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> First, for the record, any claims that unions make this process harder is a lie designed by a union busting consulting firm. Do you have anything to back thi

by vuln 4y ago

> First, for the record, any claims that unions make this process harder is a lie designed by a union busting consulting firm. Do you have anything to back this up? It appears to just be your opinion presented as fact. While I’d love to take your word on your opinion presented as a fact; I would prefer to see some data or documentation to back it up. Thanks!

ahepp 4y ago
I dunno. Where does the burden of proof lie on this? Starbucks seems to be the one claiming they can’t give arbitrary raises to union workers. The union seems to be saying “you can!” It seems to me that Starbucks is pulling a “we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!” here. On one hand I can see why they’d do that, on the other hand they still need to operate within federal employment law and it sounds like the NLRB says they aren’t. Presumably they can challenge that in court if they disagree?
- fallingknife 4y ago
  The burden of proof lies on the person who claims that literally any statement that contradicts his argument is malicious propaganda.
alasarmas 4y ago
You’re right, it is an opinion. There is probably no easy way to substantiate the statement “any claims that unions make this process harder is a lie designed by a union busting consulting firm”. On the other hand, the entire job of a union busting consulting firm is to spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt about unions. The claim that unions would take actions, or fail to take actions, to make it less likely for their members to receive a pay raise, is the kind of claim that a union busting consulting firm would likely make. This is Public Relations 101.
- edgyquant 4y ago
  And the whole point of a union bureaucracy is to justify its existence and paint all employers as great villains. Your biased here. It’s not this black and white.
  - xracy 4y ago
    coming off of close to 50 years of anti-union sentiment as well as fewer unions and more union busting. We're as close to black and white as we can get in any discussion about current events. Is the claim defendable, probably not, but the NLRB just found that Starbucks is trying to discourage stores from unionizing (which sounds like something they would do...) So I'm much more inclined to believe they're being unhelpful in union negotiations than a newly minted union is.
    - vuln 4y ago
      > newly minted union The union does not appear to be new at least to me. It seems like the StarBucks union is apart of a larger organization of unions. So this isn’t a _new_ union or a union _moving fast and breaking things_ it’s a conglomerate of other much veteran unions. > Starbucks Workers United is a national collective of Starbucks Partners who help organize workplaces alongside Workers United Upstate, a union with members across many industries, including the coffee industry. https://www.forbes.com/sites/qai/2022/12/19/starbucks-union-why-are-workers-unionizing-now-what-do-unions-really-mean-to-investors/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/qai/2022/12/19/starbucks-union-...
      - xracy 4y ago
        > The current Starbucks unionization movement began in Buffalo, New York when a store voted to unionize in late 2021. Less than 2 years from your own article. That counts as newly minted. Also how many of those locations have a contract at this point? That's the bigger and more relevant piece of this. The fact that other unions are helping them out, doesn't mean that those other unions have negotiated with Starbucks. That's it's own thing that makes every union negotiation different.
    - 4y ago
equalsione 4y ago
All described here but there's lots more: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/may/04/starbucks-anti-union-tactics https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/may/04/starbucks-a...

by vuln 4y ago

ahepp 4y ago

I dunno. Where does the burden of proof lie on this? Starbucks seems to be the one claiming they can’t give arbitrary raises to union workers. The union seems to be saying “you can!” It seems to me that Starbucks is pulling a “we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!” here. On one hand I can see why they’d do that, on the other hand they still need to operate within federal employment law and it sounds like the NLRB says they aren’t. Presumably they can challenge that in court if they disagree?

fallingknife 4y ago
The burden of proof lies on the person who claims that literally any statement that contradicts his argument is malicious propaganda.

alasarmas 4y ago

You’re right, it is an opinion. There is probably no easy way to substantiate the statement “any claims that unions make this process harder is a lie designed by a union busting consulting firm”. On the other hand, the entire job of a union busting consulting firm is to spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt about unions. The claim that unions would take actions, or fail to take actions, to make it less likely for their members to receive a pay raise, is the kind of claim that a union busting consulting firm would likely make. This is Public Relations 101.

edgyquant 4y ago
And the whole point of a union bureaucracy is to justify its existence and paint all employers as great villains. Your biased here. It’s not this black and white.
- xracy 4y ago
  coming off of close to 50 years of anti-union sentiment as well as fewer unions and more union busting. We're as close to black and white as we can get in any discussion about current events. Is the claim defendable, probably not, but the NLRB just found that Starbucks is trying to discourage stores from unionizing (which sounds like something they would do...) So I'm much more inclined to believe they're being unhelpful in union negotiations than a newly minted union is.
  - vuln 4y ago
    > newly minted union The union does not appear to be new at least to me. It seems like the StarBucks union is apart of a larger organization of unions. So this isn’t a _new_ union or a union _moving fast and breaking things_ it’s a conglomerate of other much veteran unions. > Starbucks Workers United is a national collective of Starbucks Partners who help organize workplaces alongside Workers United Upstate, a union with members across many industries, including the coffee industry. https://www.forbes.com/sites/qai/2022/12/19/starbucks-union-why-are-workers-unionizing-now-what-do-unions-really-mean-to-investors/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/qai/2022/12/19/starbucks-union-...
    - xracy 4y ago
      > The current Starbucks unionization movement began in Buffalo, New York when a store voted to unionize in late 2021. Less than 2 years from your own article. That counts as newly minted. Also how many of those locations have a contract at this point? That's the bigger and more relevant piece of this. The fact that other unions are helping them out, doesn't mean that those other unions have negotiated with Starbucks. That's it's own thing that makes every union negotiation different.
  - 4y ago

equalsione 4y ago

All described here but there's lots more: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/may/04/starbucks-anti-union-tactics https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/may/04/starbucks-a...