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If you don't need the extended range of a brand new battery, I think you'll be able to pick up a used one for cheap soon enough. My parents bought a Tesla a fe

If you don't need the extended range of a brand new battery, I think you'll be able to pick up a used one for cheap soon enough. My parents bought a Tesla a few months ago because their Leaf's battery life fell below the point where they could get to work and back reliably on a single charge and they spent months waiting for a battery replacement (they're still waiting). If their supply problems continue, people are going to start dumping more and more used electrical cars and going back to gas or to companies that can actually keep up battery supply like Tesla.

logifail 4y ago
> If you don't need the extended range of a brand new battery [..] My OH drove the best part of 200 miles, round trip, on the spur of the moment to pick me up at an airport late in the evening after my flight was badly delayed, she got to the airport just as I came through baggage reclaim so was at the airport less than 10 mins. That was just last week. By sheer coincidence I drove to pick her up at the same airport the week before, although at least I knew that journey was coming ahead of time. What do used EV owners with smaller and/or degraded batteries say to each other in that scenario? "Sorry, I can't come and pick you up, the car's not charged?" A car that can't manage to drive to a local airport and back in one go is exhibiting a fairly critical flaw, at least for people like us.
- ericd 4y ago
  You can go to a supercharger after the first leg and spend 10-15 minutes there. It's really not the issue you'd think it is reading all the concern from people online. And Tesla batteries degrade much slower than you'd think based on experience with consumer electronics.
  - logifail 4y ago
    > It's really not the issue you'd think it is [..] I appreciate that there are a lot of happy Tesla owners, indeed there are two in the office I'm working in this week, their Model 3s are parked outside. I had a ride in one recently, it was fun. Not something I'd buy, though. Is it possible that EVs still aren't the good fit you think they are for a substantial proportion of price-sensitive consumers? Also, the political landscape around EVs may still be evolving. This month the EU's policy to ban the sale of new combustion engine cars in the bloc by 2035 was substantially weakened after pressure from Germany[0], and the UK's policy is as a result - shall we say - "wobbling"?[1] [0] https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/24/cars/eu-combustion-engine-debate-climate-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/24/cars/eu-combustion-engine... [1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/03/28/net-zero-ban-petrol-cars-chaos-brussels-climbdown/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/03/28/net-zero-ban... or https://archive.is/R6zVZ https://archive.is/R6zVZ
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      > Is it possible that EVs still aren't the good fit you think they are for a substantial proportion of price-sensitive consumers? The reality is flipped around. The vast majority of consumers, even price sensitive ones, would be better served by an EV. The edge cases trotted out in conversations like this are the exception, not the norm.
    - qdog 4y ago
      New bolt is what, 20k after incentive? I would assume in 5 years those will be cheaper used. No one is selling 11k gas cars worth a damn last I checked, either, there just isn't a huge supply of used electrics at the moment. Not that I'm telling you to buy an EV, but EV's are like 6% of (new)sales this year iirc, I expect next year is 7-8%, then 9-11%? After 10% of sales and all the growth is in EVs I expect the market to change quickly, like gas car sales to just fall off a cliff as legacy automakers really start to scramble. Well, at least in the US, seems China has a much higher EV share. Anyways, yeah, probably somewhere in the 4-7 year range from now, there will be some good options in cheaper, used EVs for people, and probably more than just the Bolt that has decent range at low end new pricing. Until their a substantial used inventory and more deliveries, sure, EVs are not attractive to the people you refer to. At least in the US.
- gruez 4y ago
  >My OH drove the best part of 200 miles, round trip, on the spur of the moment to pick me up at an airport late in the evening after my flight was badly delayed[ ...] > A car that can't manage to drive to a local airport and back in one go is exhibiting a fairly critical flaw, at least for people like us. Isn't this a standard trade-off? I have a sedan rather than a SUV or a pickup, and last year when I wanted to move some large items I couldn't. That's fine, because the other 99.5% of days I don't need that much capacity. Unless you frequently need to go on 200 mile trips on a whim, it's not as big of a dealbreaker than you think.
- akiselev 4y ago
  It sounds like you do need the extended range of a new battery but aren't willing to pay for it. Too bad, then...? That's why I added a conditional, because I can't read your mind.
- _ea1k 4y ago
  That kind of job is not what you'd get a <100 mile car for. They replace commuters for people who never need their commuter vehicle to do that. That's definitely not for everyone. Even the smallest range Tesla, Bolt, ID.4, or many others would be fine.
- lostlogin 4y ago
  > What do used EV owners with smaller and/or degraded batteries say to each other in that scenario? I’ll be a bit longer that usual sorry. I need to fast charge. Range anxiety is something you have before you get an EV in my extensive survey of 4 people.
zamnos 4y ago
Used Teslas are already on the market. Theres a used 2012 and 2014 the next city over from me for $25k and $34k, respectively. Doesn't seem too bad for a car that was over $100k when it was new.
- logifail 4y ago
  > Doesn't seem too bad for a car that was over $100k when it was new. This vehicle segment has always been notorious for depreciation, look at all the stories about buying a used S-class "for cheap".
  - _ea1k 4y ago
    The YT videos of those are usually entertaining.
- _ea1k 4y ago
  The biggest risk with those is the battery pack. If they haven't had a pack replacement under warranty since ~2016, they will have a much higher than average failure rate. Third party repair is ~5-20k + shipment costs. Tesla is ~15-20k.
- gibspaulding 4y ago
  That still sounds steep to me. 10 years old beta technology in a category where technology has been progressing very fast so that new (<<$100k) models are far superior vehicles, not to mention the "beware the third owner hellkat" issue. I could get a brand spanking new Prius for that.
  - zamnos 4y ago
    Yeah but then have the issue known as "driving a Prius". Might not be a problem if you're in California. Hell that'll get you positive "saving the Earth" smug points. Elsewhere that might be an issue to be avoided at all costs though.
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago

logifail 4y ago

> If you don't need the extended range of a brand new battery [..] My OH drove the best part of 200 miles, round trip, on the spur of the moment to pick me up at an airport late in the evening after my flight was badly delayed, she got to the airport just as I came through baggage reclaim so was at the airport less than 10 mins. That was just last week. By sheer coincidence I drove to pick her up at the same airport the week before, although at least I knew that journey was coming ahead of time. What do used EV owners with smaller and/or degraded batteries say to each other in that scenario? "Sorry, I can't come and pick you up, the car's not charged?" A car that can't manage to drive to a local airport and back in one go is exhibiting a fairly critical flaw, at least for people like us.

ericd 4y ago
You can go to a supercharger after the first leg and spend 10-15 minutes there. It's really not the issue you'd think it is reading all the concern from people online. And Tesla batteries degrade much slower than you'd think based on experience with consumer electronics.
- logifail 4y ago
  > It's really not the issue you'd think it is [..] I appreciate that there are a lot of happy Tesla owners, indeed there are two in the office I'm working in this week, their Model 3s are parked outside. I had a ride in one recently, it was fun. Not something I'd buy, though. Is it possible that EVs still aren't the good fit you think they are for a substantial proportion of price-sensitive consumers? Also, the political landscape around EVs may still be evolving. This month the EU's policy to ban the sale of new combustion engine cars in the bloc by 2035 was substantially weakened after pressure from Germany[0], and the UK's policy is as a result - shall we say - "wobbling"?[1] [0] https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/24/cars/eu-combustion-engine-debate-climate-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/24/cars/eu-combustion-engine... [1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/03/28/net-zero-ban-petrol-cars-chaos-brussels-climbdown/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/03/28/net-zero-ban... or https://archive.is/R6zVZ https://archive.is/R6zVZ
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    > Is it possible that EVs still aren't the good fit you think they are for a substantial proportion of price-sensitive consumers? The reality is flipped around. The vast majority of consumers, even price sensitive ones, would be better served by an EV. The edge cases trotted out in conversations like this are the exception, not the norm.
  - qdog 4y ago
    New bolt is what, 20k after incentive? I would assume in 5 years those will be cheaper used. No one is selling 11k gas cars worth a damn last I checked, either, there just isn't a huge supply of used electrics at the moment. Not that I'm telling you to buy an EV, but EV's are like 6% of (new)sales this year iirc, I expect next year is 7-8%, then 9-11%? After 10% of sales and all the growth is in EVs I expect the market to change quickly, like gas car sales to just fall off a cliff as legacy automakers really start to scramble. Well, at least in the US, seems China has a much higher EV share. Anyways, yeah, probably somewhere in the 4-7 year range from now, there will be some good options in cheaper, used EVs for people, and probably more than just the Bolt that has decent range at low end new pricing. Until their a substantial used inventory and more deliveries, sure, EVs are not attractive to the people you refer to. At least in the US.
gruez 4y ago
>My OH drove the best part of 200 miles, round trip, on the spur of the moment to pick me up at an airport late in the evening after my flight was badly delayed[ ...] > A car that can't manage to drive to a local airport and back in one go is exhibiting a fairly critical flaw, at least for people like us. Isn't this a standard trade-off? I have a sedan rather than a SUV or a pickup, and last year when I wanted to move some large items I couldn't. That's fine, because the other 99.5% of days I don't need that much capacity. Unless you frequently need to go on 200 mile trips on a whim, it's not as big of a dealbreaker than you think.
akiselev 4y ago
It sounds like you do need the extended range of a new battery but aren't willing to pay for it. Too bad, then...? That's why I added a conditional, because I can't read your mind.
_ea1k 4y ago
That kind of job is not what you'd get a <100 mile car for. They replace commuters for people who never need their commuter vehicle to do that. That's definitely not for everyone. Even the smallest range Tesla, Bolt, ID.4, or many others would be fine.
lostlogin 4y ago
> What do used EV owners with smaller and/or degraded batteries say to each other in that scenario? I’ll be a bit longer that usual sorry. I need to fast charge. Range anxiety is something you have before you get an EV in my extensive survey of 4 people.

zamnos 4y ago

Used Teslas are already on the market. Theres a used 2012 and 2014 the next city over from me for $25k and $34k, respectively. Doesn't seem too bad for a car that was over $100k when it was new.

logifail 4y ago
> Doesn't seem too bad for a car that was over $100k when it was new. This vehicle segment has always been notorious for depreciation, look at all the stories about buying a used S-class "for cheap".
- _ea1k 4y ago
  The YT videos of those are usually entertaining.
_ea1k 4y ago
The biggest risk with those is the battery pack. If they haven't had a pack replacement under warranty since ~2016, they will have a much higher than average failure rate. Third party repair is ~5-20k + shipment costs. Tesla is ~15-20k.
gibspaulding 4y ago
That still sounds steep to me. 10 years old beta technology in a category where technology has been progressing very fast so that new (<<$100k) models are far superior vehicles, not to mention the "beware the third owner hellkat" issue. I could get a brand spanking new Prius for that.
- zamnos 4y ago
  Yeah but then have the issue known as "driving a Prius". Might not be a problem if you're in California. Hell that'll get you positive "saving the Earth" smug points. Elsewhere that might be an issue to be avoided at all costs though.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago