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> Decent Espresso showed us that boiler machines for home use are a dead end, because they have too much thermal mass for rapid switching between brewing and st

> Decent Espresso showed us that boiler machines for home use are a dead end, because they have too much thermal mass for rapid switching between brewing and steaming. I will hasard that most espresso machine owners are like me, just like espresso and never steam. I can count on one hand the number of time I used my Silvia steam wand in the past five years. I think regular milk drinks are mostly an American thing.

thot_experiment 4y ago
I grew up in eastern europe and I've been drinking lattes since I was little. (though I didn't know they were called lattes until much later, milk was just part of coffee for me) My Silvia steams a few lattes every day. ymmv Reading the rest of this thread it seems like I should look into moving to Australia for broader coffee compatibility with my peers.
klausa 4y ago
I would be very surprised if that was the case; you'd see much more machines out there that omit the steaming wand entirely. While _I_ mostly drink espressos when making coffee for myself, I think overall I made more flat whites for my wife and any friends that come over, then I did shots just for myself on my machine.
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  If you have two machines with very similar price and quality, but one was espresso-only, and the other had a steamer, what do you think the people that only drink espressos would buy? Zero marginal cost features have some very unusual economics.
  - nightski 4y ago
    They exist. If I was going that route I'd probably get a Flair 58. But I love a steam wand.
dkasper 4y ago
Absolutely not. Lattes and cappuccinos were invented in Italy after all.
- mastazi 4y ago
  > Lattes and cappuccinos were invented in Italy This is a commonly held belief, I'm Italian and I would like to clarify a bit. - I have worked at a bar (1) in Italy and more than 90% of the coffee drinks ordered during any given day were single shot espressos. Cappuccino orders however were not uncommon in the morning. - Cappuccino was invented in Austria, however it was popularised in Italy and it still is very popular to this day. It is consumed only in the first half of the morning, for the rest of the day Italians prefer to drink exclusively espresso shots. - The drink that is known in the Anglosphere as "latte" doesn't really exist in Italy except in some touristy areas, normally, if you ask for a "latte" in an Italian bar, they'll give you a glass of milk. We have however two drinks that are similar to what you call "latte": - Caffè latte, which is similar to the French café au lait but the coffee is made in a moka pot. This is usually consumed at home. - In bars you can order a "latte macchiato" which is similar to what you call "latte" but the coffee is added at the end, on top of the milk, and it is much weaker than a latte (this is reflected by the name "latte macchiato" which means "stained milk" i.e. all milk with just a dash of coffee). PS Latte macchiato is not to be confused with caffè macchiato which is what is known internationally simply as "macchiato" i.e. almost all coffee with just a dash of milk. (1) An Italian "bar" roughly corresponds to what English speaking people refer to as "cafe" although it will also serve alcoholic drinks. Actual cafes are not popular in Italy and they are only found in touristy spots.
  - fennecfoxy 4y ago
    A shot of espresso and a toasted almond granita are honestly the best way to start the day.
  - cpach 4y ago
    So far I’ve only visited Italy once, but your account rhymes well with what I’ve read about Italian coffee culture. One thing I’m curious about: Is ristretto and lungo popular in Italy? Or is that also mostly for tourist spots?
ace2358 4y ago
Hello from Australia! Not only are most coffee orders with milk, Aussies drink a load of milk at home. Like I used to easily smash a litre of milk a day (cereal, coffee, tea, just drinking it from the fridge). I now don’t drink milk at all and have black coffee at home and out and I am not the norm.
crazygringo 4y ago
I use the steam wand every single morning. It's a cappuccino to start the day, then regular espresso after that. Cappuccinos are quite popular at breakfast in Italy, which is where espresso is from. I don't know what makes you think it has anything to do with America.
- valarauko 4y ago
  Context of the comment was in modding machines. Are modders more likely to be American or Italian?
  - carlob 4y ago
    These 5k espresso machines (or a DYI project where you spend the equivalent in time) don't really make sense in a country where an average salary is 1.5k and the average coffee is 1.
boomskats 4y ago
In case you're looking for advice: I went from being a daily HX machine (rocket) user to a Cafelat Robot at the beginning of the pandemic & haven't looked back. It has zero warm-up time and I make better espresso with it more consistently than I ever could with the e61. I'm not sure I agree with you about 'most espresso machine owners', but if you do only care about the spro, I can highly recommend the manual approach.
lostlogin 4y ago
New Zealand and Australia have a lot of milk users.
RandomWorker 4y ago
Hi there, I’m also a Silvia owner. I steam first then pull a shot. Easier to go up to steam then come down.

thot_experiment 4y ago

I grew up in eastern europe and I've been drinking lattes since I was little. (though I didn't know they were called lattes until much later, milk was just part of coffee for me) My Silvia steams a few lattes every day. ymmv Reading the rest of this thread it seems like I should look into moving to Australia for broader coffee compatibility with my peers.

klausa 4y ago

I would be very surprised if that was the case; you'd see much more machines out there that omit the steaming wand entirely. While _I_ mostly drink espressos when making coffee for myself, I think overall I made more flat whites for my wife and any friends that come over, then I did shots just for myself on my machine.

marcosdumay 4y ago
If you have two machines with very similar price and quality, but one was espresso-only, and the other had a steamer, what do you think the people that only drink espressos would buy? Zero marginal cost features have some very unusual economics.
- nightski 4y ago
  They exist. If I was going that route I'd probably get a Flair 58. But I love a steam wand.

dkasper 4y ago

Absolutely not. Lattes and cappuccinos were invented in Italy after all.

mastazi 4y ago
> Lattes and cappuccinos were invented in Italy This is a commonly held belief, I'm Italian and I would like to clarify a bit. - I have worked at a bar (1) in Italy and more than 90% of the coffee drinks ordered during any given day were single shot espressos. Cappuccino orders however were not uncommon in the morning. - Cappuccino was invented in Austria, however it was popularised in Italy and it still is very popular to this day. It is consumed only in the first half of the morning, for the rest of the day Italians prefer to drink exclusively espresso shots. - The drink that is known in the Anglosphere as "latte" doesn't really exist in Italy except in some touristy areas, normally, if you ask for a "latte" in an Italian bar, they'll give you a glass of milk. We have however two drinks that are similar to what you call "latte": - Caffè latte, which is similar to the French café au lait but the coffee is made in a moka pot. This is usually consumed at home. - In bars you can order a "latte macchiato" which is similar to what you call "latte" but the coffee is added at the end, on top of the milk, and it is much weaker than a latte (this is reflected by the name "latte macchiato" which means "stained milk" i.e. all milk with just a dash of coffee). PS Latte macchiato is not to be confused with caffè macchiato which is what is known internationally simply as "macchiato" i.e. almost all coffee with just a dash of milk. (1) An Italian "bar" roughly corresponds to what English speaking people refer to as "cafe" although it will also serve alcoholic drinks. Actual cafes are not popular in Italy and they are only found in touristy spots.
- fennecfoxy 4y ago
  A shot of espresso and a toasted almond granita are honestly the best way to start the day.
- cpach 4y ago
  So far I’ve only visited Italy once, but your account rhymes well with what I’ve read about Italian coffee culture. One thing I’m curious about: Is ristretto and lungo popular in Italy? Or is that also mostly for tourist spots?

ace2358 4y ago

Hello from Australia! Not only are most coffee orders with milk, Aussies drink a load of milk at home. Like I used to easily smash a litre of milk a day (cereal, coffee, tea, just drinking it from the fridge). I now don’t drink milk at all and have black coffee at home and out and I am not the norm.

crazygringo 4y ago

I use the steam wand every single morning. It's a cappuccino to start the day, then regular espresso after that. Cappuccinos are quite popular at breakfast in Italy, which is where espresso is from. I don't know what makes you think it has anything to do with America.

valarauko 4y ago
Context of the comment was in modding machines. Are modders more likely to be American or Italian?
- carlob 4y ago
  These 5k espresso machines (or a DYI project where you spend the equivalent in time) don't really make sense in a country where an average salary is 1.5k and the average coffee is 1.

boomskats 4y ago

In case you're looking for advice: I went from being a daily HX machine (rocket) user to a Cafelat Robot at the beginning of the pandemic & haven't looked back. It has zero warm-up time and I make better espresso with it more consistently than I ever could with the e61. I'm not sure I agree with you about 'most espresso machine owners', but if you do only care about the spro, I can highly recommend the manual approach.

lostlogin 4y ago

New Zealand and Australia have a lot of milk users.

RandomWorker 4y ago

Hi there, I’m also a Silvia owner. I steam first then pull a shot. Easier to go up to steam then come down.