5 ms·

The theory of Price Discrimination, simple stuff, for anyone who isn't up on the econs 101 jargon, looks like it's here: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/p

by harry8 4y ago

The theory of Price Discrimination, simple stuff, for anyone who isn't up on the econs 101 jargon, looks like it's here: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/price_discrimination.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/price_discrimination.as... Everyone including you will do it whenever you can when selling. The logical place surveillance capitalism is going isn't pretty. Will regulation protect consumers or will Goog, FB, Apple etc capture a good amount of everyone's consumer surplus? Would mass consumer outrage influence regulators more than lobbying cash? I don't have any answers, if don't think much of the questions it'd be interesting to know why you think that way.

htag 4y ago
This type of price discrimination isn't powered by surveillance capitalism. Using the example in the first answer on the stackexchange, this is nothing more than selling the same ticket at a different price to someone walking up to a United counter in USA compared to someone walking up to a United counter in AU. Surveillance capitalism powering price discrimination sounds scary, but there seems to be few examples of ML powered price discrimination. Currently we are paying massive amounts for simple price discrimination. You can save a ton of money (for things in general) by searching for discounts, booking ahead of time, accepting slower shipment, waiting for off-season/off-peak, buying in bulk, haggling, etc.
- harry8 4y ago
  > This type of price discrimination isn't powered by surveillance capitalism Ok in this particular example of price discrimination it isn't. Yet. Sure. Now imagine you wan't to power it buy surveillance capitalism to get more of that surplus and current laws and norms are no object. What would that look like? How close do you think we will get to that? How fast? [1] Think vendors will keep much of that captured surplus in the face of Goog, FB, Apple, whatever market power? [1] I'd just refuse to buy any ticket unless your country of birth and residency of your family was known, which holidays you celebrate. By which I mean make dis counts readily available on that basis (with exclusions) to really slug anyone going home for high holidays, for example. Frame it as a discount, whatever. So that's one way it might go. Can you think of how this is going to work for insurance? Health insurance? What else would really supercharge revenue using techniques like this?
  - htag 4y ago
    I am not a lawyer, and I am unsure, but I am under the impression there are limits on which variables health insurance companies can vary their prices on. I think health insurance is another example of classic price discrimination costing normal people money. Hospitals will charge different amounts of money for the same medical procedure and the same level of car depending on which insurance is getting billed, or if no insurance is billed. This is caused by thousands of accountants negotiating in advanced. I am actually not worried about Surveillance Capitalism powered Price Discrimination in it's current state. It is probably happening already, but not to a wide degree. A few things would make me worry, and they are also mostly things that are opportunities for price discrimination. * There is no cash option. There is no resell option. There are no advertised prices. * I must disclose personal information to do business, before the prices are revealed. You can link your travel agent website with social media, but you can also guest checkout from a public library. * Comparative shopping is hard/impossible. Ideally the information age actually empowers consumers on this one. This doesn't stop companies from varying prices based on individuals, but it does put downward pressure on prices. Cartels and price collusion can negate this.
- autoexec 4y ago
  > This type of price discrimination isn't powered by surveillance capitalism. Yes it is. That's why people who book flights using an Apple computer will pay more (https://www.imore.com/mac-users-might-be-paying-more-pc-users-airline-tickets-and-more https://www.imore.com/mac-users-might-be-paying-more-pc-user...) they're pricing based on their best assumptions about your income level. Their dream is that they'll be able to just use facial recognition, or grab your ID from your cell phone, or force you to sign up for an account with them so they have all the info they need to pull up your credit history, yearly income, the size of your household, a list of your recent purchases, and whatever else they can get from data brokers all just to make better guesses about your wealth and how much money they can squeeze out of you rather than just using your IP address or your useragent, and that's in the works (https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/11/17/a-special-price-just-for-you/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/11/17/a-special-p...) but until they can shift public perception away from viewing that sort of thing as being discriminatory and exploitative, or until everyone in an industry is doing it too (airlines and hotels) it's still seen as too risky. see https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41272-019-00224-3 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41272-019-00224-3
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    >Yes it is. That's why people who book flights using an Apple computer will pay more they're pricing based on their best assumptions about your income level. There is no claim of this on the article you linked and no proof of it. It says “could be”, which is unsubstantiated.
    - autoexec 4y ago
      That's fair I guess, try this one: https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/mac-users-pay-more-than-pc-users-says-orbitz/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/mac-users-pa...
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        That is from 10+ years ago, and it was a travel agent (Orbitz.com) charging more for hotel nights (increasing their cut). The hotel itself never charged Mac users more, and I have never seen or heard of Hyatt/Marriott/Hilton/etc websites charging based on which operating system they think the query is coming from. I have yet to see proof that airlines or hotels or car rental companies directly put out different prices to customers based on the device being used, or even anything else. What they do do to price discriminate is sell via opaque pricing, e.g. https://www.opaquetravel.com/ https://www.opaquetravel.com/ Or discounted volume pricing for travel agents who promise to pay a minimum and then the travel agent is on the hook for organizing a group of travelers. But those are both different than price discriminating based on Windows/Mac.
cwalv 4y ago
> if don't think much of the questions it'd be interesting to know why you think that way. Mostly because you don't have to buy any of this. If it's that unfair, figure a better/cheaper way to do it yourself, otherwise quit complaining that the poor ppl have it so much better
- harry8 4y ago
  It ain't the poor, it's those who have the biggest barrier to going anywhere else who will get slugged, and slugged hard. That segment of the market will pay loads. Flights from New Zealand to the Pacific Islands for Christmas are legendary. Pacific islanders in NZ do not constitute the rich. You don't care whether you go to the Solomon Islands for christmas or just after? Much cheaper. But what if there are empty seats on the plane you could have sold to regular holiday makers at regular prices? Airline ticketing is one example of this - we can take the principle to so many places! Uber can do it! Anywhere the vendor has market power against a market segment they (yes me and you as vendors) want to exploit it. When the vendor know what's in your hand, your "I could walk" bluff is called and you get smashed. Every business including yours and mine wants to charge every single customer as much as they will possibly pay. Capture consumer surplus. Surveillance capitalism can help here.
- autoexec 4y ago
  > Mostly because you don't have to buy any of this. Maybe nobody has to buy an airline ticket, but I'm not convinced that's true. Worse, is that while you can look at the places where we know this pricing model is being used right now and think it won't impact you, the goal for many years has been to push this to everything you buy everywhere. The only thing holding them back is that most consumers feel that this is abusive and discriminatory. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41272-019-00224-3 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41272-019-00224-3 Still, it's being tested all the time, including in grocery stores. They want to use your personal income level, your personal buying habits, all of the information they can get about you, and use it to set a different price for you than the next person, but also to offer some goods and services only for certain people, hold certain policies only for certain people etc. Right now, you might be able to dismiss this when it comes to airline tickets or hotel bookings, but what we're heading toward is a caste system, several really, where "you don't have to buy any of this" will need to apply to food and toilet paper and "your kind aren't allowed to buy this" is right around the corner.
autoexec 4y ago
You're wrong that everyone would do it. I wouldn't. Lots of people find the practice to be dangerous and abhorrent, but you're right that corporations are salivating at the thought of the profits they could pull in by further exploiting our personal data and you're right that once they start only regulations will stop them. This is absolutely one of those situations where we should really start thinking about what kind of world we want to live in and where we are actually headed.

by harry8 4y ago

htag 4y ago

This type of price discrimination isn't powered by surveillance capitalism. Using the example in the first answer on the stackexchange, this is nothing more than selling the same ticket at a different price to someone walking up to a United counter in USA compared to someone walking up to a United counter in AU. Surveillance capitalism powering price discrimination sounds scary, but there seems to be few examples of ML powered price discrimination. Currently we are paying massive amounts for simple price discrimination. You can save a ton of money (for things in general) by searching for discounts, booking ahead of time, accepting slower shipment, waiting for off-season/off-peak, buying in bulk, haggling, etc.

harry8 4y ago
> This type of price discrimination isn't powered by surveillance capitalism Ok in this particular example of price discrimination it isn't. Yet. Sure. Now imagine you wan't to power it buy surveillance capitalism to get more of that surplus and current laws and norms are no object. What would that look like? How close do you think we will get to that? How fast? [1] Think vendors will keep much of that captured surplus in the face of Goog, FB, Apple, whatever market power? [1] I'd just refuse to buy any ticket unless your country of birth and residency of your family was known, which holidays you celebrate. By which I mean make dis counts readily available on that basis (with exclusions) to really slug anyone going home for high holidays, for example. Frame it as a discount, whatever. So that's one way it might go. Can you think of how this is going to work for insurance? Health insurance? What else would really supercharge revenue using techniques like this?
- htag 4y ago
  I am not a lawyer, and I am unsure, but I am under the impression there are limits on which variables health insurance companies can vary their prices on. I think health insurance is another example of classic price discrimination costing normal people money. Hospitals will charge different amounts of money for the same medical procedure and the same level of car depending on which insurance is getting billed, or if no insurance is billed. This is caused by thousands of accountants negotiating in advanced. I am actually not worried about Surveillance Capitalism powered Price Discrimination in it's current state. It is probably happening already, but not to a wide degree. A few things would make me worry, and they are also mostly things that are opportunities for price discrimination. * There is no cash option. There is no resell option. There are no advertised prices. * I must disclose personal information to do business, before the prices are revealed. You can link your travel agent website with social media, but you can also guest checkout from a public library. * Comparative shopping is hard/impossible. Ideally the information age actually empowers consumers on this one. This doesn't stop companies from varying prices based on individuals, but it does put downward pressure on prices. Cartels and price collusion can negate this.
autoexec 4y ago
> This type of price discrimination isn't powered by surveillance capitalism. Yes it is. That's why people who book flights using an Apple computer will pay more (https://www.imore.com/mac-users-might-be-paying-more-pc-users-airline-tickets-and-more https://www.imore.com/mac-users-might-be-paying-more-pc-user...) they're pricing based on their best assumptions about your income level. Their dream is that they'll be able to just use facial recognition, or grab your ID from your cell phone, or force you to sign up for an account with them so they have all the info they need to pull up your credit history, yearly income, the size of your household, a list of your recent purchases, and whatever else they can get from data brokers all just to make better guesses about your wealth and how much money they can squeeze out of you rather than just using your IP address or your useragent, and that's in the works (https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/11/17/a-special-price-just-for-you/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/11/17/a-special-p...) but until they can shift public perception away from viewing that sort of thing as being discriminatory and exploitative, or until everyone in an industry is doing it too (airlines and hotels) it's still seen as too risky. see https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41272-019-00224-3 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41272-019-00224-3
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  >Yes it is. That's why people who book flights using an Apple computer will pay more they're pricing based on their best assumptions about your income level. There is no claim of this on the article you linked and no proof of it. It says “could be”, which is unsubstantiated.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    That's fair I guess, try this one: https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/mac-users-pay-more-than-pc-users-says-orbitz/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/mac-users-pa...
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      That is from 10+ years ago, and it was a travel agent (Orbitz.com) charging more for hotel nights (increasing their cut). The hotel itself never charged Mac users more, and I have never seen or heard of Hyatt/Marriott/Hilton/etc websites charging based on which operating system they think the query is coming from. I have yet to see proof that airlines or hotels or car rental companies directly put out different prices to customers based on the device being used, or even anything else. What they do do to price discriminate is sell via opaque pricing, e.g. https://www.opaquetravel.com/ https://www.opaquetravel.com/ Or discounted volume pricing for travel agents who promise to pay a minimum and then the travel agent is on the hook for organizing a group of travelers. But those are both different than price discriminating based on Windows/Mac.

cwalv 4y ago

> if don't think much of the questions it'd be interesting to know why you think that way. Mostly because you don't have to buy any of this. If it's that unfair, figure a better/cheaper way to do it yourself, otherwise quit complaining that the poor ppl have it so much better

harry8 4y ago
It ain't the poor, it's those who have the biggest barrier to going anywhere else who will get slugged, and slugged hard. That segment of the market will pay loads. Flights from New Zealand to the Pacific Islands for Christmas are legendary. Pacific islanders in NZ do not constitute the rich. You don't care whether you go to the Solomon Islands for christmas or just after? Much cheaper. But what if there are empty seats on the plane you could have sold to regular holiday makers at regular prices? Airline ticketing is one example of this - we can take the principle to so many places! Uber can do it! Anywhere the vendor has market power against a market segment they (yes me and you as vendors) want to exploit it. When the vendor know what's in your hand, your "I could walk" bluff is called and you get smashed. Every business including yours and mine wants to charge every single customer as much as they will possibly pay. Capture consumer surplus. Surveillance capitalism can help here.
autoexec 4y ago
> Mostly because you don't have to buy any of this. Maybe nobody has to buy an airline ticket, but I'm not convinced that's true. Worse, is that while you can look at the places where we know this pricing model is being used right now and think it won't impact you, the goal for many years has been to push this to everything you buy everywhere. The only thing holding them back is that most consumers feel that this is abusive and discriminatory. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41272-019-00224-3 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41272-019-00224-3 Still, it's being tested all the time, including in grocery stores. They want to use your personal income level, your personal buying habits, all of the information they can get about you, and use it to set a different price for you than the next person, but also to offer some goods and services only for certain people, hold certain policies only for certain people etc. Right now, you might be able to dismiss this when it comes to airline tickets or hotel bookings, but what we're heading toward is a caste system, several really, where "you don't have to buy any of this" will need to apply to food and toilet paper and "your kind aren't allowed to buy this" is right around the corner.

autoexec 4y ago

You're wrong that everyone would do it. I wouldn't. Lots of people find the practice to be dangerous and abhorrent, but you're right that corporations are salivating at the thought of the profits they could pull in by further exploiting our personal data and you're right that once they start only regulations will stop them. This is absolutely one of those situations where we should really start thinking about what kind of world we want to live in and where we are actually headed.