6 ms·

At best, forcing developing countries to adhere to our labor standards would create a privileged labor aristocracy, leaving the poor majority no better off. I'

At best, forcing developing countries to adhere to our labor standards would create a privileged labor aristocracy, leaving the poor majority no better off. I'm tired of this apologist bullshit. It's been showing up in HN articles for weeks now. Yes, I understand the concept that the standard and cost of living are lower in China. I understand that it may be better to have children working than starving on the streets. I understand that rural farm life in China is terrible. That is absolutely no excuse for keeping people in near-slave conditions. That is no excuse for allowing people to be maimed (by machinery and by non-stop repetitive, back-to-back 12 - 16 hour shifts) with no compensation. That is no excuse for allowing people to be blacklisted if they make any complaint about working conditions. Apple is now sitting on $100 billion and still telling us that their products could never be manufactured in the US. Hilariously, one reason they cite is that you can't find a fab plant right next to a glass plant. Guess what? Build them both in the US, pay reasonable US wages, and provide reasonable US working conditions. If Apple's success requires that 8,000 people be put instantly onto production lines for insanely long shifts, day after day until their bodies fall apart, then their products should not exist.

mike_esspe 15y ago
Do you think this 8000 workers would be better of unemployed?
- LearnYouALisp 15y ago
  "Unde non sequitur..."
hahainternet 15y ago
I agree entirely. I wish I could pen a stronger endorsement. There's a not so subtle undercurrent of privilege that runs through a lot of the apologist postings and it drives me mad.
dgregd 15y ago
"That is absolutely no excuse for keeping people in near-slave conditions." Sure, just few clicks in Foxconn payroll system and problem solved. But Chinese don't want to do that because they are evil. Sorry for this harsh comment. I'm from post communist country and I'm also tired of that kind of thinking. IMHO the real reason why people support the idea of Apple boycott is that 8000 high wages engineering jobs has been moved to China. But it more political correct to talk about poop labor standards, etc.
- georgieporgie 15y ago
  But Chinese don't want to do that because they are evil. No idea what you're talking about with that line. This isn't simply about pay. It's about terrible working conditions. It's about the fact that Steve Jobs told Obama that his products could never be produced in the US because, apparently, his products require horrible working conditions in order to be produced. Frankly, I could care less what they get paid, so long as it's a livable wage in their region. What I care about is that employees are not stuck doing the exact same thing, day in and day out, until they're maimed by machinery or repetitive stress injuries. I care that people have a way to air their grievances without fear of blacklisting. 8000 high wages engineering jobs has been moved to China They have? The 8,000 I read about were assembly line workers, not engineers. As for moving jobs overseas, I take issue with Apple claiming that they have to due to a lack of manufacturing facilities when they have $100 billion in the bank.
  - coob 15y ago
    > It's about the fact that Steve Jobs told Obama that his products could never be produced in the US because, apparently, his products require horrible working conditions in order to be produced. Except if you read the bio, that's apparently not the reason he gave. It's because there are far more mid-level engineers over there. Not quite degree standard, but good enough to oversee production processes.
  - dgregd 15y ago
    Copied from the nytimes article. "Apple’s executives had estimated that about 8,700 industrial engineers were needed to oversee and guide the 200,000 assembly-line workers" "Mr. Saragoza, an engineer, quickly moved up the plant’s ranks and joined an elite diagnostic team. His salary climbed to $50,000. He and his wife had three children. They bought a home with a pool." "The worker, Lina Lin, is a project manager in Shenzhen, China" "Mrs. Lin earns a bit less than what Mr. Saragoza was paid by Apple ... She and her husband put a quarter of their salaries in the bank every month."
JanezStupar 15y ago
But this kind of a mechanism is what allowed Europe and Japan to rise after destruction of WW2. Both my parents were working in worse conditions as these Foxconn workers (I know that these are some of the better jobs in China) through 50's and 60's. When you're poor only hard work, smarts and luck can help you out. The harder you work, the smarter and luckier you are - better the odds. Look how much these (Foxconn) wages have risen in last 5 years - 100% if I'm right. On the other hand Foxconn is already working on increasing the automation of their pants. Be careful. Road to hell is paved with good intentions.
- georgieporgie 15y ago
  That argument has no merit. The United States kept slaves for 150 years. It doesn't mean that we should tolerate it when another nation repeats the same mistake, particularly when a US company is funding them. Look how much these (Foxconn) wages have risen in last 5 year Everyone is obsessing on wages. Let me state yet again: I don't care about wages, so long as their livable in the region. I care about working conditions.
  - JanezStupar 15y ago
    I strongly advise you to leave whatever comfortable western nation you are living in and go on a walkabout for a while. Hell, you are free to go and build a company that will do better. What you lack is the perspective of these workers. Foxconn assembly job is an opportunity equivalent to a Ivy League diploma for most of these workers. They have no intention to work this job 10-20 years. This is Chinese rural equivalent of doing a startup. Work for 2-3 years, build a nest egg, go to school/start your own business. And working/living conditions are actually pretty good for Asian standards. No chemicals, clean environment. Yes hours are long, labor is hard, but the pay is phenomenal. Let me finish with an anecdote. My neighbors grandfather was a emigrant miner for twenty years. He always told his wife, that when he made enough money, they would return to home country and she would never have to work. They did and bought a property with some land. One day they were working in the field and the wife complained that he promised she wouldn't have to work. He paused, looked her in the eye and said: "Honey, this is not work."
AllenKids 15y ago
It's all so emotional isn't it? If you rage harder maybe our Chinese people's life would magically become better. Or in fact you do not care as long as your shinny new toys are isolated from the poverty and suffering of the rest of the world and manufactured in your sunshine and rainbow and god's chosen America. Apple's success enabled Foxconn and other suppliers to employ literally millions of Chinese people, millions of otherwise poorer people to each send home $3000+ dollers per year. It's ugly, it could be better, some aspects of the factory life need immediate improvement even by Chinese standard, on humanitarian reasons alone. It has nothing to do with Apple's 100B reserve. It's not that Apple can not afford it. It's my country, China, with its vast under educated labor surplus can not afford the US dream, can not abandon low value add manufacturing industry.
- georgieporgie 15y ago
  Or in fact you do not care as long as your shinny new toys are isolated from the poverty and suffering of the rest of the world and manufactured in your sunshine and rainbow and god's chosen America. Instead of being a dick, why don't you read what I've written more closely? Manufacturing in the US is just one option, which I suggest because they insist that they can't possibly do anything to improve labor conditions at the Chinese factories. China, with its vast under educated labor surplus can not afford the US dream, can not abandon low value add manufacturing industry. Nobody is saying China should abandon its manufacturing industry. People are saying that labor conditions should be better. This can be done without destroying China's manufacturing sector.
  - AllenKids 15y ago
    I'm an asshole, not a dick. Mind you. Apple can and is trying to improve the labor conditions at its supply chain. That's the whole point of its annul report. Foxconn is trying too. Those companies' primary goal is money, suicide workers cost a lot of money. Bad PR cost a lot of money. What's impossible is suddenly western standard living, what's impossible is immediate strict labor law enforcement, what's impossible is working condition the same level as in the US.
MarkMc 15y ago
I don't understand your argument. I agree that Apple could move production back to the US and still be quite profitable. But wouldn't that mean that thousands of Chinese workers would be worse off?
- georgieporgie 15y ago
  That's not what I'm saying at all. Those are simply two options. The option to produce in the US is followed naturally from their own claims, and is countered by more lies and rationalizations. Hippie: "Hey Apple, why don't you require that suppliers improve labor conditions in their factories?" Apple response 1) "We can't pay Chinese workers what American workers make!" Hippe: "Okay, fine, but I wasn't talking about wages. I was talking about labor conditions. Stop working people on ridiculously long shifts, doing the same thing day in, and day out, until they're maimed. Stop blacklisting people with valid complaints." Apple response 2) "We can't raise wages, that would create a local aristocracy!" Hippie: "Again, I'm not talking about wages, so long as they're livable in the region. I'm talking about labor conditions. Also, what exactly would be wrong with a local aristocracy? Management always says that a rising tide lifts all boats as it pays itself a healthy bonus, after all." Hippie: "Okay, Apple, since you refuse to pursue reasonable working conditions in China, why don't you manufacture in the US, according to US standards of pay and treatment?" Apple: "Oh, no, no, we couldn't do that! The US doesn't have the manufacturing ability. We need a fabrication facility next door to a glass facility!" Hippie: "You have $100 billion. You can build both in, say, North Carolina." Apple: "No, no, American workers don't have the work ethic that is necessary to produce Apple products. Besides, China educates the mid-level engineers that we need to manage factory floors." Hippie: "By work ethic, you mean the ability to rouse 8,000 people from corporate housing and immediately put them to work on back-to-back 16 hour shifts, all because you couldn't get your engineering spec done in a reasonable time? And wasn't I just reading about how there are a large number of unemployed, middle-aged Americans who have experience managing factories floors, who can't find work because such factories no longer exist?"

mike_esspe 15y ago

Do you think this 8000 workers would be better of unemployed?

LearnYouALisp 15y ago
"Unde non sequitur..."

hahainternet 15y ago

I agree entirely. I wish I could pen a stronger endorsement. There's a not so subtle undercurrent of privilege that runs through a lot of the apologist postings and it drives me mad.

dgregd 15y ago

"That is absolutely no excuse for keeping people in near-slave conditions." Sure, just few clicks in Foxconn payroll system and problem solved. But Chinese don't want to do that because they are evil. Sorry for this harsh comment. I'm from post communist country and I'm also tired of that kind of thinking. IMHO the real reason why people support the idea of Apple boycott is that 8000 high wages engineering jobs has been moved to China. But it more political correct to talk about poop labor standards, etc.

georgieporgie 15y ago
But Chinese don't want to do that because they are evil. No idea what you're talking about with that line. This isn't simply about pay. It's about terrible working conditions. It's about the fact that Steve Jobs told Obama that his products could never be produced in the US because, apparently, his products require horrible working conditions in order to be produced. Frankly, I could care less what they get paid, so long as it's a livable wage in their region. What I care about is that employees are not stuck doing the exact same thing, day in and day out, until they're maimed by machinery or repetitive stress injuries. I care that people have a way to air their grievances without fear of blacklisting. 8000 high wages engineering jobs has been moved to China They have? The 8,000 I read about were assembly line workers, not engineers. As for moving jobs overseas, I take issue with Apple claiming that they have to due to a lack of manufacturing facilities when they have $100 billion in the bank.
- coob 15y ago
  > It's about the fact that Steve Jobs told Obama that his products could never be produced in the US because, apparently, his products require horrible working conditions in order to be produced. Except if you read the bio, that's apparently not the reason he gave. It's because there are far more mid-level engineers over there. Not quite degree standard, but good enough to oversee production processes.
- dgregd 15y ago
  Copied from the nytimes article. "Apple’s executives had estimated that about 8,700 industrial engineers were needed to oversee and guide the 200,000 assembly-line workers" "Mr. Saragoza, an engineer, quickly moved up the plant’s ranks and joined an elite diagnostic team. His salary climbed to $50,000. He and his wife had three children. They bought a home with a pool." "The worker, Lina Lin, is a project manager in Shenzhen, China" "Mrs. Lin earns a bit less than what Mr. Saragoza was paid by Apple ... She and her husband put a quarter of their salaries in the bank every month."

JanezStupar 15y ago

But this kind of a mechanism is what allowed Europe and Japan to rise after destruction of WW2. Both my parents were working in worse conditions as these Foxconn workers (I know that these are some of the better jobs in China) through 50's and 60's. When you're poor only hard work, smarts and luck can help you out. The harder you work, the smarter and luckier you are - better the odds. Look how much these (Foxconn) wages have risen in last 5 years - 100% if I'm right. On the other hand Foxconn is already working on increasing the automation of their pants. Be careful. Road to hell is paved with good intentions.

georgieporgie 15y ago
That argument has no merit. The United States kept slaves for 150 years. It doesn't mean that we should tolerate it when another nation repeats the same mistake, particularly when a US company is funding them. Look how much these (Foxconn) wages have risen in last 5 year Everyone is obsessing on wages. Let me state yet again: I don't care about wages, so long as their livable in the region. I care about working conditions.
- JanezStupar 15y ago
  I strongly advise you to leave whatever comfortable western nation you are living in and go on a walkabout for a while. Hell, you are free to go and build a company that will do better. What you lack is the perspective of these workers. Foxconn assembly job is an opportunity equivalent to a Ivy League diploma for most of these workers. They have no intention to work this job 10-20 years. This is Chinese rural equivalent of doing a startup. Work for 2-3 years, build a nest egg, go to school/start your own business. And working/living conditions are actually pretty good for Asian standards. No chemicals, clean environment. Yes hours are long, labor is hard, but the pay is phenomenal. Let me finish with an anecdote. My neighbors grandfather was a emigrant miner for twenty years. He always told his wife, that when he made enough money, they would return to home country and she would never have to work. They did and bought a property with some land. One day they were working in the field and the wife complained that he promised she wouldn't have to work. He paused, looked her in the eye and said: "Honey, this is not work."

AllenKids 15y ago

It's all so emotional isn't it? If you rage harder maybe our Chinese people's life would magically become better. Or in fact you do not care as long as your shinny new toys are isolated from the poverty and suffering of the rest of the world and manufactured in your sunshine and rainbow and god's chosen America. Apple's success enabled Foxconn and other suppliers to employ literally millions of Chinese people, millions of otherwise poorer people to each send home $3000+ dollers per year. It's ugly, it could be better, some aspects of the factory life need immediate improvement even by Chinese standard, on humanitarian reasons alone. It has nothing to do with Apple's 100B reserve. It's not that Apple can not afford it. It's my country, China, with its vast under educated labor surplus can not afford the US dream, can not abandon low value add manufacturing industry.

georgieporgie 15y ago
Or in fact you do not care as long as your shinny new toys are isolated from the poverty and suffering of the rest of the world and manufactured in your sunshine and rainbow and god's chosen America. Instead of being a dick, why don't you read what I've written more closely? Manufacturing in the US is just one option, which I suggest because they insist that they can't possibly do anything to improve labor conditions at the Chinese factories. China, with its vast under educated labor surplus can not afford the US dream, can not abandon low value add manufacturing industry. Nobody is saying China should abandon its manufacturing industry. People are saying that labor conditions should be better. This can be done without destroying China's manufacturing sector.
- AllenKids 15y ago
  I'm an asshole, not a dick. Mind you. Apple can and is trying to improve the labor conditions at its supply chain. That's the whole point of its annul report. Foxconn is trying too. Those companies' primary goal is money, suicide workers cost a lot of money. Bad PR cost a lot of money. What's impossible is suddenly western standard living, what's impossible is immediate strict labor law enforcement, what's impossible is working condition the same level as in the US.

MarkMc 15y ago

I don't understand your argument. I agree that Apple could move production back to the US and still be quite profitable. But wouldn't that mean that thousands of Chinese workers would be worse off?

georgieporgie 15y ago
That's not what I'm saying at all. Those are simply two options. The option to produce in the US is followed naturally from their own claims, and is countered by more lies and rationalizations. Hippie: "Hey Apple, why don't you require that suppliers improve labor conditions in their factories?" Apple response 1) "We can't pay Chinese workers what American workers make!" Hippe: "Okay, fine, but I wasn't talking about wages. I was talking about labor conditions. Stop working people on ridiculously long shifts, doing the same thing day in, and day out, until they're maimed. Stop blacklisting people with valid complaints." Apple response 2) "We can't raise wages, that would create a local aristocracy!" Hippie: "Again, I'm not talking about wages, so long as they're livable in the region. I'm talking about labor conditions. Also, what exactly would be wrong with a local aristocracy? Management always says that a rising tide lifts all boats as it pays itself a healthy bonus, after all." Hippie: "Okay, Apple, since you refuse to pursue reasonable working conditions in China, why don't you manufacture in the US, according to US standards of pay and treatment?" Apple: "Oh, no, no, we couldn't do that! The US doesn't have the manufacturing ability. We need a fabrication facility next door to a glass facility!" Hippie: "You have $100 billion. You can build both in, say, North Carolina." Apple: "No, no, American workers don't have the work ethic that is necessary to produce Apple products. Besides, China educates the mid-level engineers that we need to manage factory floors." Hippie: "By work ethic, you mean the ability to rouse 8,000 people from corporate housing and immediately put them to work on back-to-back 16 hour shifts, all because you couldn't get your engineering spec done in a reasonable time? And wasn't I just reading about how there are a large number of unemployed, middle-aged Americans who have experience managing factories floors, who can't find work because such factories no longer exist?"