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The actual paper https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-05772-8#Sec2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-05772-8#Sec2 It does not appear they contro

The actual paper https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-05772-8#Sec2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-05772-8#Sec2 It does not appear they controlled for ethnicity, race or any other measure of genetic stock. Doing so is important in my view. For example, the oft-cited average US male height 5'9 or 5'10", but for white American men it's more like 5'11"

tomrod 4y ago
Why are global population differences not sufficient? Is there an a priori reason to expect a different distribution of genetic factors in cities versus rural areas that feed city migrations?
- hammock 4y ago
  Absolutely. Pick any city of your choice. New York, Los Angeles, London, Joburg, Bangalore, Hong Kong, Lima... Are the ethnic demographics of the city not substantially different from those of its rural surroundings?
  - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
    I thought that due to redlining and white flight, the answer is that yes, there are more white people as a percentage of the total in rural areas compared to cities.
    - alwayslikethis 4y ago
      White flight? More like, most immigrants don't move to rural areas to start a farm. White flight is to suburban areas, not to rural areas.
      - bobthepanda 4y ago
        I saw this play out during COVID when some people who entertained the idea of WFH in a rural area had to contend with lack of internet.
        red-iron-pine 4y ago
        Depends where you live, though it could be a big problem. I've done splicing work for several farming co-ops out west that ran fiber to the homestead. Small town of like 200 has GPON to most houses.
    - monkeycantype 4y ago
      I’m Australia/New Zealand the primary driver would be international migration for urban job/education opportunities
  - genmud 4y ago
    Absolutely, without any doubt in my mind. DC [1] and Baltimore when compared to the rural areas are significantly different ethnic demographics. This might be one of the most dramatic, but I have seen it in nearly every city I have ever visited. LA, Seattle, DC, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Miami, SF, Portland, London, Lisbon, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Munich, Vienna, Geneva and dozens others that I have traveled to have significantly different demographics in the city than their rural areas surrounding them. The only places I feel have been homogeneous with their rural areas surrounding them, have been some of nordic places like Copenhagen, Oslo, Stockholm and Tallinn. 1 - https://ggwash.org/view/6497/maps-show-racial-divides-in-greater-washington https://ggwash.org/view/6497/maps-show-racial-divides-in-gre...
  - resoluteteeth 4y ago
    > Absolutely. Pick any city of your choice. New York, Los Angeles, London, Joburg, Bangalore, Hong Kong, Lima... Are the ethnic demographics of the city not substantially different from those of its rural surroundings? Yes, but are they all ethnically skewed in the same way? If the concern is genetic factors, it doesn't really matter if cities have different ethnic demographics than rural areas in all two hundred countries as long as the rural/urban racial skew is different in the different countries. For example, in the US rural areas may tend to be whiter than urban areas, but in countries that aren't predominantly caucasian, the opposite may be true.
  - tomrod 4y ago
    Megacities, sure. But Tulsa, OK vs the surrounding non-metro counties? I'm less certain without diving into the data. The median US city size is Naperville, IL at 149,104 people.[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b...
    - burkaman 4y ago
      Still pretty different. Compare Tulsa city to neighboring counties: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/osagecountyoklahoma,rogerscountyoklahoma,okmulgeecountyoklahoma,wagonercountyoklahoma,creekcountyoklahoma,tulsacityoklahoma/PST045222 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/osagecountyokla... Naperville is a suburb of Chicago, and without looking I can confidently tell you that it's more white than Chicago, but less white than a nearby rural area. I will look though: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/chicagocityillinois,napervillecityillinois,kendallcountyillinois/PST045222 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/chicagocityilli...
      - tomrod 4y ago
        Great insight -- thanks!
    - numtel 4y ago
      That's the median city in the set of cities with population greater than 100k, not median of all cities.
    - JeremyNT 4y ago
      Anecdotally it really seems like this should be true. Cities in mostly ethnically homogeneous states tend to still have things of value that might draw people of diverse ethnic backgrounds. I'm in Nashville Tennessee and there are far more people of Asian or middle Eastern descent here in the city than there are in the surrounding rural areas, due to the universities and the job opportunities which draw people from out of state.
- randyrand 4y ago
  Of course. Cities have been transportation hubs for centuries, and have been the arrival destinations for inter-country travel for centuries. Cities are a natural hub for diversity. But if by “a priori” you mean something innate in humans or mathematical, I think you’ll be hard pressed to find that. Or what that really means in this context.
  - tomrod 4y ago
    > But if by “a priori” you mean something innate in humans or mathematical, I think you’ll be hard pressed to find that. Or what that really even means. A priori = Beforehand, or before analysis performed. Standard phrasing in research, defines reasonable hypotheses to test.
    - randyrand 4y ago
      Of course. But everyone has different knowledge of human history so it’s hard to say what counts as a priori for you versus me. For example, most americans have a-priori knowledge that rural americans are demographically whiter than urban americans, and could hypothesize global trends. If that counts as an a priori reason - I’ll take it. In summary: “A priori” is ambiguous here / not a very useful modifier afaict.
      - tomrod 4y ago
        Made sense to me when I used it. Have a good one.
fasthands9 4y ago
I also dont see any mention of parent height. Perhaps tall people are more likely to find work in rural areas and short people's skills are more likely to align with urban environments. I still wonder if there is something else going on. But feel like instead of a survey of 200 countries it would be more interesting to just focus on one country with a more homogenous genetic population and measure lots of different possibel variables
- resoluteteeth 4y ago
  > I still wonder if there is something else going on. But feel like instead of a survey of 200 countries it would be more interesting to just focus on one country with a more homogenous genetic population and measure lots of different possibel variables I think the point is that looking at 200 countries makes the possibility of confounding factors much lower
kenjackson 4y ago
They don't control for ethnicity, but they study for 200 countries, not just the US. But more importantly -- this has taken place from 1990 to 2020. Have there been big demographic shifts between rural/urban in that time?
- rippercushions 4y ago
  Yes, rural to urban migration is a huge factor across vast swathes of the world, and not just in poor countries. Many wealthy countries like Japan and South Korea are seeing the rural countryside rapidly depopulate, as the young decamp to cities in search of education and jobs.
  - totetsu 4y ago
    And tinder matches
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- hammock 4y ago
  >But more importantly -- this has taken place from 1990 to 2020. Have there been big demographic shifts between rural/urban in that time? In Western countries, yes. Country Year Urban Ethnic Makeup Rural Ethnic Makeup -------------- ----- ----------------------------- ------------------------------ United States 1990 73% White, 14% Black, 8% Hispanic | 86% White, 11% Black, 3% Hispanic 2020 57% White, 12% Black, 18% Hispanic | 84% White, 8% Black, 9% Hispanic United Kingdom 1991 90% White, 4% South Asian, 2% Black | 97% White, <1% South Asian, <1% Black 2011 75% White, 12% South Asian, 6% Black | 97% White, <1% South Asian, <1% Black South Africa 1991 14% White, 77% Black, 9% Coloured | 15% White, 68% Black, 17% Coloured 2011 14% White, 79% Black, 8% Coloured | 11% White, 77% Black, 11% Coloured India 1991 69% Hindu, 14% Muslim, 11% Other | 69% Hindu, 14% Muslim, 13% Other 2011 63% Hindu, 17% Muslim, 11% Other | 68% Hindu, 15% Muslim, 13% Other China 1990 91% Han, 2% Mongolian, 2% Hui | 89% Han, 5% Zhuang, 1% Miao 2020 92% Han, 1% Zhuang, 1% Hui | 88% Han, 6% Zhuang, 1% Miao Peru 1993 53% Mestizo, 31% Indigenous, 16% White| 73% Indigenous, 23% Mestizo, 4% White 2017 60% Mestizo, 16% Indigenous, 24% White| 74% Indigenous, 21% Mestizo, 4% White
atleastoptimal 4y ago
The average for non-Hispanic white men in the US is roughly 5'10" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_human_height_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_human_height_by_countr...
Zetice 4y ago
There is no meaningful genetic variance in height between cultures, so there’s no need to control for it. Or are you suggesting that non-genetic cultural factors could be at play here too? Possibly!
- emmelaich 4y ago
  Do you mean within a culture? And what do you mean by culture?
  - Zetice 4y ago
    Anthropologists define culture as a set of learned behaviors, beliefs, values, customs, and artifacts that are shared by members of a particular group or society.
- strken 4y ago
  Without attempting to control for it you're not going to know, right? As an example of one isolated mechanism that might make a difference, fish is probably one of the only foods nutritionists almost all agree is healthy, is known to prevent stunting of growth in children, and fish consumption is higher in some cultures than others.
  - Zetice 4y ago
    We've already more or less entirely ruled out genetics as a factor in cultural diversity, so there's no need to, again, try to control for it here.
    - strken 4y ago
      I have no idea what you're trying to say and don't think genetics as a factor in cultural diversity has anything to do with the point in question. If eating fish makes you taller, and there's a country called Hypotheticalia with a strong north/south cultural divide where North Hypotheticals eat more fish than South Hypotheticals despite being genetically identical, then controlling for culture may change your results. If whatever you wanted to say agrees with this, I agree with it; if it disagrees, I disagree with it.
meghan_rain 4y ago
Note that there are no biological differences between races, as that would be considered racist. Therefore, it was not necessary to control for that during the study.
stuaxo 4y ago
Controlling for income makes more sense.

tomrod 4y ago

Why are global population differences not sufficient? Is there an a priori reason to expect a different distribution of genetic factors in cities versus rural areas that feed city migrations?

hammock 4y ago
Absolutely. Pick any city of your choice. New York, Los Angeles, London, Joburg, Bangalore, Hong Kong, Lima... Are the ethnic demographics of the city not substantially different from those of its rural surroundings?
- TaylorAlexander 4y ago
  I thought that due to redlining and white flight, the answer is that yes, there are more white people as a percentage of the total in rural areas compared to cities.
  - alwayslikethis 4y ago
    White flight? More like, most immigrants don't move to rural areas to start a farm. White flight is to suburban areas, not to rural areas.
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      I saw this play out during COVID when some people who entertained the idea of WFH in a rural area had to contend with lack of internet.
      - red-iron-pine 4y ago
        Depends where you live, though it could be a big problem. I've done splicing work for several farming co-ops out west that ran fiber to the homestead. Small town of like 200 has GPON to most houses.
  - monkeycantype 4y ago
    I’m Australia/New Zealand the primary driver would be international migration for urban job/education opportunities
- genmud 4y ago
  Absolutely, without any doubt in my mind. DC [1] and Baltimore when compared to the rural areas are significantly different ethnic demographics. This might be one of the most dramatic, but I have seen it in nearly every city I have ever visited. LA, Seattle, DC, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Miami, SF, Portland, London, Lisbon, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Munich, Vienna, Geneva and dozens others that I have traveled to have significantly different demographics in the city than their rural areas surrounding them. The only places I feel have been homogeneous with their rural areas surrounding them, have been some of nordic places like Copenhagen, Oslo, Stockholm and Tallinn. 1 - https://ggwash.org/view/6497/maps-show-racial-divides-in-greater-washington https://ggwash.org/view/6497/maps-show-racial-divides-in-gre...
- resoluteteeth 4y ago
  > Absolutely. Pick any city of your choice. New York, Los Angeles, London, Joburg, Bangalore, Hong Kong, Lima... Are the ethnic demographics of the city not substantially different from those of its rural surroundings? Yes, but are they all ethnically skewed in the same way? If the concern is genetic factors, it doesn't really matter if cities have different ethnic demographics than rural areas in all two hundred countries as long as the rural/urban racial skew is different in the different countries. For example, in the US rural areas may tend to be whiter than urban areas, but in countries that aren't predominantly caucasian, the opposite may be true.
- tomrod 4y ago
  Megacities, sure. But Tulsa, OK vs the surrounding non-metro counties? I'm less certain without diving into the data. The median US city size is Naperville, IL at 149,104 people.[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b...
  - burkaman 4y ago
    Still pretty different. Compare Tulsa city to neighboring counties: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/osagecountyoklahoma,rogerscountyoklahoma,okmulgeecountyoklahoma,wagonercountyoklahoma,creekcountyoklahoma,tulsacityoklahoma/PST045222 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/osagecountyokla... Naperville is a suburb of Chicago, and without looking I can confidently tell you that it's more white than Chicago, but less white than a nearby rural area. I will look though: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/chicagocityillinois,napervillecityillinois,kendallcountyillinois/PST045222 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/chicagocityilli...
    - tomrod 4y ago
      Great insight -- thanks!
  - numtel 4y ago
    That's the median city in the set of cities with population greater than 100k, not median of all cities.
  - JeremyNT 4y ago
    Anecdotally it really seems like this should be true. Cities in mostly ethnically homogeneous states tend to still have things of value that might draw people of diverse ethnic backgrounds. I'm in Nashville Tennessee and there are far more people of Asian or middle Eastern descent here in the city than there are in the surrounding rural areas, due to the universities and the job opportunities which draw people from out of state.
randyrand 4y ago
Of course. Cities have been transportation hubs for centuries, and have been the arrival destinations for inter-country travel for centuries. Cities are a natural hub for diversity. But if by “a priori” you mean something innate in humans or mathematical, I think you’ll be hard pressed to find that. Or what that really means in this context.
- tomrod 4y ago
  > But if by “a priori” you mean something innate in humans or mathematical, I think you’ll be hard pressed to find that. Or what that really even means. A priori = Beforehand, or before analysis performed. Standard phrasing in research, defines reasonable hypotheses to test.
  - randyrand 4y ago
    Of course. But everyone has different knowledge of human history so it’s hard to say what counts as a priori for you versus me. For example, most americans have a-priori knowledge that rural americans are demographically whiter than urban americans, and could hypothesize global trends. If that counts as an a priori reason - I’ll take it. In summary: “A priori” is ambiguous here / not a very useful modifier afaict.
    - tomrod 4y ago
      Made sense to me when I used it. Have a good one.

fasthands9 4y ago

I also dont see any mention of parent height. Perhaps tall people are more likely to find work in rural areas and short people's skills are more likely to align with urban environments. I still wonder if there is something else going on. But feel like instead of a survey of 200 countries it would be more interesting to just focus on one country with a more homogenous genetic population and measure lots of different possibel variables

resoluteteeth 4y ago
> I still wonder if there is something else going on. But feel like instead of a survey of 200 countries it would be more interesting to just focus on one country with a more homogenous genetic population and measure lots of different possibel variables I think the point is that looking at 200 countries makes the possibility of confounding factors much lower

kenjackson 4y ago

They don't control for ethnicity, but they study for 200 countries, not just the US. But more importantly -- this has taken place from 1990 to 2020. Have there been big demographic shifts between rural/urban in that time?

rippercushions 4y ago
Yes, rural to urban migration is a huge factor across vast swathes of the world, and not just in poor countries. Many wealthy countries like Japan and South Korea are seeing the rural countryside rapidly depopulate, as the young decamp to cities in search of education and jobs.
- totetsu 4y ago
  And tinder matches
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
hammock 4y ago
>But more importantly -- this has taken place from 1990 to 2020. Have there been big demographic shifts between rural/urban in that time? In Western countries, yes. Country Year Urban Ethnic Makeup Rural Ethnic Makeup -------------- ----- ----------------------------- ------------------------------ United States 1990 73% White, 14% Black, 8% Hispanic | 86% White, 11% Black, 3% Hispanic 2020 57% White, 12% Black, 18% Hispanic | 84% White, 8% Black, 9% Hispanic United Kingdom 1991 90% White, 4% South Asian, 2% Black | 97% White, <1% South Asian, <1% Black 2011 75% White, 12% South Asian, 6% Black | 97% White, <1% South Asian, <1% Black South Africa 1991 14% White, 77% Black, 9% Coloured | 15% White, 68% Black, 17% Coloured 2011 14% White, 79% Black, 8% Coloured | 11% White, 77% Black, 11% Coloured India 1991 69% Hindu, 14% Muslim, 11% Other | 69% Hindu, 14% Muslim, 13% Other 2011 63% Hindu, 17% Muslim, 11% Other | 68% Hindu, 15% Muslim, 13% Other China 1990 91% Han, 2% Mongolian, 2% Hui | 89% Han, 5% Zhuang, 1% Miao 2020 92% Han, 1% Zhuang, 1% Hui | 88% Han, 6% Zhuang, 1% Miao Peru 1993 53% Mestizo, 31% Indigenous, 16% White| 73% Indigenous, 23% Mestizo, 4% White 2017 60% Mestizo, 16% Indigenous, 24% White| 74% Indigenous, 21% Mestizo, 4% White

atleastoptimal 4y ago

The average for non-Hispanic white men in the US is roughly 5'10" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_human_height_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_human_height_by_countr...

Zetice 4y ago

There is no meaningful genetic variance in height between cultures, so there’s no need to control for it. Or are you suggesting that non-genetic cultural factors could be at play here too? Possibly!

emmelaich 4y ago
Do you mean within a culture? And what do you mean by culture?
- Zetice 4y ago
  Anthropologists define culture as a set of learned behaviors, beliefs, values, customs, and artifacts that are shared by members of a particular group or society.
strken 4y ago
Without attempting to control for it you're not going to know, right? As an example of one isolated mechanism that might make a difference, fish is probably one of the only foods nutritionists almost all agree is healthy, is known to prevent stunting of growth in children, and fish consumption is higher in some cultures than others.
- Zetice 4y ago
  We've already more or less entirely ruled out genetics as a factor in cultural diversity, so there's no need to, again, try to control for it here.
  - strken 4y ago
    I have no idea what you're trying to say and don't think genetics as a factor in cultural diversity has anything to do with the point in question. If eating fish makes you taller, and there's a country called Hypotheticalia with a strong north/south cultural divide where North Hypotheticals eat more fish than South Hypotheticals despite being genetically identical, then controlling for culture may change your results. If whatever you wanted to say agrees with this, I agree with it; if it disagrees, I disagree with it.

meghan_rain 4y ago

Note that there are no biological differences between races, as that would be considered racist. Therefore, it was not necessary to control for that during the study.

stuaxo 4y ago

Controlling for income makes more sense.