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Can you expand on your thoughts here? This is not a group whose lives I generally expect to be getting worse (in day-to-day life, barring social media effects).

by YellOh 4y ago

travisjungroth 4y ago
Huge expectations around women “having it all” clashing into economic uncertainty and the revocation of rights.
- YellOh 4y ago
  I'm not trying to be annoying, but I genuinely don't understand what you mean by huge expectations of "having it all" for women (at least insofar as it relates to any trend starting ~2012, when the large growth in depression and self-harm among teen girls seems to have started). The only "revocation of rights" I can think of would be Dobbs - which also does not fit the trend (see my response to the other comment). If (white liberal) teen girls are supposed to actually see their real lives getting worse, I still don't see any reason for this to have become a problem in the early 2010s.
  - travisjungroth 4y ago
    It does fit the trend. These issues are stacking. You can fool yourself into dismissing it if you split it into pieces. In 2012 you can write it off as fear mongering the media. In 2018 you can write it off as “how does this affect your day to day life?”. In 2022 you can say that Dobbs “doesn’t fit the trend” since it started in 2012. I’m not saying this is the whole story, but it’s possibly part. “Having it all” is a blessing and curse. The choice to do more, the burden to do more. Now you need a career, family, insta following. And it’s quite likely you’re going to have a hard time finding that perfect husband since men 18-30 as a demographic are doing horribly. What would normally be the backbone of a society is just not functioning well right now.
    - YellOh 4y ago
      As far as "having it all" -- female employment has basically not changed since 1990[0], and given the decline in the US birth rate, expectations of motherhood have probably decreased as well. I could see "having it all" increasing stress as, for example, more women were being introduced into the work force, but that seems entirely uncorrelated to the 2010s. Insta following could be a new pressure and I agree it would fit the timeline, but that'd be a social media effect and not a decrease in real-life quality of living for white liberal girls. [0] https://genderdata.worldbank.org/indicators/sl-tlf-acti-zs/?geos=USA&view=trend https://genderdata.worldbank.org/indicators/sl-tlf-acti-zs/?...
      - travisjungroth 4y ago
        When it comes to emotional well being, “real life” is what’s in your head. If people are experiencing unattainable pressures and that’s causing them stress, it’s real. I guess you could make a distinction for dreams, hallucinations, etc. But social media isn’t that. It’s actually dangerous to think it’s “too pretend”. My bank account is just squiggles on the screen, but I can somehow buy stuff. Same thing that online relationships can have physical outcomes, even if just by turning it into cash first.
  - naasking 4y ago
    > I genuinely don't understand what you mean by huge expectations of "having it all" for women I think the OP meant the whole "lean in" movement. I'm not sure why that would affect teen girls though. Social media and decreased socialization seem like much more plausible factors.
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    > The only "revocation of rights" I can think of would be Dobbs - which also does not fit the trend (see my response to the other comment). Dobbs didn't just happen. It took decades to take those rights away from women, and there was incremental (anti)progress along the way. In those decades, a massive political project was created specifically to message that women who get abortions (a lifesaving medical procedure) are murderers, and they should be accordingly punished (life in jail). The result of this political campaign is that women in America have the worst medical outcomes in the developed world, and in some cases it's worse than the developing world. Infant mortality is on the rise, giving birth can put you into debt tens of thousands of dollars, and if there are complications you now have to be literally on your last thread of life before doctors will feel comfortable trying to save you. So I guess you can see why women in America might feel under threat. There is one political party in America who has been telling women for decades that their goal is to use their power and influence to turn the clock back on women in America.
    - Tiktaalik 4y ago
      Even beyond Women in the USA, amongst my friends in Canada, where to me at least the status quo on abortion seems quite safe, they very clearly feel extremely on edge about it. Existing in the state of being where you're constantly feeling under pressure and attack that your rights may be taken away at any moment, I dunno, maybe that's stressful! If I can sense this tension from my Canadian women friends who are stressed just being adjacent to USA news, I'm not at all surprised that American women would be feeling even more stressed and depressed about the situation.
notch898a 4y ago
Social rank is zero-sum. Better positioning for previously unfavored group/races is the right thing but lowers relative social rank of those above.
- YellOh 4y ago
  I feel like this could be a reasonable explanation for the race piece, but I'm unsure how it connects to the female & liberal pieces. I'm not sure being a conservative male has gained a lot of social status in the past decade, though I suppose it's definitely possible.
dragonwriter 4y ago
One key element (though not the only one) is Dobbs v. Jackson, subsequent legislation encouraged by it, and the highly visible effects that this has had on reproductive healthcare even where no actual elective abortion is involved. In terms of cultural expectations of progress and very visceral potential personal impact and perceived position in society, this is a radical reverse for that group (on the second point probably less than for non-whites, but the first and third points probably bite white liberals harder.)
- YellOh 4y ago
  Notably, though, the charts start showing massive growth in depression around 2012, which was long before Dobbs. And there are some trends in the opposite direction - iirc hormonal birth control used to be much harder to get (telehealth has made the prescription requirement much less onerous), and anecdotally nowadays it seems a lot easier to get info on sterilization or methods for intentionally changing menstruation (ex. skipping the placebo week). I'm not saying Dobbs doesn't matter, only that I both 1) doubt it's a central driver of the trend, and 2) think [outside the world of news/social media] most women can still expect more rights & a higher quality of care in most US locations than they could a decade or two ago.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > I’m not saying Dobbs doesn’t matter, only that I both 1) doubt it’s a central driver of the trend Yeah, I’m not saying it (or reproductive rights & health care more generally) is the central driver of the trend, I’m saying its one of the key reasons why if someone asked me, today, what group in American society would be most depressed, my intuitive response would be “white liberal teen girls” (particularly, its a key reason why “female, white, and liberal” are parts of that) – why that element that was called out as surprising upthread would not be. Though Dobbs didn’t just appear ex nihilo without many years of clear lead up to it that reflected a change in the direction of society, so I wouldn’t dismiss the issue being deeply connected to an important part of the broader, earlier trend.
    - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
muffinman26 4y ago
Not sure if this aligns with what the GP was trying to say, but this is also one of the groups I would expect to be the most depressed, although I would expect white, middle-aged, middle-classed women to be an even larger demographic. Chemicals/genetics have a lot to do with depression, but for other cases I think depression comes from a feeling of uselessness/lack of purpose. White liberal women have a lot of incompatible expectations placed on them. If they stay home to raise children, they're labeled as lazy, "betraying the feminist cause", etc. for not participating in the workforce. If they work, they're labeled as neglectful of their children (if they have them) or told they're going to regret their choices. They have to outpace their male coworkers to be respected at work, but their career is also seen as a "nice to have". So the standards for women are impossible, but simultaneously so low that achieving them doesn't earn respect. In a strange way, the group's relative privilege is a contributing factor to depression. If you're a member of a group that is violently oppressed, the act of protest and standing up to oppressors provides a sense of purpose. Because white women's position isn't "that bad," though, attempts to improve their situation are considered too small to celebrate at best and entitled whining at worse. Further, there's been a movement, particularly in liberal spaces over the past few years, to lift up the voices of the most oppressed. So liberal white women have pressure to just shut up and swallow their concerns from both sides of the political aisle. None of this is to advocate drowning out the concerns of other groups to prioritize the mental health of white women, only a recognition that a seemingly easier life doesn't necessarily mean a happier one. In fact, an easier life can be more depressing.
- YellOh 4y ago
  I could see this being a major factor. It reminds me of wealthy white women's "hysteria" / other mental health issues of the past (ex. https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2013/01/16/eternal-hypochondria-of-the-expanding-mind/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2013/01/16/eternal-hypochondria-o...). Being neither particularly oppressed nor in the most priveleged group is an interesting position, and I could see this being an important mental health factor. I don't have a strong enough sociological background to connect any shift in social position for white women to the correct time frame in the original post, but it's certainly possible.

Can you expand on your thoughts here? This is not a group whose lives I generally expect to be getting worse (in day-to-day life, barring social media effects).

by YellOh 4y ago

Can you expand on your thoughts here? This is not a group whose lives I generally expect to be getting worse (in day-to-day life, barring social media effects).

travisjungroth 4y ago

Huge expectations around women “having it all” clashing into economic uncertainty and the revocation of rights.

YellOh 4y ago
I'm not trying to be annoying, but I genuinely don't understand what you mean by huge expectations of "having it all" for women (at least insofar as it relates to any trend starting ~2012, when the large growth in depression and self-harm among teen girls seems to have started). The only "revocation of rights" I can think of would be Dobbs - which also does not fit the trend (see my response to the other comment). If (white liberal) teen girls are supposed to actually see their real lives getting worse, I still don't see any reason for this to have become a problem in the early 2010s.
- travisjungroth 4y ago
  It does fit the trend. These issues are stacking. You can fool yourself into dismissing it if you split it into pieces. In 2012 you can write it off as fear mongering the media. In 2018 you can write it off as “how does this affect your day to day life?”. In 2022 you can say that Dobbs “doesn’t fit the trend” since it started in 2012. I’m not saying this is the whole story, but it’s possibly part. “Having it all” is a blessing and curse. The choice to do more, the burden to do more. Now you need a career, family, insta following. And it’s quite likely you’re going to have a hard time finding that perfect husband since men 18-30 as a demographic are doing horribly. What would normally be the backbone of a society is just not functioning well right now.
  - YellOh 4y ago
    As far as "having it all" -- female employment has basically not changed since 1990[0], and given the decline in the US birth rate, expectations of motherhood have probably decreased as well. I could see "having it all" increasing stress as, for example, more women were being introduced into the work force, but that seems entirely uncorrelated to the 2010s. Insta following could be a new pressure and I agree it would fit the timeline, but that'd be a social media effect and not a decrease in real-life quality of living for white liberal girls. [0] https://genderdata.worldbank.org/indicators/sl-tlf-acti-zs/?geos=USA&view=trend https://genderdata.worldbank.org/indicators/sl-tlf-acti-zs/?...
    - travisjungroth 4y ago
      When it comes to emotional well being, “real life” is what’s in your head. If people are experiencing unattainable pressures and that’s causing them stress, it’s real. I guess you could make a distinction for dreams, hallucinations, etc. But social media isn’t that. It’s actually dangerous to think it’s “too pretend”. My bank account is just squiggles on the screen, but I can somehow buy stuff. Same thing that online relationships can have physical outcomes, even if just by turning it into cash first.
- naasking 4y ago
  > I genuinely don't understand what you mean by huge expectations of "having it all" for women I think the OP meant the whole "lean in" movement. I'm not sure why that would affect teen girls though. Social media and decreased socialization seem like much more plausible factors.
- ModernMech 4y ago
  > The only "revocation of rights" I can think of would be Dobbs - which also does not fit the trend (see my response to the other comment). Dobbs didn't just happen. It took decades to take those rights away from women, and there was incremental (anti)progress along the way. In those decades, a massive political project was created specifically to message that women who get abortions (a lifesaving medical procedure) are murderers, and they should be accordingly punished (life in jail). The result of this political campaign is that women in America have the worst medical outcomes in the developed world, and in some cases it's worse than the developing world. Infant mortality is on the rise, giving birth can put you into debt tens of thousands of dollars, and if there are complications you now have to be literally on your last thread of life before doctors will feel comfortable trying to save you. So I guess you can see why women in America might feel under threat. There is one political party in America who has been telling women for decades that their goal is to use their power and influence to turn the clock back on women in America.
  - Tiktaalik 4y ago
    Even beyond Women in the USA, amongst my friends in Canada, where to me at least the status quo on abortion seems quite safe, they very clearly feel extremely on edge about it. Existing in the state of being where you're constantly feeling under pressure and attack that your rights may be taken away at any moment, I dunno, maybe that's stressful! If I can sense this tension from my Canadian women friends who are stressed just being adjacent to USA news, I'm not at all surprised that American women would be feeling even more stressed and depressed about the situation.

notch898a 4y ago

Social rank is zero-sum. Better positioning for previously unfavored group/races is the right thing but lowers relative social rank of those above.

YellOh 4y ago
I feel like this could be a reasonable explanation for the race piece, but I'm unsure how it connects to the female & liberal pieces. I'm not sure being a conservative male has gained a lot of social status in the past decade, though I suppose it's definitely possible.

dragonwriter 4y ago

One key element (though not the only one) is Dobbs v. Jackson, subsequent legislation encouraged by it, and the highly visible effects that this has had on reproductive healthcare even where no actual elective abortion is involved. In terms of cultural expectations of progress and very visceral potential personal impact and perceived position in society, this is a radical reverse for that group (on the second point probably less than for non-whites, but the first and third points probably bite white liberals harder.)

YellOh 4y ago
Notably, though, the charts start showing massive growth in depression around 2012, which was long before Dobbs. And there are some trends in the opposite direction - iirc hormonal birth control used to be much harder to get (telehealth has made the prescription requirement much less onerous), and anecdotally nowadays it seems a lot easier to get info on sterilization or methods for intentionally changing menstruation (ex. skipping the placebo week). I'm not saying Dobbs doesn't matter, only that I both 1) doubt it's a central driver of the trend, and 2) think [outside the world of news/social media] most women can still expect more rights & a higher quality of care in most US locations than they could a decade or two ago.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > I’m not saying Dobbs doesn’t matter, only that I both 1) doubt it’s a central driver of the trend Yeah, I’m not saying it (or reproductive rights & health care more generally) is the central driver of the trend, I’m saying its one of the key reasons why if someone asked me, today, what group in American society would be most depressed, my intuitive response would be “white liberal teen girls” (particularly, its a key reason why “female, white, and liberal” are parts of that) – why that element that was called out as surprising upthread would not be. Though Dobbs didn’t just appear ex nihilo without many years of clear lead up to it that reflected a change in the direction of society, so I wouldn’t dismiss the issue being deeply connected to an important part of the broader, earlier trend.
  - 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

muffinman26 4y ago

Not sure if this aligns with what the GP was trying to say, but this is also one of the groups I would expect to be the most depressed, although I would expect white, middle-aged, middle-classed women to be an even larger demographic. Chemicals/genetics have a lot to do with depression, but for other cases I think depression comes from a feeling of uselessness/lack of purpose. White liberal women have a lot of incompatible expectations placed on them. If they stay home to raise children, they're labeled as lazy, "betraying the feminist cause", etc. for not participating in the workforce. If they work, they're labeled as neglectful of their children (if they have them) or told they're going to regret their choices. They have to outpace their male coworkers to be respected at work, but their career is also seen as a "nice to have". So the standards for women are impossible, but simultaneously so low that achieving them doesn't earn respect. In a strange way, the group's relative privilege is a contributing factor to depression. If you're a member of a group that is violently oppressed, the act of protest and standing up to oppressors provides a sense of purpose. Because white women's position isn't "that bad," though, attempts to improve their situation are considered too small to celebrate at best and entitled whining at worse. Further, there's been a movement, particularly in liberal spaces over the past few years, to lift up the voices of the most oppressed. So liberal white women have pressure to just shut up and swallow their concerns from both sides of the political aisle. None of this is to advocate drowning out the concerns of other groups to prioritize the mental health of white women, only a recognition that a seemingly easier life doesn't necessarily mean a happier one. In fact, an easier life can be more depressing.

YellOh 4y ago
I could see this being a major factor. It reminds me of wealthy white women's "hysteria" / other mental health issues of the past (ex. https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2013/01/16/eternal-hypochondria-of-the-expanding-mind/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2013/01/16/eternal-hypochondria-o...). Being neither particularly oppressed nor in the most priveleged group is an interesting position, and I could see this being an important mental health factor. I don't have a strong enough sociological background to connect any shift in social position for white women to the correct time frame in the original post, but it's certainly possible.