5 ms·

I understand how a different type of search is beneficial for classical music, but why isn't this just a feature of Apple Music?

niek_pas 4y ago
I think (based on zero insider knowledge) that's a UI decision. Cluttering up an app most people use to search for Ed Sheeran or w/e with data attributes like 'conductor', 'orchestra', 'composer', etc. — all of which are meaningless to 'most people' — makes the app less usable for most people (including myself, when I'm not listening to classical). The 0.5% of people who actually want these features can just download this app.
- whywhywhywhy 4y ago
  Still doesn’t seem like something that needs to exist. They literally could just have a classical section with these features in the base Music.app. Calling it now this app will be quietly discontinued by 2025. Doesn’t justify the engineering overhead for a different meta data grouping/filtering. None of this sounds anywhere near as complicated as people are making it out to be.
  - Veen 4y ago
    > None of this sounds anywhere near as complicated as people are making it out to be If that's true, why does every mainstream music app do such a terrible job with classical musical?
    - whywhywhywhy 4y ago
      That doesn’t mean it needs to be an entirely separate executable. You can just have a different filter view and search control.
      - Veen 4y ago
        It's a rebranded version of an app Apple acquired. Presumably they thought that was a more elegant solution than shoehorning classical into an interface designed for pop music.
  - throwanem 4y ago
    It's not just metadata. Search is very different as well, because you're looking for different things in different ways. Display is different too, for the same reason. So is the entire concept of what constitutes a work, which breaks shuffle, just for a start. I've been growing and maintaining a collection of classical music for ten years now, which means I've been trying for ten years to solve this problem with tools designed for the same use case as Apple Music. If it were as easy as you claim, then by now I would have solved it at least well enough that taking a physical CD off a physical rack and putting it in a physical player never felt like the more convenient option. If the app's discontinued in a couple of years, it won't be because it never made sense to build, especially given that I'm sure they're reusing most of both the frontend and backend for Apple Music as it exists today. It'll be because they're addressing one of the world's pickiest audiences, and not succeeding in getting enough right enough of the time - on that score I wish them the best of luck; on every other, I don't think I need to, not least because they might well succeed in selling me an Apple Music subscription with this.
    - goolz 4y ago
      Sure but could you not just write a different search controller to handle the needs of a more specific search? I have written many search controllers with, Meilisearch for example, that could handle myriad constraints and parameters. What makes this so hard that you need to abstract it out to a completely new app? I am just struggling to find a need to have a separate app, I guess UI/UX perhaps but I still echo the same fear as the parent commenter. I am sure Apple has the money to support it, and while I love classical music, I am not downloading another app just to consume it.
      - throwanem 4y ago
        Sure. A different search controller, which needs a different query view to handle the different fields it filters on, which needs a different result view to surface the different parts of metadata that only apply to this use case...you end up adding significant feature work to the app so that it can use the new search logic you "just" added to the backend, and you have still only solved one narrow aspect of this surprisingly different use case. As I said before, I've spent a decade trying to solve this problem with the same kinds of approaches you're advocating here - that is, using tooling built for general music. That I haven't succeeded doesn't necessarily mean much, but how likely do you think it is that Apple's product and engineering teams didn't try the same before deciding they needed to ship a whole new app about it?
  - pwinnski 4y ago
    Going out on a limb here, but I think you probably don't spend a lot of time listening to classical music. The reaction of nearly everyone who does is cautious optimism, because we know this is a very hard problem that companies and products consistently get wrong. Possible because they think something like "none of this sounds anywhere near as complicated as people are making it out to be."
F30 4y ago
There was a nice explanation here: https://twitter.com/jessiechar/status/1634361684960870400 https://twitter.com/jessiechar/status/1634361684960870400
- wink 4y ago
  That's indeed a very nice explanation but I think it's wrong to completely discard pop music with its covers. You can have the the problem, but usually only on a title level, not on an album level - so the metadata thing can be true as well. On the other hand, as someone not listening to a lot of classical music, it's an interesting problem for sure, but as I mostly drag the mp3 folder onto foobar2000... I don't think I get the "problem" part of the problem, maybe I would if I used the likes of spotify more :P
achow 4y ago
Gleaning from app description [1] it is perhaps because it is just not a music player, but (roughly put) a combination of Wikipedia and classical music repository/player. One of the AppStore image shows the 'Wiki' part of the player: https://is4-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/PurpleSource126/v4/c3/5d/d1/c35dd17a-0b01-a8c5-d7a1-e08e62aa64a5/d416b680-d201-4281-9f37-16ab7dc106f8_Presto-iPhone6p5-SydC-USEN-Wrapper2.png/460x0w.webp https://is4-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/PurpleSource126/v4/... ----The AppStore Description----- Get the app designed specifically for classical music. Available to Apple Music subscribers at no additional cost. Instantly find any recording in the world’s largest classical music catalog with search built for the genre. Enjoy the highest audio quality available (up to 192 kHz/24-bit Hi-Res Lossless) and hear classical favorites like never before in spatial audio, all with zero ads. Apple Music Classical also makes it easy for beginners to get acquainted with the genre thanks to hundreds of Essentials playlists, insightful composer biographies, deep-dive guides for many key works, and intuitive browsing features. The Ultimate Classical Experience • Get unlimited access to the world’s largest classical music catalog (over 5 million tracks) with everything from new releases to celebrated masterpieces, plus thousands of exclusive albums. • Search by composer, work, conductor, or even catalog number, and find specific recordings instantly. • Listen in the highest audio quality (up to 192 kHz/24 bit Hi-Res Lossless) and enjoy thousands of recordings in immersive spatial audio with Dolby Atmos. • Benefit from complete and accurate metadata to make sure you know exactly what and who you are playing. • Learn while you listen, with thousands of composer biographies, descriptions of key works, and more. • Listen using AirPlay on compatible wireless devices.
- manicennui 4y ago
  I read about the composer info, but I figured that part would not be any better than just using wikipedia or a more in-depth source. Seems like an afterthought to justify having another app.

niek_pas 4y ago

I think (based on zero insider knowledge) that's a UI decision. Cluttering up an app most people use to search for Ed Sheeran or w/e with data attributes like 'conductor', 'orchestra', 'composer', etc. — all of which are meaningless to 'most people' — makes the app less usable for most people (including myself, when I'm not listening to classical). The 0.5% of people who actually want these features can just download this app.

whywhywhywhy 4y ago
Still doesn’t seem like something that needs to exist. They literally could just have a classical section with these features in the base Music.app. Calling it now this app will be quietly discontinued by 2025. Doesn’t justify the engineering overhead for a different meta data grouping/filtering. None of this sounds anywhere near as complicated as people are making it out to be.
- Veen 4y ago
  > None of this sounds anywhere near as complicated as people are making it out to be If that's true, why does every mainstream music app do such a terrible job with classical musical?
  - whywhywhywhy 4y ago
    That doesn’t mean it needs to be an entirely separate executable. You can just have a different filter view and search control.
    - Veen 4y ago
      It's a rebranded version of an app Apple acquired. Presumably they thought that was a more elegant solution than shoehorning classical into an interface designed for pop music.
- throwanem 4y ago
  It's not just metadata. Search is very different as well, because you're looking for different things in different ways. Display is different too, for the same reason. So is the entire concept of what constitutes a work, which breaks shuffle, just for a start. I've been growing and maintaining a collection of classical music for ten years now, which means I've been trying for ten years to solve this problem with tools designed for the same use case as Apple Music. If it were as easy as you claim, then by now I would have solved it at least well enough that taking a physical CD off a physical rack and putting it in a physical player never felt like the more convenient option. If the app's discontinued in a couple of years, it won't be because it never made sense to build, especially given that I'm sure they're reusing most of both the frontend and backend for Apple Music as it exists today. It'll be because they're addressing one of the world's pickiest audiences, and not succeeding in getting enough right enough of the time - on that score I wish them the best of luck; on every other, I don't think I need to, not least because they might well succeed in selling me an Apple Music subscription with this.
  - goolz 4y ago
    Sure but could you not just write a different search controller to handle the needs of a more specific search? I have written many search controllers with, Meilisearch for example, that could handle myriad constraints and parameters. What makes this so hard that you need to abstract it out to a completely new app? I am just struggling to find a need to have a separate app, I guess UI/UX perhaps but I still echo the same fear as the parent commenter. I am sure Apple has the money to support it, and while I love classical music, I am not downloading another app just to consume it.
    - throwanem 4y ago
      Sure. A different search controller, which needs a different query view to handle the different fields it filters on, which needs a different result view to surface the different parts of metadata that only apply to this use case...you end up adding significant feature work to the app so that it can use the new search logic you "just" added to the backend, and you have still only solved one narrow aspect of this surprisingly different use case. As I said before, I've spent a decade trying to solve this problem with the same kinds of approaches you're advocating here - that is, using tooling built for general music. That I haven't succeeded doesn't necessarily mean much, but how likely do you think it is that Apple's product and engineering teams didn't try the same before deciding they needed to ship a whole new app about it?
- pwinnski 4y ago
  Going out on a limb here, but I think you probably don't spend a lot of time listening to classical music. The reaction of nearly everyone who does is cautious optimism, because we know this is a very hard problem that companies and products consistently get wrong. Possible because they think something like "none of this sounds anywhere near as complicated as people are making it out to be."

F30 4y ago

There was a nice explanation here: https://twitter.com/jessiechar/status/1634361684960870400 https://twitter.com/jessiechar/status/1634361684960870400

wink 4y ago
That's indeed a very nice explanation but I think it's wrong to completely discard pop music with its covers. You can have the the problem, but usually only on a title level, not on an album level - so the metadata thing can be true as well. On the other hand, as someone not listening to a lot of classical music, it's an interesting problem for sure, but as I mostly drag the mp3 folder onto foobar2000... I don't think I get the "problem" part of the problem, maybe I would if I used the likes of spotify more :P

achow 4y ago

Gleaning from app description [1] it is perhaps because it is just not a music player, but (roughly put) a combination of Wikipedia and classical music repository/player. One of the AppStore image shows the 'Wiki' part of the player: https://is4-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/PurpleSource126/v4/c3/5d/d1/c35dd17a-0b01-a8c5-d7a1-e08e62aa64a5/d416b680-d201-4281-9f37-16ab7dc106f8_Presto-iPhone6p5-SydC-USEN-Wrapper2.png/460x0w.webp https://is4-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/PurpleSource126/v4/... ----The AppStore Description----- Get the app designed specifically for classical music. Available to Apple Music subscribers at no additional cost. Instantly find any recording in the world’s largest classical music catalog with search built for the genre. Enjoy the highest audio quality available (up to 192 kHz/24-bit Hi-Res Lossless) and hear classical favorites like never before in spatial audio, all with zero ads. Apple Music Classical also makes it easy for beginners to get acquainted with the genre thanks to hundreds of Essentials playlists, insightful composer biographies, deep-dive guides for many key works, and intuitive browsing features. The Ultimate Classical Experience • Get unlimited access to the world’s largest classical music catalog (over 5 million tracks) with everything from new releases to celebrated masterpieces, plus thousands of exclusive albums. • Search by composer, work, conductor, or even catalog number, and find specific recordings instantly. • Listen in the highest audio quality (up to 192 kHz/24 bit Hi-Res Lossless) and enjoy thousands of recordings in immersive spatial audio with Dolby Atmos. • Benefit from complete and accurate metadata to make sure you know exactly what and who you are playing. • Learn while you listen, with thousands of composer biographies, descriptions of key works, and more. • Listen using AirPlay on compatible wireless devices.

manicennui 4y ago
I read about the composer info, but I figured that part would not be any better than just using wikipedia or a more in-depth source. Seems like an afterthought to justify having another app.