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The question you should ask, as a fellow European, is whether reducing influence from the US government, a stable but somewhat flawed democracy, is worth the pr

by marvin 4y ago

The question you should ask, as a fellow European, is whether reducing influence from the US government, a stable but somewhat flawed democracy, is worth the price of losing access to US social media. Think in geopolitical terms, with all this entails of long-term divergence in cultural values, trade and other forms of economic compatibility. And whether this judgement is significantly different from whether reducing influence from the CCP, an obviously totalitarian government that does not balk at overtly undermining of democratic values within your own borders, is worth losing access to TikTok.

luispauloml 4y ago
I am confused by your questions, honestly. Maybe my English skills are lacking, but could you clarify? Here: - Is it worth losing access to US social media to reduce the influence of the US government? - Is it worth losing access to TikTok to reduce the influence of the CCP? Are these the questions your are asking? I really want to understand your comment because I think the same as the parent commenter. And even though I don't understand what you're try saying, it seems like they are important questions I should ask myself.
- fknorangesite 4y ago
  Yes, that is what they are asking.
- Initial_BP 4y ago
  I think the previous commenter was implying that one may be worse than the other and trying to get you to reevaluate the idea that you see banning tiktok to be the same as banning US social media because of the differences between the Chinese government and the US government.
  - marvin 4y ago
    Yes. Banning US social media will in my estimation be a net loss for Europe, whereas banning TikTok would be a net win. Subtle US interference and soft power, unpalatable though it may be, is not a real problem for European quality of life even in isolation, certainly not compared to the benefits of cultural exhcange & compatibility, and the following long-term trade and geopolitical cooperation with the US. Whereas interference and soft power from the CCP deliberately undermines multiple core values of our society. It’s pretty damn obvious. I guess to which degree Europe & the EU actually follows democratic values is a separate and very worthwhile discussion; maybe it’s closely related. Certainly looks like that from where I sit, at the northernmost border of the economic block.
rpgbr 4y ago
I’d very much appreciate a reduced US influence and social apps in my country.
- mikrotikker 4y ago
  I'd rather the US than CCP because my culture, political system and system of law more closely matches that of the USA. The CCP seeks to undermine these systems to favour totalitarianism.
  - rpgbr 4y ago
    Yeah, because US were always a champion in democracy cries in Latin America’s multiple 20th century dictatorships backed by the US
    - mikrotikker 4y ago
      Yes I am aware of that. I have read confessions of an economic hitman many times, great book. Still it has not much of an effect on the here and now. I'd still rather not be ruled by a communist totalitarian dictatorship.
hyuuu 4y ago
imo, our data is getting harvested regardless, and if we were to have a say, I'd choose whichever country that does not have a tendency towards violence and let's be honest, between the options on the table, which one has a longer track record of waging wars? I don't want that country.
- mikrotikker 4y ago
  I'd rather the country that spent 800,000 lives ending slavery than the one that executed tens of millions in the great leap forward for petty and ideological reasons.
MiguelX413 4y ago
Social media provides no value.
Jochim 4y ago
In geopolitical terms, the US has spent the last decade antagonising China for internal political gain. Resulting in the present situation where they've chosen not to align with the west on Russian sanctions. Not to say that China is entirely free from blame either. As a European, I'm more likely to be extradited and tortured by the US than the CCP. I'm sure much of the world hasn't forgotten their penchant for assassinations, support for dictators, and destabilisation of democratically elected governments. Let's not forget the decades long mess that was the Iraq war.
- mikrotikker 4y ago
  Chinese expats are frequently "extradited" to face torture via the Chinese police stations set up in foreign countries around the would.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    Not just Chinese expats, you could totally switch your citizenship to Swedish and still get abducted by the Chinese government in Thailand.
    - Jochim 4y ago
      Glass houses: > The administration of President George W. Bush abducted hundreds of "illegal combatants" for U.S. detention, and transported detainees to U.S.-controlled sites as part of an extensive interrogation program that included torture. > Extraordinary rendition continued under the Obama administration, with targets being interrogated and subsequently taken to the U.S. for trial. > A June 2006 report estimated that one hundred people had been kidnapped by the CIA on European Union soil [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition
      - mikrotikker 4y ago
        Yes that is also bad. You want a cookie?
      - deleted 4y ago

by marvin 4y ago

luispauloml 4y ago

I am confused by your questions, honestly. Maybe my English skills are lacking, but could you clarify? Here: - Is it worth losing access to US social media to reduce the influence of the US government? - Is it worth losing access to TikTok to reduce the influence of the CCP? Are these the questions your are asking? I really want to understand your comment because I think the same as the parent commenter. And even though I don't understand what you're try saying, it seems like they are important questions I should ask myself.

fknorangesite 4y ago
Yes, that is what they are asking.
Initial_BP 4y ago
I think the previous commenter was implying that one may be worse than the other and trying to get you to reevaluate the idea that you see banning tiktok to be the same as banning US social media because of the differences between the Chinese government and the US government.
- marvin 4y ago
  Yes. Banning US social media will in my estimation be a net loss for Europe, whereas banning TikTok would be a net win. Subtle US interference and soft power, unpalatable though it may be, is not a real problem for European quality of life even in isolation, certainly not compared to the benefits of cultural exhcange & compatibility, and the following long-term trade and geopolitical cooperation with the US. Whereas interference and soft power from the CCP deliberately undermines multiple core values of our society. It’s pretty damn obvious. I guess to which degree Europe & the EU actually follows democratic values is a separate and very worthwhile discussion; maybe it’s closely related. Certainly looks like that from where I sit, at the northernmost border of the economic block.

rpgbr 4y ago

I’d very much appreciate a reduced US influence and social apps in my country.

mikrotikker 4y ago
I'd rather the US than CCP because my culture, political system and system of law more closely matches that of the USA. The CCP seeks to undermine these systems to favour totalitarianism.
- rpgbr 4y ago
  Yeah, because US were always a champion in democracy cries in Latin America’s multiple 20th century dictatorships backed by the US
  - mikrotikker 4y ago
    Yes I am aware of that. I have read confessions of an economic hitman many times, great book. Still it has not much of an effect on the here and now. I'd still rather not be ruled by a communist totalitarian dictatorship.

hyuuu 4y ago

imo, our data is getting harvested regardless, and if we were to have a say, I'd choose whichever country that does not have a tendency towards violence and let's be honest, between the options on the table, which one has a longer track record of waging wars? I don't want that country.

mikrotikker 4y ago
I'd rather the country that spent 800,000 lives ending slavery than the one that executed tens of millions in the great leap forward for petty and ideological reasons.

MiguelX413 4y ago

Social media provides no value.

Jochim 4y ago

In geopolitical terms, the US has spent the last decade antagonising China for internal political gain. Resulting in the present situation where they've chosen not to align with the west on Russian sanctions. Not to say that China is entirely free from blame either. As a European, I'm more likely to be extradited and tortured by the US than the CCP. I'm sure much of the world hasn't forgotten their penchant for assassinations, support for dictators, and destabilisation of democratically elected governments. Let's not forget the decades long mess that was the Iraq war.

mikrotikker 4y ago
Chinese expats are frequently "extradited" to face torture via the Chinese police stations set up in foreign countries around the would.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  Not just Chinese expats, you could totally switch your citizenship to Swedish and still get abducted by the Chinese government in Thailand.
  - Jochim 4y ago
    Glass houses: > The administration of President George W. Bush abducted hundreds of "illegal combatants" for U.S. detention, and transported detainees to U.S.-controlled sites as part of an extensive interrogation program that included torture. > Extraordinary rendition continued under the Obama administration, with targets being interrogated and subsequently taken to the U.S. for trial. > A June 2006 report estimated that one hundred people had been kidnapped by the CIA on European Union soil [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition
    - mikrotikker 4y ago
      Yes that is also bad. You want a cookie?
    - deleted 4y ago