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Notably, though, the charts start showing massive growth in depression around 2012, which was long before Dobbs. And there are some trends in the opposite dire

by YellOh 4y ago

Notably, though, the charts start showing massive growth in depression around 2012, which was long before Dobbs. And there are some trends in the opposite direction - iirc hormonal birth control used to be much harder to get (telehealth has made the prescription requirement much less onerous), and anecdotally nowadays it seems a lot easier to get info on sterilization or methods for intentionally changing menstruation (ex. skipping the placebo week). I'm not saying Dobbs doesn't matter, only that I both 1) doubt it's a central driver of the trend, and 2) think [outside the world of news/social media] most women can still expect more rights & a higher quality of care in most US locations than they could a decade or two ago.

dragonwriter 4y ago
> I’m not saying Dobbs doesn’t matter, only that I both 1) doubt it’s a central driver of the trend Yeah, I’m not saying it (or reproductive rights & health care more generally) is the central driver of the trend, I’m saying its one of the key reasons why if someone asked me, today, what group in American society would be most depressed, my intuitive response would be “white liberal teen girls” (particularly, its a key reason why “female, white, and liberal” are parts of that) – why that element that was called out as surprising upthread would not be. Though Dobbs didn’t just appear ex nihilo without many years of clear lead up to it that reflected a change in the direction of society, so I wouldn’t dismiss the issue being deeply connected to an important part of the broader, earlier trend.
- YellOh 4y ago
  Interesting. I would much rather be a (white liberal) teen girl today than in ~2012, but I can see how insofar as Dobbs is only a manifestation of existing trends, I might be in the minority. It's just hard to wrap my head around what this trend would be, or why teens started picking up on it in 2012. I am not conscious of any major modern debates around women's rights except abortion/birth control, and I see no particular link between the causes of Dobbs and that generic time period. Also, possibly as proof that I'm not a great commenter on the issue, I thought only ~8% of women had abortions, but in looking it up while writing this comment apparently it's more like 25% (so abortion & related issues affect way more women/girls than I expected).
  - disgruntledphd2 4y ago
    Note that miscarriages are counted as spontaneous abortions in most medical statistics, which was super confusing to me when I first saw similar data.
    - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
      Miscarriages are abortions. Often times if the miscarriage happens late enough, a doctor must intervene to assist in the removal of the dead fetus, which is the same medical procedure as one may remove a viable one.
      - disgruntledphd2 4y ago
        Agreed, but they don't fit the common perception of what abortions are, hence my clarification.
      - KMag 4y ago
        No, "abortion" is not a medical procedure. There are several medical procedures used for abortion, some of which have uses other than abortion. The medical procedure you're referring to is dilation and curettage (a.k.a D&C / DnC). The common term "abortion" is imprecise, and refers to several medical procedures, and D&C has multiple uses other than pregnancy termination. In the case of spontaneous abortion (commonly called "miscarriage"), even in early pregnancy if the fetal remains are allowed to naturally be expelled, afterward the ob/gyn will often need to inspect the uterus and perhaps remove some remaining tissue. So, rather than waiting for the fetus to naturally be expelled following spontaneous abortion and going through the pain and trauma of seeing the blood and tissue being passed at home, the ob/gyn will often advise a D&C rather than waiting for the body to naturally resolve the lost pregnancy. Unfortunately, my wife has had 3 first trimester miscarriages under 2 ob/gyns, both of which advised D&C rather than waiting for the fetal remains to pass. Also, her ob/gyn performed a 4th D&C to make sure the surface of the uterus is free of tissue that might interfere with pregnancy. This 4th D&C seems to have worked (along with a ton of medications), as we're expecting identical twins in September. Every D&C weakens the cervix, so it's a delicate balancing act. In any case, D&C has several uses and shouldn't be conflated with "abortion". In our case, my wife's 4th D&C was a fertility treatment, and the first 3 were to resolve lost pregnancies.

by YellOh 4y ago

dragonwriter 4y ago

> I’m not saying Dobbs doesn’t matter, only that I both 1) doubt it’s a central driver of the trend Yeah, I’m not saying it (or reproductive rights & health care more generally) is the central driver of the trend, I’m saying its one of the key reasons why if someone asked me, today, what group in American society would be most depressed, my intuitive response would be “white liberal teen girls” (particularly, its a key reason why “female, white, and liberal” are parts of that) – why that element that was called out as surprising upthread would not be. Though Dobbs didn’t just appear ex nihilo without many years of clear lead up to it that reflected a change in the direction of society, so I wouldn’t dismiss the issue being deeply connected to an important part of the broader, earlier trend.

YellOh 4y ago
Interesting. I would much rather be a (white liberal) teen girl today than in ~2012, but I can see how insofar as Dobbs is only a manifestation of existing trends, I might be in the minority. It's just hard to wrap my head around what this trend would be, or why teens started picking up on it in 2012. I am not conscious of any major modern debates around women's rights except abortion/birth control, and I see no particular link between the causes of Dobbs and that generic time period. Also, possibly as proof that I'm not a great commenter on the issue, I thought only ~8% of women had abortions, but in looking it up while writing this comment apparently it's more like 25% (so abortion & related issues affect way more women/girls than I expected).
- disgruntledphd2 4y ago
  Note that miscarriages are counted as spontaneous abortions in most medical statistics, which was super confusing to me when I first saw similar data.
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    Miscarriages are abortions. Often times if the miscarriage happens late enough, a doctor must intervene to assist in the removal of the dead fetus, which is the same medical procedure as one may remove a viable one.
    - disgruntledphd2 4y ago
      Agreed, but they don't fit the common perception of what abortions are, hence my clarification.
    - KMag 4y ago
      No, "abortion" is not a medical procedure. There are several medical procedures used for abortion, some of which have uses other than abortion. The medical procedure you're referring to is dilation and curettage (a.k.a D&C / DnC). The common term "abortion" is imprecise, and refers to several medical procedures, and D&C has multiple uses other than pregnancy termination. In the case of spontaneous abortion (commonly called "miscarriage"), even in early pregnancy if the fetal remains are allowed to naturally be expelled, afterward the ob/gyn will often need to inspect the uterus and perhaps remove some remaining tissue. So, rather than waiting for the fetus to naturally be expelled following spontaneous abortion and going through the pain and trauma of seeing the blood and tissue being passed at home, the ob/gyn will often advise a D&C rather than waiting for the body to naturally resolve the lost pregnancy. Unfortunately, my wife has had 3 first trimester miscarriages under 2 ob/gyns, both of which advised D&C rather than waiting for the fetal remains to pass. Also, her ob/gyn performed a 4th D&C to make sure the surface of the uterus is free of tissue that might interfere with pregnancy. This 4th D&C seems to have worked (along with a ton of medications), as we're expecting identical twins in September. Every D&C weakens the cervix, so it's a delicate balancing act. In any case, D&C has several uses and shouldn't be conflated with "abortion". In our case, my wife's 4th D&C was a fertility treatment, and the first 3 were to resolve lost pregnancies.