7 ms·

I'm going to miss really simple cars with barely any electronics in them.

bruce343434 4y ago
In theory, electric cars are simpler. Fewer moving parts and all that. But _modern_ cars are full of electronic doodads. Theoretically there is nothing stopping someone from developing a barebones electric car.
- throw_pm23 4y ago
  Theoretically no, but practically the big manufacturers lobby to label smart electronics as safety features, so if you want to sell a simple car, you face the uphill battle of explaining why it scores low on safety ratings (which are mostly a checkbox-list of smart features).
  - WJW 4y ago
    TBH, things like airbags, power steering and automatic traction control do make the car safer.
- uc_banana 4y ago
  Once you've used the necessary amounts of up-to-date electronic design techniques and components to build the battery management, motor controller and charging systems in your "barebones" EV, adding some multicolour lighting and a touchscreen is a tiny step. A milkfloat is nearest thing to a "barebones" EV.
skrebbel 4y ago
An electrical engine is a lot simpler than an internal combustion engine. I don’t think that EV implies software overkill. I hope that some brands will carve out a niche for simple EVs with real buttons and low “smartness”.
- poooogles 4y ago
  >I don’t think that EV implies software overkill. I hope that some brands will carve out a niche for simple EVs with real buttons and low “smartness”. Look to the TV sector, you can't buy a non 'smart' TV any more. I highly doubt it will be profitable for a non 'smart' electric car. I guess the closest we have right now is the Citroen Ami?
- yourusername 4y ago
  I hope so but i'm not optimistic. I can't think of any electric car that doesn't have a horrific UI full of "smart" features i don't want and would pay to not have. Even a car that doesn't require subscriptions to turn on basic features seems like a very optimistic ask.
  - andrewshadura 4y ago
    When I rented a VW e-Up, it barely had any smartness in it.
- throw_pm23 4y ago
  It will be difficult as big manufacturers will lobby to relabel smart features as safety features which will make it hard to sell a car with a low safety rating. (This is already happening, squeezing out the makers of cheaper cars.)
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  > I don’t think that EV implies software overkill. I hope that some brands will carve out a niche for simple EVs with real buttons and low “smartness”. As of now EVs are synonymous with software overkill. Hence your hope that some brands WILL carve out a niche.
- ben-schaaf 4y ago
  The WV e-up! was stupid simple; with the non-touch screen only being used for the parking camera and radio.
- cptaj 4y ago
helsinkiandrew 4y ago
Are there any new petroleum cars that are really simple and have little electronics - perhaps the ultra cheap, mostly Chinese city cars - but car manufacturers have been putting more and more electronics into vehicles long before electric cars
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  No. ICE engines vehicles used to be much simpler but they have gotten increasingly more complicated to meat emissions standards.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- replygirl 4y ago
  miata
djaychela 4y ago
You'd be talking 1970s or before, then? Anything from the 80s onwards has had plenty of electronics present. And generally been more reliable for it. Ftr I've owned and fixed hundreds of cars, and modern ones are much more reliable and need less servicing.
- WJW 4y ago
  Even pre-1970, it's hard to think of any combustion engine being "really simple" tbh. They may be more repairable if you have access to spare parts or a machine shop, but constructing a new engine from scratch (or even a mid-level rebuild) is decidedly non-trivial even if you don't have any electronics at all.
- jjav 4y ago
  > You'd be talking 1970s or before, then? Anything from the 80s onwards has had plenty of electronics present. No, it's completely different in the last ~decade. Certainly cars back into the 80s (some brands into the 70s) have electronics but they are completely independent and simple systems. You had individual wiring to every device and for the most part (usually 100%) independent circuits for every component. This makes things very easy to diagnose with just a volt meter, easy to replace and even easy to completely rip out some subcomponent if you didn't care for it (or it became too expensive to repair). All the rest of the car was independent of that one component so everything keeps working. This simple contruction is true into the 00s for most brands/models. Current cars have integrated everything into a common bus and everything is controlled and monitored by opaque software that can't be diagnosed or fixed outside of factory tools. For example even something as trivial as replacing the starting battery on newer BMWs (possibly other brands) requires special electronic tooling to reprogram the computer. That's just the tip of the iceberg, nearly nothing can be done in newer cars without access to factory electronic tools since everything is interconnected and hidden behind proprietary software control. I have cars from the 80s, 90s and mid-00s and all of them require nothing more than a voltmeter to diagnose electrical problems. That's no longer true with new cars. > modern ones are much more reliable and need less servicing That's mostly true. But once they do require servicing, it's becoming nearly impossible to DIY so you are at the mercy of how long the factory cares to support your model. I used to own a mid-00s (so not even that complex by current comparison) BMW and electrical glitches from the interconnected fragile electrical system were common. Even though I normally do everything in all my cars, there was nothing I could do without access to factory diagnostic tools so had to take it to the shop. Eventually the technicians there basically gave up, diagnosing things was so difficult that even with all the factory tooling they estimated tens of thousands in labor just to figure out the problems. I had to sell the car for scrap value since it was unfixable. Give me simple cars from the 80s and 90s, I can keep those running forever myself.
UncleMeat 4y ago
If you buy a car with a gas engine in 2035 it'll be stuffed full of electronics too. This is independent of EV vs gas. If you want to keep driving your 2011 vehicle because it doesn't have a bunch of garbage in the infotainment system then you'll still be able to do that.
marban 4y ago
Agreed. Just bought a '89 Porsche — 100% buttons, couple of relays, one LCD clock. And actually a pure joy to drive, and repair.
globular-toast 4y ago
Me too, but they were unsustainable. I really think when it comes to technology we need to think about sustainability first. We can't just look at something and think "ooh shiny", or "ooh convenient". We need to first ask about sustainability and trash it if it doesn't cross the first hurdle. It's like our grandparents discovered an endless supply of food, built their lives around it and forgot how to farm. Our parents realised the supply wasn't actually endless, but it wouldn't run out in their lifetime so they just kept eating and becoming more dependent. They worked out how to eat less of the food, but they just ended up eating the same and getting fatter instead. We were born into a world utterly dependent on it but critically aware that it's running out and we need to stop. Sure, I'll miss the food too. Who wouldn't? But it's not coming back.

In theory, electric cars are simpler. Fewer moving parts and all that. But _modern_ cars are full of electronic doodads. Theoretically there is nothing stopping someone from developing a barebones electric car.

throw_pm23 4y ago
Theoretically no, but practically the big manufacturers lobby to label smart electronics as safety features, so if you want to sell a simple car, you face the uphill battle of explaining why it scores low on safety ratings (which are mostly a checkbox-list of smart features).
- WJW 4y ago
  TBH, things like airbags, power steering and automatic traction control do make the car safer.
uc_banana 4y ago
Once you've used the necessary amounts of up-to-date electronic design techniques and components to build the battery management, motor controller and charging systems in your "barebones" EV, adding some multicolour lighting and a touchscreen is a tiny step. A milkfloat is nearest thing to a "barebones" EV.

skrebbel 4y ago

An electrical engine is a lot simpler than an internal combustion engine. I don’t think that EV implies software overkill. I hope that some brands will carve out a niche for simple EVs with real buttons and low “smartness”.

poooogles 4y ago
>I don’t think that EV implies software overkill. I hope that some brands will carve out a niche for simple EVs with real buttons and low “smartness”. Look to the TV sector, you can't buy a non 'smart' TV any more. I highly doubt it will be profitable for a non 'smart' electric car. I guess the closest we have right now is the Citroen Ami?
yourusername 4y ago
I hope so but i'm not optimistic. I can't think of any electric car that doesn't have a horrific UI full of "smart" features i don't want and would pay to not have. Even a car that doesn't require subscriptions to turn on basic features seems like a very optimistic ask.
- andrewshadura 4y ago
  When I rented a VW e-Up, it barely had any smartness in it.
throw_pm23 4y ago
It will be difficult as big manufacturers will lobby to relabel smart features as safety features which will make it hard to sell a car with a low safety rating. (This is already happening, squeezing out the makers of cheaper cars.)
nonethewiser 4y ago
> I don’t think that EV implies software overkill. I hope that some brands will carve out a niche for simple EVs with real buttons and low “smartness”. As of now EVs are synonymous with software overkill. Hence your hope that some brands WILL carve out a niche.
ben-schaaf 4y ago
The WV e-up! was stupid simple; with the non-touch screen only being used for the parking camera and radio.
cptaj 4y ago

helsinkiandrew 4y ago

Are there any new petroleum cars that are really simple and have little electronics - perhaps the ultra cheap, mostly Chinese city cars - but car manufacturers have been putting more and more electronics into vehicles long before electric cars

nonethewiser 4y ago
No. ICE engines vehicles used to be much simpler but they have gotten increasingly more complicated to meat emissions standards.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
replygirl 4y ago
miata

djaychela 4y ago

You'd be talking 1970s or before, then? Anything from the 80s onwards has had plenty of electronics present. And generally been more reliable for it. Ftr I've owned and fixed hundreds of cars, and modern ones are much more reliable and need less servicing.

WJW 4y ago
Even pre-1970, it's hard to think of any combustion engine being "really simple" tbh. They may be more repairable if you have access to spare parts or a machine shop, but constructing a new engine from scratch (or even a mid-level rebuild) is decidedly non-trivial even if you don't have any electronics at all.
jjav 4y ago
> You'd be talking 1970s or before, then? Anything from the 80s onwards has had plenty of electronics present. No, it's completely different in the last ~decade. Certainly cars back into the 80s (some brands into the 70s) have electronics but they are completely independent and simple systems. You had individual wiring to every device and for the most part (usually 100%) independent circuits for every component. This makes things very easy to diagnose with just a volt meter, easy to replace and even easy to completely rip out some subcomponent if you didn't care for it (or it became too expensive to repair). All the rest of the car was independent of that one component so everything keeps working. This simple contruction is true into the 00s for most brands/models. Current cars have integrated everything into a common bus and everything is controlled and monitored by opaque software that can't be diagnosed or fixed outside of factory tools. For example even something as trivial as replacing the starting battery on newer BMWs (possibly other brands) requires special electronic tooling to reprogram the computer. That's just the tip of the iceberg, nearly nothing can be done in newer cars without access to factory electronic tools since everything is interconnected and hidden behind proprietary software control. I have cars from the 80s, 90s and mid-00s and all of them require nothing more than a voltmeter to diagnose electrical problems. That's no longer true with new cars. > modern ones are much more reliable and need less servicing That's mostly true. But once they do require servicing, it's becoming nearly impossible to DIY so you are at the mercy of how long the factory cares to support your model. I used to own a mid-00s (so not even that complex by current comparison) BMW and electrical glitches from the interconnected fragile electrical system were common. Even though I normally do everything in all my cars, there was nothing I could do without access to factory diagnostic tools so had to take it to the shop. Eventually the technicians there basically gave up, diagnosing things was so difficult that even with all the factory tooling they estimated tens of thousands in labor just to figure out the problems. I had to sell the car for scrap value since it was unfixable. Give me simple cars from the 80s and 90s, I can keep those running forever myself.

UncleMeat 4y ago

If you buy a car with a gas engine in 2035 it'll be stuffed full of electronics too. This is independent of EV vs gas. If you want to keep driving your 2011 vehicle because it doesn't have a bunch of garbage in the infotainment system then you'll still be able to do that.

marban 4y ago

Agreed. Just bought a '89 Porsche — 100% buttons, couple of relays, one LCD clock. And actually a pure joy to drive, and repair.

globular-toast 4y ago

Me too, but they were unsustainable. I really think when it comes to technology we need to think about sustainability first. We can't just look at something and think "ooh shiny", or "ooh convenient". We need to first ask about sustainability and trash it if it doesn't cross the first hurdle. It's like our grandparents discovered an endless supply of food, built their lives around it and forgot how to farm. Our parents realised the supply wasn't actually endless, but it wouldn't run out in their lifetime so they just kept eating and becoming more dependent. They worked out how to eat less of the food, but they just ended up eating the same and getting fatter instead. We were born into a world utterly dependent on it but critically aware that it's running out and we need to stop. Sure, I'll miss the food too. Who wouldn't? But it's not coming back.