6 ms·

Flashback to Steve Jobs' famous "Thoughts on Flash" https://newslang.ch/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Thoughts-on-Flash.pdf https://newslang.ch/wp-content/uploads/

Flashback to Steve Jobs' famous "Thoughts on Flash" https://newslang.ch/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Thoughts-on-Flash.pdf https://newslang.ch/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Thoughts-on-F... It was not well received at the time. Oh how things have changed.

gumby 4y ago
Well it wasn't received well by Adobe, who had by then bought Macromedia, nor by people who had tied their wagon to Flash. But Flash was pretty horrible even on most laptops and even many desktops of the day, and was a security nightmare. The complainers were loud, but I think the majority of people who cared (99% of humanity didn't even notice, of course) were muttering "amen brother!"
- exsf0859 4y ago
  Besides animation and games, Flash was also used for streaming video and video conferencing. iPhone customers were so desirable that, over time, the video streaming sites had to support Apple's video streaming format. They would have also supported Apple's video conferencing app, but I think Apple was unable to open-source the protocols for the video conferencing format, due to patent issues.
  - duskwuff 4y ago
    > had to support Apple's video streaming format It's a little weird to call an open standard (like H264) "Apple's format".
    - Evidlo 4y ago
      H264 isn't open though, depending on your definition of open
      - duskwuff 4y ago
        Fine, pretend I said "industry standard" then. Either way it wasn't something Apple made.
    - lultimouomo 4y ago
      H264 is not a streaming format. HLS is, and it is pretty much "Apple's format". It's pretty backwards, and everyone was forced to support it because it was the one streaming format you could use in iStuff.
      - geocar 4y ago
        > It's pretty backwards I think it's pretty clever. There are a lot of usability issues with firewalls and proxies that make implementing other streaming protocols very difficult, and the HLS design basically causes the implementer to adopt a pattern that is resilient to those problems. Networks got a lot better after Covid had everyone work from home so IT had to sort the hot-path out for videoconferencing. Nowadays I think WebRTC would be fine, but in 2009 I think HLS was pretty smart.
        lultimouomo 4y ago
        I am comparing HLS with other HTTP-based streaming formats - DASH and SmoothStreaming. They definitely have their issues (DASH in particular is the epitome of the second system syndrome) but they fix the two most glaring issues with HLS: separate manifests and non-aligned segments. Source: I write an HTTP streaming client library for a living.
        geocar 4y ago
        How can HLS be a move backwards if it came out before DASH and SS? Why do you think users care about “separate manifests and non-aligned segments” more than the video playing and not stalling and having to refresh?
        lultimouomo 4y ago
        SS came out in 2008, HLS in 2009. Separate manifests and non aligned segments have a real impact on the ability of the client to switch qualities in responsabilità to bandwith change, and this to avoid stalling. BTW, when I say "HLS is pretty backwards" I mean designed unergonomically and without clear requirements in mind, not a step back from what existed before. I would guess this is because the original specification was something like "whatever Major League Baseball can easily stream from their existing setup" (see the various Pantos drafts that ultimately became RFC8216)
lmm 4y ago
Have they? I would say the subsequent ~10 years of the web have vindicated Flash. HTML5 video hasn't made websites lighter or less annoying - quite the opposite (indeed video ads are a worse problem than Flash ads ever were). Meanwhile creativity and innovation on the web have taken a hit. 10+ years on there's still nothing that allows a lone auteur to produce a web experience as easily and effectively as you could with Flash (it seems to be possible to match Flash, a la the NYT's Snow Fall or the previous Madogatari intro, but not at a level that's accessible to an individual creator), and we're all worse off for it.
- rektide 4y ago
  This keeps coming up, but it keeps seeming hogwash & backwards. There are dozens & dozens of really really good html/svg animation products that give Flash like capabilities. But there's vastly less interest in this stuff today. Fun/simple/quirky Flash-like stuff isn't nearly as unique or novel, now that we have much more upscale products & experiences. It was a magical time & Flash helped, but we've changed & these rose-colored glasses views on Flash never point out all the myriad of ways it was awful, choppy, poorly integrated, quirky to work with, & otherwise difficult. If you want higher there are hundreds of web-dev targeting game dev systems which can be put to use. Many of these actually do have popularity. In spite of their being good Flash-ish animation toolkits, it doesn't feel like there's a ton of demand or clear winners. It's hard to imagine what we'd want it for today.
  - lmm 4y ago
    I think the demand is there, but you underestimate how much difference the tiny inconveniences make. Like, maybe there's stuff out there that can do the same thing, but the people who are just starting out don't know where it is (hell, I'm an experienced programmer and I don't know where it is) or what to pick up. A lot of those great Flash works were made by literal schoolkids, or more often by young adults who'd got their start as schoolkids and gradually refined their craft, because you could just pick up Flash and start doing things, and kids did. From what I hear maybe Roblox is filling the same niche now, but that's only happened in the last few years, and for all that Flash was notionally proprietary and poorly-integrated with the open web, having it right there in your browser was still a win.
Groxx 4y ago
It was divisive, but I wouldn't say "not well received". The "Flash deserves death" camp was very large and very, very happy that someone with power was finally calling them out on their horrific security record. Losing the high-quality authoring environment, without anyone producing something competitive, was a pretty big blow. But for the rest, I'm quite glad to see invasive browser plugins disappear.
wlesieutre 4y ago
Maybe not well received from Windows users? It had some fun games but on the Mac side it was always an unstable dumpster fire. Having the iPhone browser start to push people away from making entire Flash-based websites so they could play music and crash my browser was a godsend.
dutzi 4y ago
There was also the Adobe Loves Apple campaign https://www.fastcompany.com/1646594/adobe-launches-hearts-and-minds-pr-campaign-bite-apple https://www.fastcompany.com/1646594/adobe-launches-hearts-an...
twelvedogs 4y ago
It was incredibly well received by web devs

gumby 4y ago

Well it wasn't received well by Adobe, who had by then bought Macromedia, nor by people who had tied their wagon to Flash. But Flash was pretty horrible even on most laptops and even many desktops of the day, and was a security nightmare. The complainers were loud, but I think the majority of people who cared (99% of humanity didn't even notice, of course) were muttering "amen brother!"

exsf0859 4y ago
Besides animation and games, Flash was also used for streaming video and video conferencing. iPhone customers were so desirable that, over time, the video streaming sites had to support Apple's video streaming format. They would have also supported Apple's video conferencing app, but I think Apple was unable to open-source the protocols for the video conferencing format, due to patent issues.
- duskwuff 4y ago
  > had to support Apple's video streaming format It's a little weird to call an open standard (like H264) "Apple's format".
  - Evidlo 4y ago
    H264 isn't open though, depending on your definition of open
    - duskwuff 4y ago
      Fine, pretend I said "industry standard" then. Either way it wasn't something Apple made.
  - lultimouomo 4y ago
    H264 is not a streaming format. HLS is, and it is pretty much "Apple's format". It's pretty backwards, and everyone was forced to support it because it was the one streaming format you could use in iStuff.
    - geocar 4y ago
      > It's pretty backwards I think it's pretty clever. There are a lot of usability issues with firewalls and proxies that make implementing other streaming protocols very difficult, and the HLS design basically causes the implementer to adopt a pattern that is resilient to those problems. Networks got a lot better after Covid had everyone work from home so IT had to sort the hot-path out for videoconferencing. Nowadays I think WebRTC would be fine, but in 2009 I think HLS was pretty smart.
      - lultimouomo 4y ago
        I am comparing HLS with other HTTP-based streaming formats - DASH and SmoothStreaming. They definitely have their issues (DASH in particular is the epitome of the second system syndrome) but they fix the two most glaring issues with HLS: separate manifests and non-aligned segments. Source: I write an HTTP streaming client library for a living.
        geocar 4y ago
        How can HLS be a move backwards if it came out before DASH and SS? Why do you think users care about “separate manifests and non-aligned segments” more than the video playing and not stalling and having to refresh?
        lultimouomo 4y ago
        SS came out in 2008, HLS in 2009. Separate manifests and non aligned segments have a real impact on the ability of the client to switch qualities in responsabilità to bandwith change, and this to avoid stalling. BTW, when I say "HLS is pretty backwards" I mean designed unergonomically and without clear requirements in mind, not a step back from what existed before. I would guess this is because the original specification was something like "whatever Major League Baseball can easily stream from their existing setup" (see the various Pantos drafts that ultimately became RFC8216)

lmm 4y ago

Have they? I would say the subsequent ~10 years of the web have vindicated Flash. HTML5 video hasn't made websites lighter or less annoying - quite the opposite (indeed video ads are a worse problem than Flash ads ever were). Meanwhile creativity and innovation on the web have taken a hit. 10+ years on there's still nothing that allows a lone auteur to produce a web experience as easily and effectively as you could with Flash (it seems to be possible to match Flash, a la the NYT's Snow Fall or the previous Madogatari intro, but not at a level that's accessible to an individual creator), and we're all worse off for it.

rektide 4y ago
This keeps coming up, but it keeps seeming hogwash & backwards. There are dozens & dozens of really really good html/svg animation products that give Flash like capabilities. But there's vastly less interest in this stuff today. Fun/simple/quirky Flash-like stuff isn't nearly as unique or novel, now that we have much more upscale products & experiences. It was a magical time & Flash helped, but we've changed & these rose-colored glasses views on Flash never point out all the myriad of ways it was awful, choppy, poorly integrated, quirky to work with, & otherwise difficult. If you want higher there are hundreds of web-dev targeting game dev systems which can be put to use. Many of these actually do have popularity. In spite of their being good Flash-ish animation toolkits, it doesn't feel like there's a ton of demand or clear winners. It's hard to imagine what we'd want it for today.
- lmm 4y ago
  I think the demand is there, but you underestimate how much difference the tiny inconveniences make. Like, maybe there's stuff out there that can do the same thing, but the people who are just starting out don't know where it is (hell, I'm an experienced programmer and I don't know where it is) or what to pick up. A lot of those great Flash works were made by literal schoolkids, or more often by young adults who'd got their start as schoolkids and gradually refined their craft, because you could just pick up Flash and start doing things, and kids did. From what I hear maybe Roblox is filling the same niche now, but that's only happened in the last few years, and for all that Flash was notionally proprietary and poorly-integrated with the open web, having it right there in your browser was still a win.

Groxx 4y ago

It was divisive, but I wouldn't say "not well received". The "Flash deserves death" camp was very large and very, very happy that someone with power was finally calling them out on their horrific security record. Losing the high-quality authoring environment, without anyone producing something competitive, was a pretty big blow. But for the rest, I'm quite glad to see invasive browser plugins disappear.

wlesieutre 4y ago

Maybe not well received from Windows users? It had some fun games but on the Mac side it was always an unstable dumpster fire. Having the iPhone browser start to push people away from making entire Flash-based websites so they could play music and crash my browser was a godsend.

dutzi 4y ago

There was also the Adobe Loves Apple campaign https://www.fastcompany.com/1646594/adobe-launches-hearts-and-minds-pr-campaign-bite-apple https://www.fastcompany.com/1646594/adobe-launches-hearts-an...

twelvedogs 4y ago

It was incredibly well received by web devs