7 ms·

From the article: brought in rules which ban NGO vessels from performing more than one rescue at sea at a time This seems like a bit of an over reach. Maybe

• deleted 4y ago
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• AS37 4y ago
  > 2. How come Italy can dictate what foreign vessels (Banksys ship is registered in German as per the article) do in international waters? The answer is basically they can because they can. The ship isn't picking people up and delivering them to Germany, they're picking people up and delivering them to Italy. When the ship is docked in Italy it is at the whim of the Italian authorities.
  • buraktamturk 4y ago
    Legally speaking, they can't. It doesn't matter where the ship will be docking. Anything otherwise is a crime against humanity. International laws and EU laws are bigger than any Italian authority and Italian laws that has been ever established.
    • fnmron 4y ago
      Not really, italian law rules in italy, that's out of question.
      • buraktamturk 4y ago
        Not at all. Laws has to be compatible with universal laws, international treaties/laws such as UN Geneva Convention and for Italy also the EU laws. Along many other conditions such as arbitrariness.
        • tablespoon 4y ago
          > Not at all. Laws has to be compatible with universal laws, international treaties/laws such as UN Geneva Convention and for Italy also the EU laws. Along many other conditions such as arbitrariness. No they don't. What authority enforces that? If not other country or international body has the willingness and capability to go to war with Italy in order to enforce its opinions, and if no country is willing to shun Italy over this or Italy is fine with the shunning, then Italy can have whatever laws it likes.
          • buraktamturk 4y ago
            They do. I do not have to convince you that 2+2=4. If you have read recent European Human Rights Court decisions, you can clearly see what kind of domestic laws is in violation of law. (Yes, I mean some domestic laws are in violation of laws)
            • tablespoon 4y ago
              > They do. I do not have to convince you that 2+2=4. Yeah, because you're trying to convince me that 2+2=5. > If you have read recent European Human Rights Court decisions, you can clearly see what kind of domestic laws is in violation of law. (Yes, I mean some domestic laws are in violation of laws) And what's that court going to do to make Italy comply? For instance: I can claim until I'm blue in the face that everyone has to comply with some "universal law" that I declare, and I can issue statements to that effect, but in reality that's totally meaningless because I lack the power to make others follow me. There are a lot of international bodies that makes similar claims, and similarly lack the power. Maybe those bodies persuaded you, but that doesn't matter to the unpersuaded. International relations is literally anarchy. Sometimes there's cooperation that looks like law, and rhetoric that that claims the moral force of law, but the reality is anarchy -- which is why Putin was able to invade Ukraine and North Korea's government has remained in place for 70 years, doing things liberals find to be horrific and "illegal" the whole time.
    • HailingFailing 4y ago
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      • drcongo 4y ago
        Why did you feel the need to create a new account to post this?
        • TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
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        • HailingFailing 4y ago
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      • 6510 4y ago
        they don't necessarily get to see the travel accommodations before paying
      • MattPalmer1086 4y ago
        Yeah, those criminal migrants. How dare they risk their lives in small boats. It's almost like they had a really good reason to do it. Where is your humanity, your compassion?
        • HailingFailing 4y ago
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          • MattPalmer1086 4y ago
            There is no evidence that migrants commit more crime than native people, violent or not. You say you are worried that your grandchildren will have no place to live among their "own kind". Being human not enough? Frankly you sound like a racist.
• expotesticle 4y ago
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• ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >How come Italy can dictate what foreign vessels (Banksys ship is registered in German as per the article) do in international waters? IIRC they can't have a say on what they do in international waters. They can however have a say on a German ship bringing migrants into an Italian port. It's up to the Italian authorities to accept or deny the German vessel at that point. Unless Banksy or the German Gov. provides a shuttle transport from Italy to Germany, then that's like me going around the neighborhood rescuing stray dogs and cats and dumping them on a neighbor's yard because he's closer to where I found them. It then becomes less "me rescuing them" and more "me making it someone else's problem".
• kitd 4y ago
  Seems like there's an opportunity for NGO boats to distribute the survivors amongst themselves while in international waters. No way for the Italians to know who rescued who. Or, you know, have some humanity and let them come ashore anyway.
  • ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >Or, you know, have some humanity and let them come ashore anyway. But practical humanity needs to be backed up by resources to provide to the new arrivals, not just thoughts and prayers: housing, energy, schooling, medical care, jobs, etc. Those aren't in excess supply right now. Many EU countries, like Italy, have seen a Real GDP per capita stagnation since 2008. Since covid and the war, most Europeans have taken a real hit on their wallets and the social services. If you're stretched thin, with not enough to go around for the locals, they might not accept your humanitarian efort towards outsiders as being in their best interest, and vote for some rightwing muppet with a funny moustache in your place. Not the scenario we need right now.
  • thefz 4y ago
    You still have to know who is coming, especially the number, to start a search and rescue operation if someone is suspected to be still in the sea.
  • readthenotes1 4y ago
    have some humanity, don't dump them all in Italy. German flag? Take them to Germany.
  • nradov 4y ago
    No one is seriously proposing that migrants be allowed to drown. The real question is whether they should be brought ashore in Italy, or in some other country.
• thefz 4y ago
  > This seems like a bit of an over reach. Maybe someone can provide some context that is missing in the article NGOs are being rate limited but the coast guard is not. This is to prevent the NGOs to overload with comms and requests the coast guard, in the frequent cases in which they are already working on a rescue. It's a little too easy rhetoric to point out that the current government is right-wing. This is a rule in place to prevent an unorderly and (even more) dangerous rescue. > "The order was issued as a result of the findings made by IMRCC Rome (rescue coordinating authority) under Decree Law 1/2023, converted into Law 15/2023 and bearing 'urgent provisions on transit and stopover in territorial waters of non-governmental vessels engaged in rescue operations at sea.' The unit, specifically, after carrying out the first rescue operation in Libyan waters, contravened the imparted disposition to reach the port of Trapani, directing instead on 3 other units of migrants on which, moreover, under the coordination of IMRCC Rome, were already directing in rescue the means of the Italian Coast Guard." > "The dispositions given to the NGO ship, given its small size, were also aimed at preventing it from taking on board such a number of people as to jeopardize both its own safety and that of the migrant boats to which it would provide rescue. The failure to comply with the provisions, moreover, slowed down the achievement of a port of disembarkation for the migrants rescued in the first intervention, initially identified in that of Trapani by the Ministry of the Interior, thus inducing the decision to redesign the arrival of the NGO, for reasons of safety and urgency, in the port of Lampedusa, already, moreover, solicited by the numerous arrivals of migrants in recent days." > "To such behavior, which in itself already complicated the delicate work of coordinating relief," it goes on to read, "were added the continuous calls from the NGO air assets that overloaded the communication systems of the national relief coordination center, overlapping and duplicating the signals of the already present state air assets. Similarly, the incident cited by NGO Ocean Viking and referring to alleged Libyan coast guard gunfire that occurred in the SAR area falling under the responsibility of another national coordination center, was not being reported to the flag country as would be required by navigation safety regulations, but rather to the Italian coordination center on a continuous basis, again ending up overloading the IMRCC at particularly intensive times of ongoing relief efforts. Nevertheless, in 48 hours more than 3,300 people aboard 58 boats were rescued under the coordination of the Italian Coast Guard." If you want to translate by yourself: > “Il provvedimento è stato emesso a seguito degli accertamenti effettuati da IMRCC Roma (autorità coordinatrice dei soccorsi) in base al DL 1/2023, convertito nella legge 15/2023 e recante ‘disposizioni urgenti in materia di transito e sosta nelle acque territoriali delle navi non governative impegnate nelle operazioni di soccorso in mare’. L’unità, nello specifico, dopo aver effettuato il primo intervento di soccorso in acque libiche, contravveniva all’impartita disposizione di raggiungere il porto di Trapani, dirigendo invece su altre 3 unità di migranti sulle quali, peraltro, sotto il coordinamento di IMRCC Roma, stavano già dirigendo in soccorso i mezzi della Guardia Costiera italiana“. > “Le disposizioni impartite alla nave Ong, valutate le sue piccole dimensioni, erano altresì tese a evitare che la stessa prendesse a bordo un numero di persone tale da pregiudicare sia la sua sicurezza che quella delle imbarcazioni di migranti a cui avrebbe prestato soccorso. La non osservanza delle disposizioni, inoltre, ha rallentato il raggiungimento di un porto di sbarco per i migranti salvati nel primo intervento, inizialmente individuato in quello di Trapani dal Ministero dell’Interno, inducendo così a ridisegnare la decisione in modo da far convergere l’arrivo della Ong, per motivi di sicurezza e di urgenza, nel porto di Lampedusa, già peraltro sollecitato dai numerosi arrivi di migranti di questi ultimi giorni“. > “A tale comportamento che già di per sé complicava il delicato lavoro di coordinamento dei soccorsi – si legge ancora – si sommavano le continue chiamate dei mezzi aerei ONG che hanno sovraccaricato i sistemi di comunicazione del centro nazionale di coordinamento dei soccorsi, sovrapponendosi e duplicando le segnalazioni dei già presenti assetti aerei dello Stato. Allo stesso modo, l’episodio citato da ONG Ocean Viking e riferito ai presunti spari della guardia costiera libica avvenuto in area SAR ricadente nella responsabilità di un altro centro di coordinamento nazionale, non veniva riportato al Paese di bandiera come sarebbe previsto dalle norme sulla sicurezza della navigazione, bensì al centro di coordinamento italiano, in modo continuativo, finendo anche questo col sovraccaricare l’IMRCC in momenti particolarmente intensivi di soccorsi in atto. Ciononostante, in 48 ore sono state soccorse, sotto il coordinamento della Guardia Costiera Italiana, oltre 3300 persone a bordo di 58 imbarcazioni”.