7 ms·

transition is something for which you are presented the full pros and cons, and given the freedom to choose whether or not you want the effects of it; being bor

transition is something for which you are presented the full pros and cons, and given the freedom to choose whether or not you want the effects of it; being born into an amish family is something you have no freedom to choose, and given the things the comment you're replying to is describing as occurring, i think it makes perfect sense to say that the latter is more ethically questionable

dinkly 4y ago
[flagged]
- froh 4y ago
  this is false. https://www.wpath.org/soc8 https://www.wpath.org/soc8
  - dinkly 4y ago
    Sadly, this is not false. Here's a paper on "gender-affirming" mastectomies from researchers in the US. The cohort studied includes girls as young as 12 years old at the time of surgery: https://journals.lww.com/annalsplasticsurgery/Abstract/2022/05004/Gender_Affirming_Mastectomy_Trends_and_Surgical.4.aspx https://journals.lww.com/annalsplasticsurgery/Abstract/2022/... Also here's a piece from Reuters about rates of "gender-affirming treatment" in children, taken from health insurance data - the section for "top surgery" includes girls as young as 13: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-tran...
    - froh 4y ago
      outliers. that's not the recommended treatment. hormone blockers are. the right wing debate is however to criminalize the recommended treatment.
      - dinkly 4y ago
        Now that I have provided evidence, do you concede that you were incorrect, and that it is a true statement of fact that girls as young as 12 years old are having their breasts sliced off because they say they want to be boys?
        froh 4y ago
        again: this is not the norm and not recommended practice. so you are reiterating the exceptional, pathological outlier corner case of medical malpractice. and you do that in a context which uses this strawman to "justify" hindering and prohibiting well established treatment for severe and medically diagnosed adolescent gender dysphoria, specifically puberty blockers and after a sufficient period of time also cross gender hormones. and adolescents can consent to that, yes. why do you argue against this medical best practice like you do?
        dinkly 4y ago
        Are you aware that shortly after the initial publication of SOC8, WPATH issued a set of changes which removed all lower age limits that were previously recommended, including for irreversible surgeries? See https://web.archive.org/web/20220919141138/https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/26895269.2022.2125695 https://web.archive.org/web/20220919141138/https://www.tandf... for the detail of their correction notice.
        froh 4y ago
        glad you're bringing this up the wpath soc is a very accessible document with a very nuanced and careful approach to treatment of adolescents and children, it explicitly deals with the potential fragility of such decisions - and the cases which are very stable early on and benefit from early access, and how to discern them. they didn't take out the brains or caution. they just took out the inflexible and useless rigid age barriers. its really worth a read, chapter 6 is the one relevant here https://www.wpath.org/publications/soc https://www.wpath.org/publications/soc
- LBJsPNS 4y ago
  Bullshit. I'm sorry if this violates HN protocols. But this is an outright lie and needs to be treated as one.
  - dinkly 4y ago
    It is not a lie, this is not bullshit. Please see my other comment with links to evidence of this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35348789 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35348789
- dang 4y ago
  "Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity." https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=primarily%20test%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
monero-xmr 4y ago
[flagged]
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  What lack of religion? It's just a different god. Take the DEI deans' refusal to participate in the debate on DEI at MIT. > There is a sense that this is an issue that is kind of above being debated That is basically the definition of 'sacred.' https://www.thecollegefix.com/a-debate-on-dei-will-be-held-at-mit-the-universitys-dei-deans-refuse-to-participate/ https://www.thecollegefix.com/a-debate-on-dei-will-be-held-a...
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  > I think the decrease in religion and lack of faith in God is a major reason for the pain in modern Western society I'm never going to agree with you about that. But had you phrased it is "a decline in obvious purpose and a loss of a sense of community (which may once have had religion at its center)", we could maybe find some common ground.
- RangerScience 4y ago
  Well, you know, there's a reason opiates are used as a pain killer, but that doesn't mean it's their lack that's causing the pain.
snvzz 4y ago
>transition is something for which you are presented the full pros and cons What you describe is how it should be. Unfortunately, that's not how it is[0]. But this is very uncomfortable[1], so we look the other way. 0. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O3MzPeomqs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O3MzPeomqs 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCH-bUFR3WM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCH-bUFR3WM
- asherah 4y ago
  respectfully, i have no intentions of listening to jordan b peterson, in the same way i have no intentions of reading a stormfront article. skimming the transcript, it looks like this person was presented with the full list of effects - is this not what i described? the ground reality is that if you go to your local planned parenthood or family doctor they will tell you all of the side effects you will experience on hrt; i have 3 different packets of information from doing this, all of which stress the ways in which my body will change on hrt i have no anecdotal proof yet for surgery but i can only assume you get told about possible complications that are reasonably expected
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - skrebbel 4y ago
    I think your comment would've been stronger without the Stormfront reference. I agree that Peterson is a tiresome character but he's not a Nazi. Putting him in the same box as Stormfront is like putting Bernie in the same box as Stalin.
    - Kbelicius 4y ago
      GP did not put Peterson in a box labeled "Nazis". He put him in a box labeled "people whose opinion I do not care to hear" and stormfront happens to be there too. For all we know Bernie and Stalin could be in that box too.
      - 4y ago
t344344 4y ago
Exactly! Therapist would never push something like that onto mentally ill person with schizophrenia or autism! And child can give fully informed consent, just like with circumcision!

dinkly 4y ago

[flagged]

froh 4y ago
this is false. https://www.wpath.org/soc8 https://www.wpath.org/soc8
- dinkly 4y ago
  Sadly, this is not false. Here's a paper on "gender-affirming" mastectomies from researchers in the US. The cohort studied includes girls as young as 12 years old at the time of surgery: https://journals.lww.com/annalsplasticsurgery/Abstract/2022/05004/Gender_Affirming_Mastectomy_Trends_and_Surgical.4.aspx https://journals.lww.com/annalsplasticsurgery/Abstract/2022/... Also here's a piece from Reuters about rates of "gender-affirming treatment" in children, taken from health insurance data - the section for "top surgery" includes girls as young as 13: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-tran...
  - froh 4y ago
    outliers. that's not the recommended treatment. hormone blockers are. the right wing debate is however to criminalize the recommended treatment.
    - dinkly 4y ago
      Now that I have provided evidence, do you concede that you were incorrect, and that it is a true statement of fact that girls as young as 12 years old are having their breasts sliced off because they say they want to be boys?
      - froh 4y ago
        again: this is not the norm and not recommended practice. so you are reiterating the exceptional, pathological outlier corner case of medical malpractice. and you do that in a context which uses this strawman to "justify" hindering and prohibiting well established treatment for severe and medically diagnosed adolescent gender dysphoria, specifically puberty blockers and after a sufficient period of time also cross gender hormones. and adolescents can consent to that, yes. why do you argue against this medical best practice like you do?
        dinkly 4y ago
        Are you aware that shortly after the initial publication of SOC8, WPATH issued a set of changes which removed all lower age limits that were previously recommended, including for irreversible surgeries? See https://web.archive.org/web/20220919141138/https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/26895269.2022.2125695 https://web.archive.org/web/20220919141138/https://www.tandf... for the detail of their correction notice.
        froh 4y ago
        glad you're bringing this up the wpath soc is a very accessible document with a very nuanced and careful approach to treatment of adolescents and children, it explicitly deals with the potential fragility of such decisions - and the cases which are very stable early on and benefit from early access, and how to discern them. they didn't take out the brains or caution. they just took out the inflexible and useless rigid age barriers. its really worth a read, chapter 6 is the one relevant here https://www.wpath.org/publications/soc https://www.wpath.org/publications/soc
LBJsPNS 4y ago
Bullshit. I'm sorry if this violates HN protocols. But this is an outright lie and needs to be treated as one.
- dinkly 4y ago
  It is not a lie, this is not bullshit. Please see my other comment with links to evidence of this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35348789 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35348789
dang 4y ago
"Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity." https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=primarily%20test%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

monero-xmr 4y ago

[flagged]

nonethewiser 4y ago
What lack of religion? It's just a different god. Take the DEI deans' refusal to participate in the debate on DEI at MIT. > There is a sense that this is an issue that is kind of above being debated That is basically the definition of 'sacred.' https://www.thecollegefix.com/a-debate-on-dei-will-be-held-at-mit-the-universitys-dei-deans-refuse-to-participate/ https://www.thecollegefix.com/a-debate-on-dei-will-be-held-a...
PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
> I think the decrease in religion and lack of faith in God is a major reason for the pain in modern Western society I'm never going to agree with you about that. But had you phrased it is "a decline in obvious purpose and a loss of a sense of community (which may once have had religion at its center)", we could maybe find some common ground.
RangerScience 4y ago
Well, you know, there's a reason opiates are used as a pain killer, but that doesn't mean it's their lack that's causing the pain.

snvzz 4y ago

>transition is something for which you are presented the full pros and cons What you describe is how it should be. Unfortunately, that's not how it is[0]. But this is very uncomfortable[1], so we look the other way. 0. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O3MzPeomqs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O3MzPeomqs 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCH-bUFR3WM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCH-bUFR3WM

asherah 4y ago
respectfully, i have no intentions of listening to jordan b peterson, in the same way i have no intentions of reading a stormfront article. skimming the transcript, it looks like this person was presented with the full list of effects - is this not what i described? the ground reality is that if you go to your local planned parenthood or family doctor they will tell you all of the side effects you will experience on hrt; i have 3 different packets of information from doing this, all of which stress the ways in which my body will change on hrt i have no anecdotal proof yet for surgery but i can only assume you get told about possible complications that are reasonably expected
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- skrebbel 4y ago
  I think your comment would've been stronger without the Stormfront reference. I agree that Peterson is a tiresome character but he's not a Nazi. Putting him in the same box as Stormfront is like putting Bernie in the same box as Stalin.
  - Kbelicius 4y ago
    GP did not put Peterson in a box labeled "Nazis". He put him in a box labeled "people whose opinion I do not care to hear" and stormfront happens to be there too. For all we know Bernie and Stalin could be in that box too.
    - 4y ago

t344344 4y ago

Exactly! Therapist would never push something like that onto mentally ill person with schizophrenia or autism! And child can give fully informed consent, just like with circumcision!