5 ms·

This article and comment section is bizarre to me. It's like travelling back in time to the 2000s. We've only used LEDs in my country for, what, 15 years now?

This article and comment section is bizarre to me. It's like travelling back in time to the 2000s. We've only used LEDs in my country for, what, 15 years now? They are perfectly fine, no issues really, much cheaper than incandescent bulbs of course. We just buy the ones in IKEA and they haven't really failed us so far.

rootusrootus 4y ago
> It's like travelling back in time to the 2000s. That's because it is. George W. Bush signed the death warrant for the incandescent bulb in the US in 2007. Incandescent bulbs are a niche product in the US, LEDs have been the mainstream choice for years.
cal85 4y ago
I guess you can't tell the difference? For me it's huge. I recently changed my bathroom downlights from dimmable LEDs to dimmable halogens, and it's so much nicer. The colour temperature was the same, so I guess it's not that. It's something else about the way they work. I don't profess to know why, but I can absolutely tell the difference, and I have a very clear preference now. And this is after a decade of me being very bullish on LEDs for environmental reasons and proudly fitting LEDs everywhere possible (expensive, carefully chosen ones too, with appropriate colour temperature). At the end of the day, LED light is just horrible for some reason.
- CapsAdmin 4y ago
  I also have the ikea home smart bubls. They're dimmable and can change color. It seems like some people are more sensetive to flickering light. I've asked people every now and then when in a group if they can tell the light is flickering, and I'm usually the only one. The effect is pronounced in my peripheral vision and somehow even more when drunk. I don't think these lights emit the entire spectrum of light either, but a spectrum that "fools" us to think we're seeing the whole spectrum. Maybe that feels uncomfortable for some? The ikea bulbs I have flicker a little when dimmed, but I don't really mind.
- simongray 4y ago
  I'm sorry, but to me you mostly just sound like an audiophile talking about how vinyl sounds better than CDs...
  - Spivak 4y ago
    They sound different and that’s the point. There’s a whole genre of music that sounds like vinyl or staticy tapes. Clearly people like it. People are going to express preferences for one or the other, telling people that LEDs are exact equivalents is just wrong. We can say, “yes they’re different, but the environment is more important [1], suck it up” but it changes the tone. [1] Which is such a joke, the waste from my electric stove or leaving the window open with the AC on uses more than the savings from LEDs. Halogens are already more expensive and you pay per watt so there’s not some horrible externality not being priced in.
  - cal85 4y ago
    Fair! Although I'm just reporting my preference and not making any contestable claims, other than that I can tell the difference. If someone can make an LED bulb where I can't tell the difference, then I'd fit my house with them, but it seems like this must be impossible or someone would have done it.
    - lambdaba 4y ago
      Just came to say I agree with your assessment 100%. I think it's about the fact that incandescent light is a broader spectrum. It seems to affect the say shadows are cast etc. It's just not as nice as incandescent.
- tomtheelder 4y ago
  I had literally the exact opposite experience when swapping mine out. Both the incandescent and halogen replacements resulted in a _way_ better quality of lighting. And these were just like "first ones off the shelf" from the Home Depot or something- I'm not exactly sure it was maybe 10 years ago. But I vividly remember thinking how much better the lighting quality was, and I had far more options in terms of color temp, which was great.
- globular-toast 4y ago
  I think it's the flicker. Pulse width modulation is evil. I'm not aware of a single instance where it's preferable over an analogue adjustment. It's a horrible and thoroughly "non-human" solution to a problem. The most annoying thing for me is that car headlights are now PWM LEDs. I can see the flicker, especially in my peripheral vision. It's highly distracting and annoying.
  - mastercheif 4y ago
    PWM headlights should be illegal. Full stop.
  - slaymaker1907 4y ago
    I think PWM can be used with success if the frequency is high enough. https://www.dxomark.com/flicker-the-display-affliction/ https://www.dxomark.com/flicker-the-display-affliction/ claims that most people should be ok with PWM above 250Hz.
    - Zak 4y ago
      Flicker in smartphone displays has a different impact from flicker in lighting. One typically holds a smartphone fairly still while viewing it, but flickery lighting becomes evident when things illuminated by it move, or when the viewer moves their head or eyes relative to the light source. 250Hz flicker in very visible in lighting under certain circumstances. I'm of the opinion lighting should be flicker-free, or at least over about 5kHz.
- Zak 4y ago
  There are three factors: tint, flicker, and color rendering. You're familiar with color temperature - that's essentially the orange-blue axis for white light, but there's also a red/green tint axis to consider. Humans vision is most sensitive to green light, and the lumen as a unit is calibrated to human visual sensitivity. You'll never guess what companies trying to add a few more lm/W to their efficiency rating do to the tint. Incidentally, one study I read that doesn't seem to be online anymore found people prefer tints redder than incandescent bulbs. Flicker can come from running LEDs from AC, resulting in a low-frequency flicker that's very visible to more sensitive people. Incandescent bulbs change brightness much slower, so they're fine on AC. Another possibility is a power supply in the LED bulb that intentionally flickers the LEDs, usually at a higher frequency than mains power in order to control brightness with pulse-width modulation. Flicker-free variable constant current power supplies are available, but tend to be more expensive than PWM. Finally, color rendering is affected by the spectrum of the light. An incandescent bulb has a spectrum that peaks at a specific wavelength and falls off relatively smoothly to the sides. LEDs can have a wide variety of spectra, often with many peaks and valleys, such that the two light sources viewed directly can look the same, but render colors very differently. A crude measurement of this is color rendering index, and many LEDs advertise theirs. 100 is the highest possible rating, and over 95 is considered very good. The problem with CRI is it's based on a mere eight color samples, and leaves out some colors LEDs tend to be bad at. It's getting more common to see an R9 (deep red rendering) rating advertised. LEDs often do badly on R9, and there can be a big penalty to efficiency to achieve a high rating. Less commonly advertised, but also a common weakness for LEDs is R12 (deep blue rendering). I care about this stuff and use an LED videography panel with adjustable color temperature to light my work environment. It's neutral to slightly reddish, flicker-free, has excellent CRI (97) and R9 (98). R12 is a bit weak (82).
- IshKebab 4y ago
  You're right that the colour temperature isn't the whole story - it's a single number trying to represent a spectrum which is a line graph. So you can have wildly different spectra with the same CRI. But even so, good LEDs are perfectly fine. Don't assume that all LEDs are crap because you bought one cheap set and they weren't very good.
  - cal85 4y ago
    I have bought almost exclusively LED bulbs over the last 10-15 years. As a nerd, I always look fairly carefully at the specs, and I choose good ones. If, when I buy off-brand halogens one time without really looking into the technical details and it's like "Oh yeah, this is how artificial light is supposed to look", then that's a problem with LEDs, not with me not looking hard enough for good ones, because I look much harder than a typical consumer would.
01100011 4y ago
Seriously. I always thought I was very picky, both to flickering and color temp(3000k FTW). Sure, the >3000K bulbs look like death, and I've had issues with some bulbs flickering, but overall I'm really happy with the light output of my LEDs(color temp, CRI, stability, longevity). I'm in the US too. Not sure what folks are complaining about.

rootusrootus 4y ago

> It's like travelling back in time to the 2000s. That's because it is. George W. Bush signed the death warrant for the incandescent bulb in the US in 2007. Incandescent bulbs are a niche product in the US, LEDs have been the mainstream choice for years.

cal85 4y ago

I guess you can't tell the difference? For me it's huge. I recently changed my bathroom downlights from dimmable LEDs to dimmable halogens, and it's so much nicer. The colour temperature was the same, so I guess it's not that. It's something else about the way they work. I don't profess to know why, but I can absolutely tell the difference, and I have a very clear preference now. And this is after a decade of me being very bullish on LEDs for environmental reasons and proudly fitting LEDs everywhere possible (expensive, carefully chosen ones too, with appropriate colour temperature). At the end of the day, LED light is just horrible for some reason.

CapsAdmin 4y ago
I also have the ikea home smart bubls. They're dimmable and can change color. It seems like some people are more sensetive to flickering light. I've asked people every now and then when in a group if they can tell the light is flickering, and I'm usually the only one. The effect is pronounced in my peripheral vision and somehow even more when drunk. I don't think these lights emit the entire spectrum of light either, but a spectrum that "fools" us to think we're seeing the whole spectrum. Maybe that feels uncomfortable for some? The ikea bulbs I have flicker a little when dimmed, but I don't really mind.
simongray 4y ago
I'm sorry, but to me you mostly just sound like an audiophile talking about how vinyl sounds better than CDs...
- Spivak 4y ago
  They sound different and that’s the point. There’s a whole genre of music that sounds like vinyl or staticy tapes. Clearly people like it. People are going to express preferences for one or the other, telling people that LEDs are exact equivalents is just wrong. We can say, “yes they’re different, but the environment is more important [1], suck it up” but it changes the tone. [1] Which is such a joke, the waste from my electric stove or leaving the window open with the AC on uses more than the savings from LEDs. Halogens are already more expensive and you pay per watt so there’s not some horrible externality not being priced in.
- cal85 4y ago
  Fair! Although I'm just reporting my preference and not making any contestable claims, other than that I can tell the difference. If someone can make an LED bulb where I can't tell the difference, then I'd fit my house with them, but it seems like this must be impossible or someone would have done it.
  - lambdaba 4y ago
    Just came to say I agree with your assessment 100%. I think it's about the fact that incandescent light is a broader spectrum. It seems to affect the say shadows are cast etc. It's just not as nice as incandescent.
tomtheelder 4y ago
I had literally the exact opposite experience when swapping mine out. Both the incandescent and halogen replacements resulted in a _way_ better quality of lighting. And these were just like "first ones off the shelf" from the Home Depot or something- I'm not exactly sure it was maybe 10 years ago. But I vividly remember thinking how much better the lighting quality was, and I had far more options in terms of color temp, which was great.
globular-toast 4y ago
I think it's the flicker. Pulse width modulation is evil. I'm not aware of a single instance where it's preferable over an analogue adjustment. It's a horrible and thoroughly "non-human" solution to a problem. The most annoying thing for me is that car headlights are now PWM LEDs. I can see the flicker, especially in my peripheral vision. It's highly distracting and annoying.
- mastercheif 4y ago
  PWM headlights should be illegal. Full stop.
- slaymaker1907 4y ago
  I think PWM can be used with success if the frequency is high enough. https://www.dxomark.com/flicker-the-display-affliction/ https://www.dxomark.com/flicker-the-display-affliction/ claims that most people should be ok with PWM above 250Hz.
  - Zak 4y ago
    Flicker in smartphone displays has a different impact from flicker in lighting. One typically holds a smartphone fairly still while viewing it, but flickery lighting becomes evident when things illuminated by it move, or when the viewer moves their head or eyes relative to the light source. 250Hz flicker in very visible in lighting under certain circumstances. I'm of the opinion lighting should be flicker-free, or at least over about 5kHz.
Zak 4y ago
There are three factors: tint, flicker, and color rendering. You're familiar with color temperature - that's essentially the orange-blue axis for white light, but there's also a red/green tint axis to consider. Humans vision is most sensitive to green light, and the lumen as a unit is calibrated to human visual sensitivity. You'll never guess what companies trying to add a few more lm/W to their efficiency rating do to the tint. Incidentally, one study I read that doesn't seem to be online anymore found people prefer tints redder than incandescent bulbs. Flicker can come from running LEDs from AC, resulting in a low-frequency flicker that's very visible to more sensitive people. Incandescent bulbs change brightness much slower, so they're fine on AC. Another possibility is a power supply in the LED bulb that intentionally flickers the LEDs, usually at a higher frequency than mains power in order to control brightness with pulse-width modulation. Flicker-free variable constant current power supplies are available, but tend to be more expensive than PWM. Finally, color rendering is affected by the spectrum of the light. An incandescent bulb has a spectrum that peaks at a specific wavelength and falls off relatively smoothly to the sides. LEDs can have a wide variety of spectra, often with many peaks and valleys, such that the two light sources viewed directly can look the same, but render colors very differently. A crude measurement of this is color rendering index, and many LEDs advertise theirs. 100 is the highest possible rating, and over 95 is considered very good. The problem with CRI is it's based on a mere eight color samples, and leaves out some colors LEDs tend to be bad at. It's getting more common to see an R9 (deep red rendering) rating advertised. LEDs often do badly on R9, and there can be a big penalty to efficiency to achieve a high rating. Less commonly advertised, but also a common weakness for LEDs is R12 (deep blue rendering). I care about this stuff and use an LED videography panel with adjustable color temperature to light my work environment. It's neutral to slightly reddish, flicker-free, has excellent CRI (97) and R9 (98). R12 is a bit weak (82).
IshKebab 4y ago
You're right that the colour temperature isn't the whole story - it's a single number trying to represent a spectrum which is a line graph. So you can have wildly different spectra with the same CRI. But even so, good LEDs are perfectly fine. Don't assume that all LEDs are crap because you bought one cheap set and they weren't very good.
- cal85 4y ago
  I have bought almost exclusively LED bulbs over the last 10-15 years. As a nerd, I always look fairly carefully at the specs, and I choose good ones. If, when I buy off-brand halogens one time without really looking into the technical details and it's like "Oh yeah, this is how artificial light is supposed to look", then that's a problem with LEDs, not with me not looking hard enough for good ones, because I look much harder than a typical consumer would.

01100011 4y ago

Seriously. I always thought I was very picky, both to flickering and color temp(3000k FTW). Sure, the >3000K bulbs look like death, and I've had issues with some bulbs flickering, but overall I'm really happy with the light output of my LEDs(color temp, CRI, stability, longevity). I'm in the US too. Not sure what folks are complaining about.