7 ms·

Carl Braun on communicating like a grown-up (2016)

239 points by rzk 4y ago

TehShrike 4y ago
Anyone have a lead on a digital version of "Presentation For Engineers And Industrialists"? I haven't had any luck so far.
- haunter 4y ago
  Libgen
  - yamrzou 4y ago
    It's surprising that the Libgen book has "Digitized by Google". I wonder how users got it. Can Google Books be scraped in some way?
    - precompute 4y ago
      It must have been on Archive.org at some point.
      - lstamour 4y ago
        Or https://www.hathitrust.org/digital_library https://www.hathitrust.org/digital_library though it usually has limited access, which is unfortunate… One free method of access is a Library of Congress reader card, fyi.
        yamrzou 4y ago
        It is the same, indeed. Thanks!
- rramadass 4y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35367702 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35367702
funnym0nk3y 4y ago
I would like the work environment to be like that. But honestly I think all those things are just one half of the story. He favours a quieter approach, which I could image lead to being overseen.
- precompute 4y ago
  They are rules for a more civilized age. I'm sure they weren't allowed to play music on the radio or be interrupted by a phone while working, either (phones did not exist, I know). The managers probably didn't doomscroll on their phones. You couldn't backstab someone in secret. Everyone knew who the other guys in the office talked to. You had jobs that, if you stayed long enough, paid you a pension. You left your family alone, trusted the neighbourhood much more and it's likely many of your colleagues lived near you. Your corporation probably had to deliver results, couldn't bs its way out. With a new axis for communication (phones with constant internet access) all these rules have been discarded forever.
  - p1necone 4y ago
    I think you're looking through rose tinted glasses about the backstabbing and knowing who people talked to stuff. I suspect office politics in a form somewhat similar to today have existed since offices were invented.
samgtx 4y ago
Oh HN is going to love this. > A somewhat more subtle form of negation, is refinement of measurement. One man says that a tank weights ninety tons. And for that particular discussion, accuracy is of no consequence. Yet someone’s ego speaks up and says, Ninety-two tons. Maybe he’s right at that. But he’s wrong just the same. […] This is a favorite husband-and-wife game. Let’s be on guard against it. > The worst trick our ego can play on us, is to demand that we know everything. Let’s discipline ourselves until it’s easy to say, I don’t know. And let’s keep out of discussions when they’re on subjects outside of our recognized sphere. Our lack of real knowledge and experience is bound to display itself, and bring resentment from those who are really qualified to speak. Let’s slap our ego down whenever it starts laying claim to knowledge that’s too various. > If we want our opinions or beliefs to be accepted, the worst thing that we can do is to press too hard for them, or to make a personal issue of them. Better not crowd for acceptance, but rather invite it. Better tender our advice with a softening It seems to me. Or an It appears. Or a Perhaps. Or with some similar concession to the ideas of our listener. True, there are times when we must speak as authorities in no uncertain terms. Even then, reasonable humility is seldom amiss. > With our eye on our brother’s ego, we’ll see that concession is the very cornerstone of good human relations. We cannot reach human agreements without mutual concession. The self-respect that every man feels impelled to maintain, demands that he appear at least partly right. Therefore, let’s not ever try to prove anyone wholly wrong. Let’s find something herein we can feel that he’s right. Then let’s say so. We simply must not build up our own ego at any unnecessary expense of our brother’s ego. Let’s keep an eye on concession.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- drc500free 4y ago
  > The worst trick our ego can play on us, is to demand that we know everything. Let’s discipline ourselves until it’s easy to say, I don’t know. And let’s keep out of discussions when they’re on subjects outside of our recognized sphere. Our lack of real knowledge and experience is bound to display itself, and bring resentment from those who are really qualified to speak. Let’s slap our ego down whenever it starts laying claim to knowledge that’s too various. Growing up, all my self worth was tied to knowing everything. Several years ago I decided to work on that by publicly admitting to not knowing something every day for a month. It turned out to be one of the best personal growth exercises I've done and led to a lot of professional success. It's actually quite emotionally freeing. It also turns out that many of the people whose feathers get ruffled if they think their spot in the intellectual pecking order is being threatened will bend over backwards to help you if approached as a mentor. They don't think you're an idiot for asking, they generally love helping (assuming you are actually competent and not asking about basic shit every day).
Animats 4y ago
See the military five-paragraph order format.[1] It's boring, but useful. The military requires that orders show "commander's intent". This matters when circumstances change and some subordinate has to adapt the plan. "The enemy gets a vote." Officers and noncoms are then expected to change plans to achieve the commander's intent by other means. It's not about blind obedience. USMC doctrine: Mission tactics are just as the name implies: the tactic of assigning a subordinate mission without specifying how the mission must be accomplished. We leave the manner of accomplishing the mission to the subordinate, thereby allowing him the freedom and establishing the duty to take whatever steps he deems necessary based on the situation. The senior prescribes the method of execution only to the degree that is essential for coordination. It is this freedom for initiative that permits the high tempo of operations that we desire. Uninhibited by restrictions from above, the subordinate can adapt his actions to the changing situation. He informs his commander what he has done, but he does not wait for permission. It is obvious that we cannot allow decentralized initiative with- out some means of providing unity, or focus, to the various efforts. To do so would be to dissipate our strength. We seek unity, not through imposed control, but through harmonious initiative and lateral coordination. We achieve this harmonious initiative in large part through the use of the commander’s intent. There are two parts to a mission: the task to be accomplished and the reason, or intent. The task describes the action to be taken while the intent describes the desired result of the action. Of the two, the intent is predominant. While a situation may change, making the task obsolete, the intent is more permanent and continues to guide our actions. Under- standing our commander’s intent allows us to exercise initiative in harmony with the commander’s desires.[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_paragraph_order https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_paragraph_order [2] https://theusmarines.com/wp-content/uploads/docs/FMFM_1-1.pdf https://theusmarines.com/wp-content/uploads/docs/FMFM_1-1.pd...
- p1necone 4y ago
  "The enemy gets a vote." is an amazingly succinct way of putting this.
- ryandrake 4y ago
  Great comment! If only civilian jobs offered that level of trust to subordinates (so-called Individual Contributors). I've had a number of jobs where they supposedly hired me for my smarts, good judgment, resourcefulness and so on, and then proceeded to dictate to the pixel what my output must be. I had a manager specify the font and text size that engineering status reports (that were likely not even read) must be in. There is so much command-and-control in business that it's wild to learn that the military might be more flexible in some ways.
fwlr 4y ago
“ If then we speak up for some better job that’s open, let’s not till our talk with such words as hoping, thanking, eagerly, favor. If we are really worthy of the job, the Company will benefit by giving it to us every bit as much as we will profit by getting it.” Good advice for job applications. “I’m grateful for this opportunity” is common-place but so much less appealing than “I’m confident we’re going to get great results”.
DoreenMichele 4y ago
Assume good motives (often called assume good faith on HN) is an excellent standard to follow with one proviso: It can be taken too far. If you don't know their motives, assume good motives or good faith. But if they explicitly tell you they have hostile motives or the preponderance of the evidence suggests such, continuing to assume good faith amounts to cutting your own throat.
- noncoml 4y ago
  Even if they have good motives, it’s sometimes difficult. You cannot keep compensating for other people’s deficiencies. You are not Atlas to be able to bear the weight of the whole world.
  - DoreenMichele 4y ago
    "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Some people would like to see themselves as good people with good intentions but all too often their actions are actively counterproductive, a la The Shirky Principle that organizations tend to keep alive the problem they were created to address. Some people just have broken mental models and then fail to update them when their efforts consistently prove "this does not actually work." We all make mistakes, but if you keep making the same mistake without any improvement, at some point others should stop making excuses for you.
    - hakre 4y ago
      Yes, intentions =/= faith, the article has that, too, even including ones' own ego: Put Error to Work > But let’s never, never, cover up error with the misguided thought that we must protect someone — either our brother, or our department, or our own pet ego. The recognition of error and its examination, if openly talked of, is a sure way to avoid its being repeated, either by the same man or by others. Everyone errs at one time or another. The Company pays for it. Okay. But the Company should not have to pay twice. Nor should other men be denied the benefit of warning-signs.
- chatgpt_bot 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
thenerdhead 4y ago
Does anyone know where one can find a collection of his books online? These rare books are always hard to find.
- malshe 4y ago
  The blog links to one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1258137666/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1258137666&linkCode=as2&tag=farnamstreet-20&linkId=QFEPUWW6UPIDERF2 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1258137666/ref=as_li_qf_sp...
- rramadass 4y ago
  https://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupname?key=Braun%2C%20Carl%20F%2E https://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupname...
  - thenerdhead 4y ago
    Thank you. Just what I was looking for.
gautamcgoel 4y ago
Worth pointing out that >90% of the communication issues he describes are about managing your ego.
thimkerbell 4y ago
This seems good. I do have the sense that group decisionmaking worked better before the advents of public relations and social media, among other things.
- xyzelement 4y ago
  Curious - why do you say that / what do you mean?
  - hakre 4y ago
    We sense a bit of negativity that spills from the later on to the former, so to apply the rule for today, removing the later from the equation may give you better results in decision making.
Victor21Phelps 4y ago
[flagged]

239 points by rzk 4y ago

Anyone have a lead on a digital version of "Presentation For Engineers And Industrialists"? I haven't had any luck so far.

haunter 4y ago
Libgen
- yamrzou 4y ago
  It's surprising that the Libgen book has "Digitized by Google". I wonder how users got it. Can Google Books be scraped in some way?
  - precompute 4y ago
    It must have been on Archive.org at some point.
    - lstamour 4y ago
      Or https://www.hathitrust.org/digital_library https://www.hathitrust.org/digital_library though it usually has limited access, which is unfortunate… One free method of access is a Library of Congress reader card, fyi.
      - yamrzou 4y ago
        It is the same, indeed. Thanks!
rramadass 4y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35367702 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35367702

funnym0nk3y 4y ago

I would like the work environment to be like that. But honestly I think all those things are just one half of the story. He favours a quieter approach, which I could image lead to being overseen.

precompute 4y ago
They are rules for a more civilized age. I'm sure they weren't allowed to play music on the radio or be interrupted by a phone while working, either (phones did not exist, I know). The managers probably didn't doomscroll on their phones. You couldn't backstab someone in secret. Everyone knew who the other guys in the office talked to. You had jobs that, if you stayed long enough, paid you a pension. You left your family alone, trusted the neighbourhood much more and it's likely many of your colleagues lived near you. Your corporation probably had to deliver results, couldn't bs its way out. With a new axis for communication (phones with constant internet access) all these rules have been discarded forever.
- p1necone 4y ago
  I think you're looking through rose tinted glasses about the backstabbing and knowing who people talked to stuff. I suspect office politics in a form somewhat similar to today have existed since offices were invented.

samgtx 4y ago

Oh HN is going to love this. > A somewhat more subtle form of negation, is refinement of measurement. One man says that a tank weights ninety tons. And for that particular discussion, accuracy is of no consequence. Yet someone’s ego speaks up and says, Ninety-two tons. Maybe he’s right at that. But he’s wrong just the same. […] This is a favorite husband-and-wife game. Let’s be on guard against it. > The worst trick our ego can play on us, is to demand that we know everything. Let’s discipline ourselves until it’s easy to say, I don’t know. And let’s keep out of discussions when they’re on subjects outside of our recognized sphere. Our lack of real knowledge and experience is bound to display itself, and bring resentment from those who are really qualified to speak. Let’s slap our ego down whenever it starts laying claim to knowledge that’s too various. > If we want our opinions or beliefs to be accepted, the worst thing that we can do is to press too hard for them, or to make a personal issue of them. Better not crowd for acceptance, but rather invite it. Better tender our advice with a softening It seems to me. Or an It appears. Or a Perhaps. Or with some similar concession to the ideas of our listener. True, there are times when we must speak as authorities in no uncertain terms. Even then, reasonable humility is seldom amiss. > With our eye on our brother’s ego, we’ll see that concession is the very cornerstone of good human relations. We cannot reach human agreements without mutual concession. The self-respect that every man feels impelled to maintain, demands that he appear at least partly right. Therefore, let’s not ever try to prove anyone wholly wrong. Let’s find something herein we can feel that he’s right. Then let’s say so. We simply must not build up our own ego at any unnecessary expense of our brother’s ego. Let’s keep an eye on concession.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
drc500free 4y ago
> The worst trick our ego can play on us, is to demand that we know everything. Let’s discipline ourselves until it’s easy to say, I don’t know. And let’s keep out of discussions when they’re on subjects outside of our recognized sphere. Our lack of real knowledge and experience is bound to display itself, and bring resentment from those who are really qualified to speak. Let’s slap our ego down whenever it starts laying claim to knowledge that’s too various. Growing up, all my self worth was tied to knowing everything. Several years ago I decided to work on that by publicly admitting to not knowing something every day for a month. It turned out to be one of the best personal growth exercises I've done and led to a lot of professional success. It's actually quite emotionally freeing. It also turns out that many of the people whose feathers get ruffled if they think their spot in the intellectual pecking order is being threatened will bend over backwards to help you if approached as a mentor. They don't think you're an idiot for asking, they generally love helping (assuming you are actually competent and not asking about basic shit every day).

Animats 4y ago

See the military five-paragraph order format.[1] It's boring, but useful. The military requires that orders show "commander's intent". This matters when circumstances change and some subordinate has to adapt the plan. "The enemy gets a vote." Officers and noncoms are then expected to change plans to achieve the commander's intent by other means. It's not about blind obedience. USMC doctrine: Mission tactics are just as the name implies: the tactic of assigning a subordinate mission without specifying how the mission must be accomplished. We leave the manner of accomplishing the mission to the subordinate, thereby allowing him the freedom and establishing the duty to take whatever steps he deems necessary based on the situation. The senior prescribes the method of execution only to the degree that is essential for coordination. It is this freedom for initiative that permits the high tempo of operations that we desire. Uninhibited by restrictions from above, the subordinate can adapt his actions to the changing situation. He informs his commander what he has done, but he does not wait for permission. It is obvious that we cannot allow decentralized initiative with- out some means of providing unity, or focus, to the various efforts. To do so would be to dissipate our strength. We seek unity, not through imposed control, but through harmonious initiative and lateral coordination. We achieve this harmonious initiative in large part through the use of the commander’s intent. There are two parts to a mission: the task to be accomplished and the reason, or intent. The task describes the action to be taken while the intent describes the desired result of the action. Of the two, the intent is predominant. While a situation may change, making the task obsolete, the intent is more permanent and continues to guide our actions. Under- standing our commander’s intent allows us to exercise initiative in harmony with the commander’s desires.[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_paragraph_order https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_paragraph_order [2] https://theusmarines.com/wp-content/uploads/docs/FMFM_1-1.pdf https://theusmarines.com/wp-content/uploads/docs/FMFM_1-1.pd...

p1necone 4y ago
"The enemy gets a vote." is an amazingly succinct way of putting this.
ryandrake 4y ago
Great comment! If only civilian jobs offered that level of trust to subordinates (so-called Individual Contributors). I've had a number of jobs where they supposedly hired me for my smarts, good judgment, resourcefulness and so on, and then proceeded to dictate to the pixel what my output must be. I had a manager specify the font and text size that engineering status reports (that were likely not even read) must be in. There is so much command-and-control in business that it's wild to learn that the military might be more flexible in some ways.

fwlr 4y ago

“ If then we speak up for some better job that’s open, let’s not till our talk with such words as hoping, thanking, eagerly, favor. If we are really worthy of the job, the Company will benefit by giving it to us every bit as much as we will profit by getting it.” Good advice for job applications. “I’m grateful for this opportunity” is common-place but so much less appealing than “I’m confident we’re going to get great results”.

DoreenMichele 4y ago

Assume good motives (often called assume good faith on HN) is an excellent standard to follow with one proviso: It can be taken too far. If you don't know their motives, assume good motives or good faith. But if they explicitly tell you they have hostile motives or the preponderance of the evidence suggests such, continuing to assume good faith amounts to cutting your own throat.

noncoml 4y ago
Even if they have good motives, it’s sometimes difficult. You cannot keep compensating for other people’s deficiencies. You are not Atlas to be able to bear the weight of the whole world.
- DoreenMichele 4y ago
  "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Some people would like to see themselves as good people with good intentions but all too often their actions are actively counterproductive, a la The Shirky Principle that organizations tend to keep alive the problem they were created to address. Some people just have broken mental models and then fail to update them when their efforts consistently prove "this does not actually work." We all make mistakes, but if you keep making the same mistake without any improvement, at some point others should stop making excuses for you.
  - hakre 4y ago
    Yes, intentions =/= faith, the article has that, too, even including ones' own ego: Put Error to Work > But let’s never, never, cover up error with the misguided thought that we must protect someone — either our brother, or our department, or our own pet ego. The recognition of error and its examination, if openly talked of, is a sure way to avoid its being repeated, either by the same man or by others. Everyone errs at one time or another. The Company pays for it. Okay. But the Company should not have to pay twice. Nor should other men be denied the benefit of warning-signs.
chatgpt_bot 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

thenerdhead 4y ago

Does anyone know where one can find a collection of his books online? These rare books are always hard to find.

malshe 4y ago
The blog links to one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1258137666/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1258137666&linkCode=as2&tag=farnamstreet-20&linkId=QFEPUWW6UPIDERF2 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1258137666/ref=as_li_qf_sp...
rramadass 4y ago
https://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupname?key=Braun%2C%20Carl%20F%2E https://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupname...
- thenerdhead 4y ago
  Thank you. Just what I was looking for.

gautamcgoel 4y ago

Worth pointing out that >90% of the communication issues he describes are about managing your ego.

thimkerbell 4y ago

This seems good. I do have the sense that group decisionmaking worked better before the advents of public relations and social media, among other things.

xyzelement 4y ago
Curious - why do you say that / what do you mean?
- hakre 4y ago
  We sense a bit of negativity that spills from the later on to the former, so to apply the rule for today, removing the later from the equation may give you better results in decision making.

Victor21Phelps 4y ago

[flagged]