4 ms·

I'm not privy to anything special here, but I do get the impression that (intuitively) it's easier to target layoffs in areas with weaker employee protection la

I'm not privy to anything special here, but I do get the impression that (intuitively) it's easier to target layoffs in areas with weaker employee protection laws. In most EU countries, it's pretty hard to make these kinds of redundancies without going through a slow and expensive process, as well as paying severance.

ethicalsmacker 4y ago
Or areas with weaker employees. I doubt they axed an entire team for monetary reasons alone. They could have axed 1/10th the employees in the bay area and probably covered the entire India roster (financial cost wise).
- howinteresting 4y ago
  Senior-level engineers in India, of the caliber that GitHub would hire, easily clear USD 100k+/year. It's not as expensive as Bay Area talent but not cheap either.
  - pcthrowaway 4y ago
    Maybe in general this is true? But then Github's hires were not those, according to https://www.levels.fyi/companies/github/salaries/software-engineer?country=113&offset=0 https://www.levels.fyi/companies/github/salaries/software-en...
    - unmole 4y ago
      I don't know about GitHub in particular but levels.fyi in general is not accurate for positions in India.
      - zuhayeer 4y ago
        Founder of Levels.fyi here, we have a page for salaries in India more specifically here: https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/india https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/india We just haven’t done a great job of building awareness for all of our different locations, but you can find them on our location directory here: https://levels.fyi/locations https://levels.fyi/locations
    - howinteresting 4y ago
      The one reported E4, i.e. senior level, is at over 100k. But I agree that these salaries are a bit low.
  - xiaodai 4y ago
    the issues is these top talent often get offers in the us so they leave. so the churn is horrible
abhishekjha 4y ago
Spotify EU did a layoff not too long ago and so did Miro.
_xivi 4y ago
Wouldn't these protective laws help promote outsourcing tho? Less headache, not to mention wages Similar to that in finance, where big corporations have the luxury to establish entities in tax heavens and avoid paying large sums while still operating just fine
- prottog 4y ago
  This is generally true. The same laws that make employees harder to be fired also means companies are more reluctant to hire them, since the cost of making a bad hire is that much higher. France is famous for having more than double the number of companies with exactly 49 employees than exactly 50 employees, and you can guess the reason why.
  - nradov 4y ago
    That is also why France has a high level of labor productivity. The least productive workers never get hired at all because no employer wants to take a chance on them. In highly regulated labor markets it's particularly tough for marginalized youths to get started and work their way out of the underclass.
    - prottog 4y ago
      > it's particularly tough for marginalized youths to get started and work their way out of the underclass. Yes, this is the point I always want to emphasize. Policies like this always favor those already inside (the existing workers being protected by tough-to-fire laws) at the expense of those looking inside from the outside (the newly-grads and members of marginalized groups trying to get started). I similarly disfavor minimum wage laws.
      - vivegi 4y ago
        > I similarly disfavor minimum wage laws I am trying to understand this more. Why would a minimum wage law be unfriendly to a specific class of workers? Doesn't that just establish a right for the worker and an obligation for the employer to meet. What about pay transparency rules for job postings (that are mandatory in some jurisdictions)? In principle, I feel they help the job seeker although corporations get away with specifying a wide range. At least, it establishes the start of the salary negotiation.
throwaway2037 4y ago
Are you implying that employee protection laws are weak in India? They are not. I have multiple, first hand experiences where it was very difficult to layoff underperforming staff. It is much easier to layoff in US and UK. (Continental Europe is a mixed bag.)
- unmole 4y ago
  IT and biotech industries are typically exempted from many employment laws. VC-subsidised, chronically unprofitable companies have laid off tens of thousands of people in the past few months.
rr808 4y ago
Sure that is one of the main reasons why USA always wins for startups and fast growing high tech.

ethicalsmacker 4y ago

Or areas with weaker employees. I doubt they axed an entire team for monetary reasons alone. They could have axed 1/10th the employees in the bay area and probably covered the entire India roster (financial cost wise).

howinteresting 4y ago
Senior-level engineers in India, of the caliber that GitHub would hire, easily clear USD 100k+/year. It's not as expensive as Bay Area talent but not cheap either.
- pcthrowaway 4y ago
  Maybe in general this is true? But then Github's hires were not those, according to https://www.levels.fyi/companies/github/salaries/software-engineer?country=113&offset=0 https://www.levels.fyi/companies/github/salaries/software-en...
  - unmole 4y ago
    I don't know about GitHub in particular but levels.fyi in general is not accurate for positions in India.
    - zuhayeer 4y ago
      Founder of Levels.fyi here, we have a page for salaries in India more specifically here: https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/india https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/india We just haven’t done a great job of building awareness for all of our different locations, but you can find them on our location directory here: https://levels.fyi/locations https://levels.fyi/locations
  - howinteresting 4y ago
    The one reported E4, i.e. senior level, is at over 100k. But I agree that these salaries are a bit low.
- xiaodai 4y ago
  the issues is these top talent often get offers in the us so they leave. so the churn is horrible

abhishekjha 4y ago

Spotify EU did a layoff not too long ago and so did Miro.

_xivi 4y ago

Wouldn't these protective laws help promote outsourcing tho? Less headache, not to mention wages Similar to that in finance, where big corporations have the luxury to establish entities in tax heavens and avoid paying large sums while still operating just fine

prottog 4y ago
This is generally true. The same laws that make employees harder to be fired also means companies are more reluctant to hire them, since the cost of making a bad hire is that much higher. France is famous for having more than double the number of companies with exactly 49 employees than exactly 50 employees, and you can guess the reason why.
- nradov 4y ago
  That is also why France has a high level of labor productivity. The least productive workers never get hired at all because no employer wants to take a chance on them. In highly regulated labor markets it's particularly tough for marginalized youths to get started and work their way out of the underclass.
  - prottog 4y ago
    > it's particularly tough for marginalized youths to get started and work their way out of the underclass. Yes, this is the point I always want to emphasize. Policies like this always favor those already inside (the existing workers being protected by tough-to-fire laws) at the expense of those looking inside from the outside (the newly-grads and members of marginalized groups trying to get started). I similarly disfavor minimum wage laws.
    - vivegi 4y ago
      > I similarly disfavor minimum wage laws I am trying to understand this more. Why would a minimum wage law be unfriendly to a specific class of workers? Doesn't that just establish a right for the worker and an obligation for the employer to meet. What about pay transparency rules for job postings (that are mandatory in some jurisdictions)? In principle, I feel they help the job seeker although corporations get away with specifying a wide range. At least, it establishes the start of the salary negotiation.

throwaway2037 4y ago

Are you implying that employee protection laws are weak in India? They are not. I have multiple, first hand experiences where it was very difficult to layoff underperforming staff. It is much easier to layoff in US and UK. (Continental Europe is a mixed bag.)

unmole 4y ago
IT and biotech industries are typically exempted from many employment laws. VC-subsidised, chronically unprofitable companies have laid off tens of thousands of people in the past few months.

rr808 4y ago

Sure that is one of the main reasons why USA always wins for startups and fast growing high tech.