6 ms·

If the pandemic has demonstrated one thing, it is that I don't want to work in an environment where almost everyone is remote. It has become very clear that WF

by lynx23 4y ago

If the pandemic has demonstrated one thing, it is that I don't want to work in an environment where almost everyone is remote. It has become very clear that WFH workers take extra time off at random intervals during a day, and are typically hard to reach if you need to talk to them. Also, the smaller the children, the more likely it is they are subtly unavailable during work time. This is not acceptable, even though I totally understand these people like that. Some even have a 40 h job and admit openly that since they are doing WFH, they effectively have the whole day for their personal endeavors. Although in the story I am thinking about, there were no children involved. To the contrary, it is about a person 5 years away from retirement, and their boss has apparently given up wanting to legally fire them and trying to make them do meaningful work. So the solution was to push them off to WFH, and not think about the topic anymore.

dreadnip 4y ago
> This is not acceptable Why? I'm a software engineer working in an agency and I work exactly like you're describing. If I feel like going on a run, I'll mark myself as AFK and go on a run. If I feel like closing my laptop at 3 and go shopping, I'll work later in the day when I'm not busy. I still deliver on my deadlines and contribute more to the company than most colleagues. If you ping me on my phone I'll probably reply at any given time, and I put emphasis on written communication about issues I'm handling. Ideally, I've already written down all of the information you'd want to talk to me about. This "style" works really well for me.
- lynx23 4y ago
  I am not a dev. I need to coordinate with my coworkers during the day. And since we dont have documentation for every miniscule step a team mate performs, we need to actually talk to each other from time to time. I am sure as a dev, with sufficiently large work packages, WFH is just a breeze. But not in my job.
  - ZephyrBlu 4y ago
    What's your job and why can't you co-ordinate async? "remote but still sync" feels like a major failure mode of being remote to me. Being able to work and communicate async is important for productivity in a remote environment.
  - j45 4y ago
    Record async video. Someone clicking and talking through a question or process at the time that works best so a meeting isn’t needed unless there’s disagreement. It’s amazing.
em-bee 4y ago
their boss has apparently given up wanting to legally fire them and trying to make them do meaningful work so they didn't have any serious work assigned to them, and you wonder why they have the day free for themselves? they are subtly unavailable during work time. This is not acceptable when i am focusing on coding i am also unavailable. please don't expect me to be available any time you shout. i am not your personal assistant.
the_gipsy 4y ago
First off, there is a huge difference in being 100% available and not outputting work. They are not exclusive. I WFH with people with babies and kids and they absolutely exceed expectations. Second, people in office can be just as unavailable or unproductive as from home. There are a million ways to slack off or be intermittently absent. Third, it's a matter of gender equality too. If the childcare is split 50% then one simply cannot work like someone without kids, or one needs someone else to take care of the kids. If it's not split then 99% it's the women who stay at home while the men build their careers.
- lynx23 4y ago
  I expected just as much. So, gender "equality" of the spouse of my coworker is reason enough for my coworker to slack off, and me being coerced into keeping my mouth shut? No. People can demand things like that, but I am not playing that sort of game for them. Your first two points are both ireelevant to me, because "can be" doesn't help in my daily work. All that counts, in this subjective report of mine, is my experience. And I tell you, WFH is less productive when it comes to working in a team, period.
  - humanrebar 4y ago
    I think underperforming coworkers is a problem regardless of the work situation. If the worker was slacking off while in office, would that be evidence that remote work should be mandated? Or would that be an incident to be corrected by HR and management?
  - the_gipsy 4y ago
    > So, gender "equality" of the spouse of my coworker is reason enough for my coworker to slack off Put it the other way around: gender inequality of someone having a stay-at-home-wife is not reason enough for everyone else to be working the same. Having a stay-at-home-wife can't be the only way to equalize to childless workers. > All that counts, in this subjective report of mine, is my experience. My personal experience is the opposite. Office-goers perform worse, are the lesser talent left behind by those that can afford to leave for full WFH jobs, and try to compensate by putting in more office-chair-time and office politics, which just compounds to more problems for those that actually work. There you go.
sublinear 4y ago
> are typically hard to reach if you need to talk to them Why do you need them so highly available? Why can't you figure out what you need on your own by default without ruining the productivity of others? Encourage good documentation, ask fewer and more deliberate questions, etc. What matters is that employees get their work done on schedule, attend and contribute what's necessary to meetings, and don't struggle to communicate well. It was never easy to get a hold of someone in the office either and you even had to waste time walking around to find out. Nothing has really changed except a lot of good for those who prefer wfh.
flangola7 4y ago
The thing that's not acceptable is micromanaging bosses and the attitude that business is more important than family.
- lynx23 4y ago
  If family is more important then your paycheck, why dont you resign? Why should someone without a family invest more at work just because you consider work a secondary thing?
  - humanrebar 4y ago
    Because people have to pay bills and there aren't other options readily available. And I think it's OK for workers to try to change company culture over time while employed.
  - horns4lyfe 4y ago
    What a weird binary. Obviously someone’s children are more important to them than their job. Are you suggesting that’s a problem?
  - manuelabeledo 4y ago
    > If family is more important then your paycheck, why dont you resign? It is. > Why should someone without a family invest more at work just because you consider work a secondary thing? This is a weird take. Do you get mad at your coworkers when they take time off?
  - lurking_swe 4y ago
    how do you think you were born and raised into this world? did your parent(s) quit their jobs after you were born, stop earning any income, and raise you in a cardboard box on the steeet? do you expect only millionaires to have children? jesus…have some empathy. Life is more than work work work.
- lynx23 4y ago
  If you think family is more important then your job, then please just quit and dedicate yourself to what you think is more important. But dont forget that family is an optional thing, that you decided to go for. Your coworkers without a family actually dont care how you spend your spare time. But if you are using your family as an excuse at work, we start to care, and see that you are trying to enforce unfairness. Its your family, deal with it as you like, but dont take it with you to work.
horns4lyfe 4y ago
God forbid someone isn’t at your beck and call every second the day. What is the point of that story? You admit the person you used as evidence was a bad example.
4k3aa4 4y ago
> It has become very clear that WFH workers take extra time off at random intervals during a day Bob Slydell: You see, what we're actually trying to do here is, we're trying to get a feel for how people spend their day at work... so, if you would, would you walk us through a typical day, for you? Peter Gibbons: Yeah. Bob Slydell: Great. Peter Gibbons: Well, I generally come in at least fifteen minutes late, ah, I use the side door - that way Lumbergh can't see me, heh heh - and, uh, after that I just sorta space out for about an hour. Bob Porter: Da-uh? Space out? Peter Gibbons: Yeah, I just stare at my desk; but it looks like I'm working. I do that for probably another hour after lunch, too. I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work.
Der_Einzige 4y ago
[flagged]

by lynx23 4y ago

dreadnip 4y ago

> This is not acceptable Why? I'm a software engineer working in an agency and I work exactly like you're describing. If I feel like going on a run, I'll mark myself as AFK and go on a run. If I feel like closing my laptop at 3 and go shopping, I'll work later in the day when I'm not busy. I still deliver on my deadlines and contribute more to the company than most colleagues. If you ping me on my phone I'll probably reply at any given time, and I put emphasis on written communication about issues I'm handling. Ideally, I've already written down all of the information you'd want to talk to me about. This "style" works really well for me.

lynx23 4y ago
I am not a dev. I need to coordinate with my coworkers during the day. And since we dont have documentation for every miniscule step a team mate performs, we need to actually talk to each other from time to time. I am sure as a dev, with sufficiently large work packages, WFH is just a breeze. But not in my job.
- ZephyrBlu 4y ago
  What's your job and why can't you co-ordinate async? "remote but still sync" feels like a major failure mode of being remote to me. Being able to work and communicate async is important for productivity in a remote environment.
- j45 4y ago
  Record async video. Someone clicking and talking through a question or process at the time that works best so a meeting isn’t needed unless there’s disagreement. It’s amazing.

em-bee 4y ago

their boss has apparently given up wanting to legally fire them and trying to make them do meaningful work so they didn't have any serious work assigned to them, and you wonder why they have the day free for themselves? they are subtly unavailable during work time. This is not acceptable when i am focusing on coding i am also unavailable. please don't expect me to be available any time you shout. i am not your personal assistant.

the_gipsy 4y ago

First off, there is a huge difference in being 100% available and not outputting work. They are not exclusive. I WFH with people with babies and kids and they absolutely exceed expectations. Second, people in office can be just as unavailable or unproductive as from home. There are a million ways to slack off or be intermittently absent. Third, it's a matter of gender equality too. If the childcare is split 50% then one simply cannot work like someone without kids, or one needs someone else to take care of the kids. If it's not split then 99% it's the women who stay at home while the men build their careers.

lynx23 4y ago
I expected just as much. So, gender "equality" of the spouse of my coworker is reason enough for my coworker to slack off, and me being coerced into keeping my mouth shut? No. People can demand things like that, but I am not playing that sort of game for them. Your first two points are both ireelevant to me, because "can be" doesn't help in my daily work. All that counts, in this subjective report of mine, is my experience. And I tell you, WFH is less productive when it comes to working in a team, period.
- humanrebar 4y ago
  I think underperforming coworkers is a problem regardless of the work situation. If the worker was slacking off while in office, would that be evidence that remote work should be mandated? Or would that be an incident to be corrected by HR and management?
- the_gipsy 4y ago
  > So, gender "equality" of the spouse of my coworker is reason enough for my coworker to slack off Put it the other way around: gender inequality of someone having a stay-at-home-wife is not reason enough for everyone else to be working the same. Having a stay-at-home-wife can't be the only way to equalize to childless workers. > All that counts, in this subjective report of mine, is my experience. My personal experience is the opposite. Office-goers perform worse, are the lesser talent left behind by those that can afford to leave for full WFH jobs, and try to compensate by putting in more office-chair-time and office politics, which just compounds to more problems for those that actually work. There you go.

sublinear 4y ago

> are typically hard to reach if you need to talk to them Why do you need them so highly available? Why can't you figure out what you need on your own by default without ruining the productivity of others? Encourage good documentation, ask fewer and more deliberate questions, etc. What matters is that employees get their work done on schedule, attend and contribute what's necessary to meetings, and don't struggle to communicate well. It was never easy to get a hold of someone in the office either and you even had to waste time walking around to find out. Nothing has really changed except a lot of good for those who prefer wfh.

flangola7 4y ago

The thing that's not acceptable is micromanaging bosses and the attitude that business is more important than family.

lynx23 4y ago
If family is more important then your paycheck, why dont you resign? Why should someone without a family invest more at work just because you consider work a secondary thing?
- humanrebar 4y ago
  Because people have to pay bills and there aren't other options readily available. And I think it's OK for workers to try to change company culture over time while employed.
- horns4lyfe 4y ago
  What a weird binary. Obviously someone’s children are more important to them than their job. Are you suggesting that’s a problem?
- manuelabeledo 4y ago
  > If family is more important then your paycheck, why dont you resign? It is. > Why should someone without a family invest more at work just because you consider work a secondary thing? This is a weird take. Do you get mad at your coworkers when they take time off?
- lurking_swe 4y ago
  how do you think you were born and raised into this world? did your parent(s) quit their jobs after you were born, stop earning any income, and raise you in a cardboard box on the steeet? do you expect only millionaires to have children? jesus…have some empathy. Life is more than work work work.
lynx23 4y ago
If you think family is more important then your job, then please just quit and dedicate yourself to what you think is more important. But dont forget that family is an optional thing, that you decided to go for. Your coworkers without a family actually dont care how you spend your spare time. But if you are using your family as an excuse at work, we start to care, and see that you are trying to enforce unfairness. Its your family, deal with it as you like, but dont take it with you to work.

horns4lyfe 4y ago

God forbid someone isn’t at your beck and call every second the day. What is the point of that story? You admit the person you used as evidence was a bad example.

4k3aa4 4y ago

> It has become very clear that WFH workers take extra time off at random intervals during a day Bob Slydell: You see, what we're actually trying to do here is, we're trying to get a feel for how people spend their day at work... so, if you would, would you walk us through a typical day, for you? Peter Gibbons: Yeah. Bob Slydell: Great. Peter Gibbons: Well, I generally come in at least fifteen minutes late, ah, I use the side door - that way Lumbergh can't see me, heh heh - and, uh, after that I just sorta space out for about an hour. Bob Porter: Da-uh? Space out? Peter Gibbons: Yeah, I just stare at my desk; but it looks like I'm working. I do that for probably another hour after lunch, too. I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work.

Der_Einzige 4y ago

[flagged]