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Without talking about WFH vs RTO, I have to comment about the “commute” and the attitudes towards it. Every article discussing this issue imagines the commute

Without talking about WFH vs RTO, I have to comment about the “commute” and the attitudes towards it. Every article discussing this issue imagines the commute to be a static, never changing situation as if it were a law of nature. IOW, even the idea of maybe improving transportation, and housing, so that people can live close to where offices would be located and/or improve transportation options so your commute isn’t a 30 min drive if you’re lucky, but could also be a comfortable and safe bike ride, easy bus transportation in a dedicated lane, or clean and modern subways, isn’t even considered. The real tragedy isn’t WFH vs RTO. The real tragedy is that Americans have built a country where stepping out of your home once a day is a miserable chore to be avoided at all costs if possible.

ModernMech 4y ago
In my opinion, my ideal walkable/livable community is the university town. It has everything you need in walking distance. Most people who work in the community live in the community. Public transportation is well-used, to the point cars are often outright forbidden. Lots of greenspace, with good wifi through the whole town. Well managed library and IT infrastructure. Very inclusive and welcoming community, as they are arranged around the idea of incorporating new people into the community on a regular basis. I'm one of those lifers that went to college and never left, now entering my 5th year as a professor. That's a lie -- I had 3 years in industry, and I just hated it. I mean, the people were okay, but "the real world" seems to be a euphemism for having to put up with the shitty systems and communities that everyone else has to. But here's the thing (and sorry to rant for a minute), calling academia an "ivory tower" in contrast to the "real world" is an admission that we have to accept the shitty systems and communities past generations have built for us. Because with all of the craziness in the banking sector and tech sector lately, it's hard to convince me that academia is any more divorced from reality than other large industries out there that are trying to run the world. How is academia any more of an ivory tower than silicon valley? And aren't those silicon valley bankers and billionaires the ones who are trying to shape the world in their image, while crashing banks and laying off hundreds of thousands of people? To me, that is a dark tower, and one we should not be trying to emulate at a country scale; whereas my community, the places I walk, the people I work with every day, the relationships I build with them -- that's the real world. Or at least my world. /r Yes academia is a bubble and unique, but at the same time, that's what allows it to be a place where you can have the things you say you want. Is it sustainable? You know, probably not, but at the same time many of these communities are over a century old. I know my University has plans for sustainable growth for the next 100 years. There's surely still work to do to make such communities more sustainable, less costly to manage, and larger and more widespread. But still, the university town is a model that proves we can at least build walkable communities in America. They definitely exist!
- Vrondi 4y ago
  I am laughing hysterically at this from my university town with four campuses spread out over a hilly landscape, tons of traffic and limited public transportation schedules that would triple commute time for most workers. Things are set up to work for the irregular schedules of students, not professionals (even academic professionals). When I lived 1 mile from my office in town, I would bike instead of use the bus, because the bus didn't run on a schedule that would correspond to any of the 3 largest employers in town, catering to the schedules of students and senior citizens who need to get to mid morning/mid afternoon classes or shopping instead. I've seen university towns like you describe (or university areas of other towns), but that's not even close to universal, and many other university towns in my region are also very lacking in public transit.
- nradov 4y ago
  University towns are nice little "theme parks" for those who can afford them. In the real world we need things like ports, factories, and warehouses. I will not attempt to defend the bizarre excesses of the tech industry. But over a long enough time scale, tech companies have to either turn a profit or disappear so there is at least some grounding in objective reality. Whereas academia faces no such pressures, and many instructors teaching courses have never even worked outside that environment.
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    > But over a long enough time scale, tech companies have to either turn a profit or disappear so there is at least some grounding in objective reality. This is exactly what I'm talking about. The US Government subsidizes many industries, to the point where if those subsidies went away, those industries would not be profitable any longer (hence the subsidies). Yet, those industries, like say farming, are called the "real world" because they somehow I guess have a more objective interface with reality? It doesn't make sense. Well here's some objective reality: as a society, as with food, we understand we have to teach people, and there's no profit in that. On the other side, students demand results, and we give them, and earn a reputation for delivering. Colleges that don't deliver go under, and new colleges are formed all the time, so it's not even accurate that there are no forcing functions or grounding in reality. That some universities have been around for a century or more is a testament to their success in the marketplace, not evidence they are immune from market forces. And it's interesting that "profit" is always the measure used when one wants to prove that academia doesn't belong in this world. I mean, yeah, you're right. When you frame the world in terms of profit and loss, anything that makes a loss should just be done away with. Problem is then you end up in a world with no schools, hospitals, parks, community centers, museums, orchestras, art galleries, etc. In the real world, we need those things too.
throwaway22032 4y ago
WFH is still massive in countries that have all of this. I live 15-25 minutes from Central London via tube or cycle, so do loads of my friends. There are effectively zero in person companies despite this. People just mostly prefer to wake up 5 minutes before they clock on and work in their pyjamas. I don't get it, but I've accepted at this point that I'm just not going to.
techsupporter 4y ago
> The real tragedy is that Americans have built a country where stepping out of your home once a day is a miserable chore to be avoided at all costs if possible. This is exactly it for me. The job I've held for many years is in Seattle's city limits and my family has lived in Seattle for even longer. I intentionally looked for a job here because I gave up driving years ago, as did my wife. My children have never learned to drive or have a license. Meanwhile, many of my colleagues have moved to Auburn or Kent or Edmonds or Snohomish, insisting that it's not possible to raise a child in the city (my kids would beg to disagree) or seeking the "American Dream" of a standalone house. But every single one of them complained about the hours of their lives they were giving away in exchange for that. I think it's fine to build transit to the suburbs. It doesn't have to be light rail, though there's a well-known rail bias, but we've proven that frequent express buses from regional centers can work. Commuting is a drag, that's why I don't do it. (My employer also went to open plan spaces for technical and administrative staff before the pandemic. As we are a medical group, doctors still had their own doors, of course. Now, we have sold one office building and given up the lease on another. Technical and admin staff are fully remote but can use a company-paid WeWork account if we like. Medical staff are in the remaining office building and our patient care locations.)
- Arainach 4y ago
  >we've proven that frequent express buses from regional centers can work Who's "we"? Seattle's express busses, at least outside the downtown core, have been a joke for a long time. Every half hour at absolute peak for ST routes like the 545/522 and stopping hours before bars and nightlife close so good luck getting home. Admittedly they were better than the awful suburban alternatives - for a long time the fastest bus route from my eastside house to Microsoft was to take one express bus 45-60 minutes to downtown Seattle and another one 30-45 minutes east to Redmond because the other north/south connections are that bad. I wouldn't call that proof that they can work. And of course that's ignoring the current light rail split. If you don't want to go somewhere directly on the light rail line (let's say South Lake Union, since we're commuting) you could previously take an bus from Woodinville, Kirkland, or Redmond into downtown Seattle and with a single transfer get where you want to go. Post-light rail good luck. The 522 will drop you off in Northgate, where you can walk a few blocks to light rail, ride a few stops, walk a few more blocks, and catch another bus. 1h43min with 2 transfers at peak commuting hours or a 28min drive. If that's success I hope never to see failure.
tremon 4y ago
stepping out of your home once a day is a miserable chore You mean stepping out of your home early in the morning, and not returning to your home until dusk? I step out of my home at least four times each day, and I love it.
- twelve40 4y ago
  Good for you! now can you imagine that there are others living in this country maybe in a different situation? I hate these comments that say "my life is great, i can't see what these people are whining about"
  - Vrondi 4y ago
    Can you imagine that there are people in this country who, (even though they are lucky enough to live where there is public transport) don't want to triple their commute time by using public transport?
    - throw-ru-938 4y ago
      Can you imagine that public transit does not have to triple your commute time, as rhaway84773 is saying?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - Kranar 4y ago
    And I tend to dislike the opposite, comments that suggest that people living in one of the wealthiest and freest nation ever have no control or autonomy over their lives and just have to live out a miserable existence. It's good to hear different points of view.
    - hiddencost 4y ago
      I constantly blows my mind that people living in the USA think that they're doing well; by most metrics the USA is a middle-of-the-pack country by current standards of living (including freedom).
philwelch 4y ago
You’d have to fix a lot more than housing and transportation. You’d also have to address crime, mental health, drugs, and public disorder. Living within walking distance of the office is nice. Having to dodge needles, human feces, psychotics, and periodic rioting is not. I used to be an urbanist, too. Lived in Seattle and didn’t own a car for many years. But there are some real problems in our cities, and virtually no urbanists are serious about solving them. In fact, many will make fun of you for bringing them up. (Not that it’s easy to tell given the equal lack of progress on housing and transportation.) Politics is a grotesque dance between the demagogues and the mob. A sane human being’s best interest is probably to just avoid being stepped on. But it’s not all bad. The commute between the bedroom and the home office is pretty great.
kyleyeats 4y ago
in other words
umeshunni 4y ago
> so that people can live close to where offices would be located What happens to those of us who have spouses, their work locations, children, their schools and so on to worry about?
- tonfreed 4y ago
  For what I paid for my spacious 3 bedroom house for my wife and I, I would have been lucky to find a 2 bedroom apartment close to the office. Combine that with the constant disruptions to public transport here and it's very common for it to take 2 hours to get into work in the morning. I would just quit if they mandated RTO, unless they're going to pay me enough to afford a similar standard of living close to the office I'm not interested at all.
- re-thc 4y ago
  According to a few claiming to be managers / business owners in another discussion those things don't provide business value. They pay top dollar for their people to deliver. i.e. they don't care.
rs999gti 4y ago
I'll turn your question around, why don't these hip companies relocate to the suburbs? There's plenty of abandoned malls and shopping centers that could become offices, such as what Rackspace did. Instead these companies locate downtown, where parking is crazy, crime is high, tons of crowds, and everything is expensive. The suburb model has been done by other companies that aren't hip start ups or tech. Maybe it's time for these businesses to relocate?
- themadturk 4y ago
  My employer did this by splitting their headquarters into four physical offices. No need to convince people to go to a single suburb. In fact, the original downtown office is still there. For me this resulted in a seven minute drive to and from work, instead of a 60-90 minute bus ride each way. Meetings are via Zoom, just as they were during the pandemic.
- rcpt 4y ago
  Doesn't work. You then have to drive 30min back into town for sales meetings. Or what if one parent's employer moves to a different suburb? Fordlandia was already tried. Business clusters are the way to stay competitive.
- marssaxman 4y ago
  Good luck convincing all of your employees and customers to relocate into the same suburb.
- shorts_theory 4y ago
  This is basically what all of the south Bay Area is.
_8j50 4y ago
> The real tragedy is that Americans have built a country Hold up right there, the length of the commute is not a problem. A 5min walk also means 20min prep, absolute best case you spend 30min/day & 10h month on this. And that is just one problem. Tech is so frustrating. You have real solved problems and people resist tech and you have things like being forced to use apps for everything and people are ok with that. There is the interruptions, inevitable social conflicts, mental health (and physical), and so much more. Even attending a meeting takes much more time and energy. Even when i try to be lazy i end up working many times more when wfh than office. I am convinced managers are either stuck on old metrics or have no idea how to remotely manage their people for wfh to be an issue. If I go to the office i will not work when i get home or in weekends (too tired) but since covid I've been working whenever to meet objectives. Also, no more driving. Good for environment I thought!? And no more being pulled over by cops, accidents,etc... WFH should be legally mandated if you ask me
kps 4y ago
> so that people can live close to where offices would be Last time I moved, I moved to a place five minutes' walk from my work. That was four jobs ago.
- eweise 4y ago
  Exactly. You probably live in the same house for 20 years while you're raising kids. How long do you stay at a job?
  - throw-ru-938 4y ago
    When you're a renter in a market without much regulation (like here in the ex-USSR), your homes probably last less than your jobs, kids or no kids.

ModernMech 4y ago

In my opinion, my ideal walkable/livable community is the university town. It has everything you need in walking distance. Most people who work in the community live in the community. Public transportation is well-used, to the point cars are often outright forbidden. Lots of greenspace, with good wifi through the whole town. Well managed library and IT infrastructure. Very inclusive and welcoming community, as they are arranged around the idea of incorporating new people into the community on a regular basis. I'm one of those lifers that went to college and never left, now entering my 5th year as a professor. That's a lie -- I had 3 years in industry, and I just hated it. I mean, the people were okay, but "the real world" seems to be a euphemism for having to put up with the shitty systems and communities that everyone else has to. But here's the thing (and sorry to rant for a minute), calling academia an "ivory tower" in contrast to the "real world" is an admission that we have to accept the shitty systems and communities past generations have built for us. Because with all of the craziness in the banking sector and tech sector lately, it's hard to convince me that academia is any more divorced from reality than other large industries out there that are trying to run the world. How is academia any more of an ivory tower than silicon valley? And aren't those silicon valley bankers and billionaires the ones who are trying to shape the world in their image, while crashing banks and laying off hundreds of thousands of people? To me, that is a dark tower, and one we should not be trying to emulate at a country scale; whereas my community, the places I walk, the people I work with every day, the relationships I build with them -- that's the real world. Or at least my world. /r Yes academia is a bubble and unique, but at the same time, that's what allows it to be a place where you can have the things you say you want. Is it sustainable? You know, probably not, but at the same time many of these communities are over a century old. I know my University has plans for sustainable growth for the next 100 years. There's surely still work to do to make such communities more sustainable, less costly to manage, and larger and more widespread. But still, the university town is a model that proves we can at least build walkable communities in America. They definitely exist!

Vrondi 4y ago
I am laughing hysterically at this from my university town with four campuses spread out over a hilly landscape, tons of traffic and limited public transportation schedules that would triple commute time for most workers. Things are set up to work for the irregular schedules of students, not professionals (even academic professionals). When I lived 1 mile from my office in town, I would bike instead of use the bus, because the bus didn't run on a schedule that would correspond to any of the 3 largest employers in town, catering to the schedules of students and senior citizens who need to get to mid morning/mid afternoon classes or shopping instead. I've seen university towns like you describe (or university areas of other towns), but that's not even close to universal, and many other university towns in my region are also very lacking in public transit.
nradov 4y ago
University towns are nice little "theme parks" for those who can afford them. In the real world we need things like ports, factories, and warehouses. I will not attempt to defend the bizarre excesses of the tech industry. But over a long enough time scale, tech companies have to either turn a profit or disappear so there is at least some grounding in objective reality. Whereas academia faces no such pressures, and many instructors teaching courses have never even worked outside that environment.
- ModernMech 4y ago
  > But over a long enough time scale, tech companies have to either turn a profit or disappear so there is at least some grounding in objective reality. This is exactly what I'm talking about. The US Government subsidizes many industries, to the point where if those subsidies went away, those industries would not be profitable any longer (hence the subsidies). Yet, those industries, like say farming, are called the "real world" because they somehow I guess have a more objective interface with reality? It doesn't make sense. Well here's some objective reality: as a society, as with food, we understand we have to teach people, and there's no profit in that. On the other side, students demand results, and we give them, and earn a reputation for delivering. Colleges that don't deliver go under, and new colleges are formed all the time, so it's not even accurate that there are no forcing functions or grounding in reality. That some universities have been around for a century or more is a testament to their success in the marketplace, not evidence they are immune from market forces. And it's interesting that "profit" is always the measure used when one wants to prove that academia doesn't belong in this world. I mean, yeah, you're right. When you frame the world in terms of profit and loss, anything that makes a loss should just be done away with. Problem is then you end up in a world with no schools, hospitals, parks, community centers, museums, orchestras, art galleries, etc. In the real world, we need those things too.

throwaway22032 4y ago

WFH is still massive in countries that have all of this. I live 15-25 minutes from Central London via tube or cycle, so do loads of my friends. There are effectively zero in person companies despite this. People just mostly prefer to wake up 5 minutes before they clock on and work in their pyjamas. I don't get it, but I've accepted at this point that I'm just not going to.

techsupporter 4y ago

> The real tragedy is that Americans have built a country where stepping out of your home once a day is a miserable chore to be avoided at all costs if possible. This is exactly it for me. The job I've held for many years is in Seattle's city limits and my family has lived in Seattle for even longer. I intentionally looked for a job here because I gave up driving years ago, as did my wife. My children have never learned to drive or have a license. Meanwhile, many of my colleagues have moved to Auburn or Kent or Edmonds or Snohomish, insisting that it's not possible to raise a child in the city (my kids would beg to disagree) or seeking the "American Dream" of a standalone house. But every single one of them complained about the hours of their lives they were giving away in exchange for that. I think it's fine to build transit to the suburbs. It doesn't have to be light rail, though there's a well-known rail bias, but we've proven that frequent express buses from regional centers can work. Commuting is a drag, that's why I don't do it. (My employer also went to open plan spaces for technical and administrative staff before the pandemic. As we are a medical group, doctors still had their own doors, of course. Now, we have sold one office building and given up the lease on another. Technical and admin staff are fully remote but can use a company-paid WeWork account if we like. Medical staff are in the remaining office building and our patient care locations.)

Arainach 4y ago
>we've proven that frequent express buses from regional centers can work Who's "we"? Seattle's express busses, at least outside the downtown core, have been a joke for a long time. Every half hour at absolute peak for ST routes like the 545/522 and stopping hours before bars and nightlife close so good luck getting home. Admittedly they were better than the awful suburban alternatives - for a long time the fastest bus route from my eastside house to Microsoft was to take one express bus 45-60 minutes to downtown Seattle and another one 30-45 minutes east to Redmond because the other north/south connections are that bad. I wouldn't call that proof that they can work. And of course that's ignoring the current light rail split. If you don't want to go somewhere directly on the light rail line (let's say South Lake Union, since we're commuting) you could previously take an bus from Woodinville, Kirkland, or Redmond into downtown Seattle and with a single transfer get where you want to go. Post-light rail good luck. The 522 will drop you off in Northgate, where you can walk a few blocks to light rail, ride a few stops, walk a few more blocks, and catch another bus. 1h43min with 2 transfers at peak commuting hours or a 28min drive. If that's success I hope never to see failure.

tremon 4y ago

stepping out of your home once a day is a miserable chore You mean stepping out of your home early in the morning, and not returning to your home until dusk? I step out of my home at least four times each day, and I love it.

twelve40 4y ago
Good for you! now can you imagine that there are others living in this country maybe in a different situation? I hate these comments that say "my life is great, i can't see what these people are whining about"
- Vrondi 4y ago
  Can you imagine that there are people in this country who, (even though they are lucky enough to live where there is public transport) don't want to triple their commute time by using public transport?
  - throw-ru-938 4y ago
    Can you imagine that public transit does not have to triple your commute time, as rhaway84773 is saying?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Kranar 4y ago
  And I tend to dislike the opposite, comments that suggest that people living in one of the wealthiest and freest nation ever have no control or autonomy over their lives and just have to live out a miserable existence. It's good to hear different points of view.
  - hiddencost 4y ago
    I constantly blows my mind that people living in the USA think that they're doing well; by most metrics the USA is a middle-of-the-pack country by current standards of living (including freedom).

philwelch 4y ago

You’d have to fix a lot more than housing and transportation. You’d also have to address crime, mental health, drugs, and public disorder. Living within walking distance of the office is nice. Having to dodge needles, human feces, psychotics, and periodic rioting is not. I used to be an urbanist, too. Lived in Seattle and didn’t own a car for many years. But there are some real problems in our cities, and virtually no urbanists are serious about solving them. In fact, many will make fun of you for bringing them up. (Not that it’s easy to tell given the equal lack of progress on housing and transportation.) Politics is a grotesque dance between the demagogues and the mob. A sane human being’s best interest is probably to just avoid being stepped on. But it’s not all bad. The commute between the bedroom and the home office is pretty great.

kyleyeats 4y ago

in other words

umeshunni 4y ago

> so that people can live close to where offices would be located What happens to those of us who have spouses, their work locations, children, their schools and so on to worry about?

tonfreed 4y ago
For what I paid for my spacious 3 bedroom house for my wife and I, I would have been lucky to find a 2 bedroom apartment close to the office. Combine that with the constant disruptions to public transport here and it's very common for it to take 2 hours to get into work in the morning. I would just quit if they mandated RTO, unless they're going to pay me enough to afford a similar standard of living close to the office I'm not interested at all.
re-thc 4y ago
According to a few claiming to be managers / business owners in another discussion those things don't provide business value. They pay top dollar for their people to deliver. i.e. they don't care.

rs999gti 4y ago

I'll turn your question around, why don't these hip companies relocate to the suburbs? There's plenty of abandoned malls and shopping centers that could become offices, such as what Rackspace did. Instead these companies locate downtown, where parking is crazy, crime is high, tons of crowds, and everything is expensive. The suburb model has been done by other companies that aren't hip start ups or tech. Maybe it's time for these businesses to relocate?

themadturk 4y ago
My employer did this by splitting their headquarters into four physical offices. No need to convince people to go to a single suburb. In fact, the original downtown office is still there. For me this resulted in a seven minute drive to and from work, instead of a 60-90 minute bus ride each way. Meetings are via Zoom, just as they were during the pandemic.
rcpt 4y ago
Doesn't work. You then have to drive 30min back into town for sales meetings. Or what if one parent's employer moves to a different suburb? Fordlandia was already tried. Business clusters are the way to stay competitive.
marssaxman 4y ago
Good luck convincing all of your employees and customers to relocate into the same suburb.
shorts_theory 4y ago
This is basically what all of the south Bay Area is.

_8j50 4y ago

> The real tragedy is that Americans have built a country Hold up right there, the length of the commute is not a problem. A 5min walk also means 20min prep, absolute best case you spend 30min/day & 10h month on this. And that is just one problem. Tech is so frustrating. You have real solved problems and people resist tech and you have things like being forced to use apps for everything and people are ok with that. There is the interruptions, inevitable social conflicts, mental health (and physical), and so much more. Even attending a meeting takes much more time and energy. Even when i try to be lazy i end up working many times more when wfh than office. I am convinced managers are either stuck on old metrics or have no idea how to remotely manage their people for wfh to be an issue. If I go to the office i will not work when i get home or in weekends (too tired) but since covid I've been working whenever to meet objectives. Also, no more driving. Good for environment I thought!? And no more being pulled over by cops, accidents,etc... WFH should be legally mandated if you ask me

kps 4y ago

> so that people can live close to where offices would be Last time I moved, I moved to a place five minutes' walk from my work. That was four jobs ago.

eweise 4y ago
Exactly. You probably live in the same house for 20 years while you're raising kids. How long do you stay at a job?
- throw-ru-938 4y ago
  When you're a renter in a market without much regulation (like here in the ex-USSR), your homes probably last less than your jobs, kids or no kids.