why bother?

bee_rider 4y ago

I imagine most places wouldn’t turn their nose up at, like, and ex-Apple or ex-Google person. Facebook might not be as impressive.

Beaver117 4y ago

It will be painful to get a 50%+ paycut but I'm willing to accept any job - but like others guessed small companies instantly reject me. I only get interviews with other companies similar to FAANG, only for them to tell me they have a hiring feeeze. Or very early stage startups, like seed or series A, which I'm not comfortable joining.

htrp 4y ago
> but I'm willing to accept any job > Or very early stage startups, like seed or series A, which I'm not comfortable joining. Pick one of these two statements please.
- CuriouslyC 4y ago
  He said any job, not any company
endorphine 4y ago
> It will be painful to get a 50%+ paycut Technically speaking, it's not a "paycut" if you're not currently getting paid.

maximinus_thrax 4y ago

> FAANG people thinking they're worth way more than they actually are. I find your tone concerning, considering there's something driving wages down (which if you're a wage worker should make you squirm regardless of how much you make). I feel some resentment against fellow workers (because it doesn't matter how much you make, if you MUST work to live, you're a worker), but it doesn't matter. Wages aren't tied to worth, or the value added to the business. If this was true, extrapolating from the sheer amount of money FAANG companies make, these compensation ranges should actually be higher. Wages are tied to the 'market', basically what companies are willing to pay. If they cartelize (like they did with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...) they can drive wages down. I wouldn't be surprised if we find out in the future that something similar is happening today, but I'm not wearing my tin foil hat yet.. Edit: Just to be clear, I don't work in a FAANG company.

mgkimsal 4y ago
There's a degree of truth in that, but I think it applies for larger companies, especially very profitable ones. On the smaller side, I've noticed that I can build the same 'thing' for two organizations, A & B. Org A will struggle to get any value from it, and Org B will make a killing from it. From my standpoint, it was approximately the same tech, same effort, often even similar problem space. But some companies are better at extracting value. You able to take software X and get $3M in sales from it? You'll have no problem paying me $150k. Someone else with same software X struggling to operate their company to make a profit... they won't be able to pay anything. This idea that someone is 'worth', say, $300k/year because of their skills or experience just doesn't seem all that productive. Or... perhaps what I've been hearing is people conflating what they 'should' get in the marketplace because of past experiences. Finding the companies and industries that can extract value from what you provide isn't always easy.
- darth_avocado 4y ago
  Not a FAANG engineer but the whole idea of “worth” is a two sided affair and very subjective. You can decide your own worth and the other side can decide what they think you are worth. Neither side needs to be correct, but that’s how economies are structured. It’s totally fine to demand more for yourself because the companies will always try to pay you less. Are all engineers at banks less skilled than all engineers at say Facebook? Definitely not. But does that mean engineers at Facebook are worth less? Again, definitely not. It’s the engineers at banks who need to demand more. Personally as a non FAANG engineer I have my minimum for what I will work for. And I would rather be unemployed and do something of your own than work for less.

dayvid 4y ago

You're worth as much as you get paid. This applies to business owners negotiating business contracts and employees negotiating salaries. Don't understand the hate on FAANG salaries as it sets a precedent for higher tech salaries.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]