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As a mostly Linux user, I disagree. You simply can't replace Windows with Linux, at least not in the near future. Here is a page which summarize Linux shortcomi

by GuB-42 4y ago

As a mostly Linux user, I disagree. You simply can't replace Windows with Linux, at least not in the near future. Here is a page which summarize Linux shortcomings on the desktop: https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.t... One reason I think Linux (the kernel) would be a poor fit as a Windows replacement is the lack of a stable driver ABI. Linux is a monolithic kernel and all the drivers are expected to be part of it. It is a model that works because it fully embraces open source and community driven development. But not all manufacturers want that, first because they may not want to, open their code, or maybe they can't due to licensing arguments. It also means they need to invest significant resources into getting their code accepted by the community. The Windows driver model drove its rich hardware ecosystem. And if you think switching to a Linux driver model is going to be better, more free, think again, because we already have that with Android. Manufacturers fork the kernel and don't give much back to the community, just having them comply with the GPL is a struggle, and hardware support besides what is built into the phone is extremely limited, and because they don't work with the community, support for what's in the phone isn't carried on for more than a couple of years. And Windows really strong point is backwards compatibility. For example, I still use the "free" Photoshop CS2, 20 years later, works perfectly fine as a binary, I can run stuff that dates back from the 3.11 era, though as I understand it, it is mostly emulation at this point. This is part of the reason people use Windows. Microsoft tried to start clean with Windows RT, it was a failure. Apple can get away with it because they have complete control over their ecosystem, not Microsoft. Also, games.

bityard 4y ago
My experience with drivers on Linux and Windows has been just about the exact opposite from yours somehow. On Windows, you sometimes cannot even install the OS without hunting down the right drivers for some piece of hardware like the RAID controller, if you can even find them. Most drivers are authored by the hardware vendors whose main competency may not be writing kernel code, so driver quality tends to be extremely variable. The result is often drivers that just don't work well (which can look like a hardware issue, e.g. lack of performance) or crash the whole system. Not all Linux drivers are bug-free or feature-complete of course, but they tend to be reasonable or high quality due to the fact that they are written by and/or reviewed by the kernel community. Since all the drivers come with the kernel, the user generally has to do nothing to make their hardware work, it just does right out of the box. (Notable exceptions here are vendors of certain video cards and wifi chips who refuse to either write Linux drivers or supply the information needed to write them. So you do have to be somewhat careful to avoid those vendors when purchasing hardware.) I'm not a heavy gamer but my understanding is that a surprising number of popular games run just fine on Linux, thanks in part to the WINE community and the efforts of Valve.
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  I've always found the same, especially with audio equipment. On Linux it's always plug and play but on Windows I have to search and search for drivers from random websites.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > On Windows, you sometimes cannot even install the OS without hunting down the right drivers for some piece of hardware like the RAID controller, if you can even find them. This sounds like an experience from 2007. For the past 5 years, every piece of hardware I have ever bought, even from aliexpress, either works automatically or downloads a driver from windows uodate automatically. Coming back to linix, I want wifi 6 on my little linux server, and you have to hint down the few pieces of hardware that are compatiable.
  - green-eclipse 4y ago
    AliExpress hardware - that seems like an adventure. Curious, how has your overall experience been with the hardware you bought?
    - tracker1 4y ago
      Can't speak for GP, but for me, it's been relatively good, though delivery can take a long time. I'm using a router setup based on Ali Express purchased hardware (N6005, w/ 4x 2.5GbE intel ports running OpnSense). I've also used a few other intel mini pcs, since the pricing for RPi went insane from limited availability... 8gb RPi 4's were going for close to or over $180, adding in a case, drive, power and the intel mini pc options were about the same price, coming with storage, ram, case, etc.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  Can confirm. Even pre-deck release, Proton was already working amazingly well for almost anything I could throw at it ( I think the last issue I had was with Fallout 76, but that may have been fate saving me and for the best ). I have a dedicated VM to gaming with Windows on it, but, well, I don't have to use it as much anymore. Gaming mostly stopped being an issue for Linux ( for me, I am sure some issues persist ).
headsoup 4y ago
Games are minor issue now, to the point I buy new games on Steam without even checking compatibility, because they just work (or have the same problems Windows does anyway). Windows' strong point is basically some large software vendors just don't support Linux (Photoshop, finance software, etc). And of course corporate. For the day to day 'casual' user Linux is every bit as good. But, much as we all had to 'learn' Windows when we started using it, so there will be at least a little learning required for Linux.
- Zurrrrr 4y ago
  Exactly. As someone else pointed out some AAA titles don't work, and stuff with strong DRM/anti-cheat won't, but that's a minority of stuff at this point which will only dwindle further.
  - tracker1 4y ago
    Even then... with Vavle's efforts, a lot of DRM just takes a software update (mostly) to work in Proton/Linux. Not that a lot of the older AAA titles have been updated (or even recent ones). But it's consistently getting better. Will have to see which direction things head over time.
anthk 4y ago
Not Linux but you could do that with a BSD kernel perfectly. MS could implement Win32 on top of a BSD kernel in just weeks. Did you know Win32 runs as a subsystem on top of NT, as there are several more such as a subsystem for Unix?
- Zurrrrr 4y ago
  I know NT was designed with that in mind, but I don't think any type of unix subsystem is still maintained or would work these days. Although they could make it if they wanted it to. Then again maybe the modern NT no longer has that capability.
- DeathArrow 4y ago
  Support for the POSIX subsystem was deprecated some time ago according to Wikipedia: > Microsoft's first foray into achieving Unix-like compatibility on Windows began with the Microsoft POSIX Subsystem, superseded by Windows Services for UNIX via MKS/Interix, which was eventually deprecated with the release of Windows 8.1. There was also the possibility to run Linux software under Windows using coLinux.
- mcv 4y ago
  I've been thinking about something similar: wouldn't it be possible to create an OS that supports both Linux and Windows executables? (And maybe also Mac while we're at it.) Probably not based on the Linux kernel, but perhaps on a microkernel of some sort. But if it already works with BSD, that's even better.
consp 4y ago
> But not all manufacturers want that I have a device in our work environment which runs on kernel 2.6.32, last patch 2014. Can't update the machine because they do not update the drivers for that machine's hardware. The "open" (aka diy) driver runs on 4.9 at the latest and won't be updated any further despite the EOL being only this year. It's all about money, they just want you to buy the new hardware and cough up some extra cash for them.
bombolo 4y ago
> No plug-and-play support for a lot of input devices like joysticks and steering wheels. Many require editing of cryptic configuration files. If they are USB they just work. I imagine something that uses a serial port or the microphone jack to function as a joystick would need a special driver, yes.
trinsic2 4y ago
> Also, games If you're saying that games work better than windows that they do in Linux I'd have to say that this is changing very quickly. The proton layer is really changing the game on that. And it seems like many companies like Google will be moving to running applications in that environment. I could see The day where this leads to companies developing native applications for Linux.
DeathArrow 4y ago
> As a mostly Linux user, I disagree. You simply can't replace Windows with Linux, at least not in the near future. You can with emulation, compatibility layers, stuff like Wine and DXVK and using Linux drivers. Also lots of software ends up being written in top of Electron, so it makes easier. Will it be a great user experience? Probably not, but that's not the point. If it will win Microsoft some money, that would be enough of a reason. A better idea would be open sourcing Windows if that is legally possible for them to do.

by GuB-42 4y ago

bityard 4y ago

My experience with drivers on Linux and Windows has been just about the exact opposite from yours somehow. On Windows, you sometimes cannot even install the OS without hunting down the right drivers for some piece of hardware like the RAID controller, if you can even find them. Most drivers are authored by the hardware vendors whose main competency may not be writing kernel code, so driver quality tends to be extremely variable. The result is often drivers that just don't work well (which can look like a hardware issue, e.g. lack of performance) or crash the whole system. Not all Linux drivers are bug-free or feature-complete of course, but they tend to be reasonable or high quality due to the fact that they are written by and/or reviewed by the kernel community. Since all the drivers come with the kernel, the user generally has to do nothing to make their hardware work, it just does right out of the box. (Notable exceptions here are vendors of certain video cards and wifi chips who refuse to either write Linux drivers or supply the information needed to write them. So you do have to be somewhat careful to avoid those vendors when purchasing hardware.) I'm not a heavy gamer but my understanding is that a surprising number of popular games run just fine on Linux, thanks in part to the WINE community and the efforts of Valve.

AlecSchueler 4y ago
I've always found the same, especially with audio equipment. On Linux it's always plug and play but on Windows I have to search and search for drivers from random websites.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> On Windows, you sometimes cannot even install the OS without hunting down the right drivers for some piece of hardware like the RAID controller, if you can even find them. This sounds like an experience from 2007. For the past 5 years, every piece of hardware I have ever bought, even from aliexpress, either works automatically or downloads a driver from windows uodate automatically. Coming back to linix, I want wifi 6 on my little linux server, and you have to hint down the few pieces of hardware that are compatiable.
- green-eclipse 4y ago
  AliExpress hardware - that seems like an adventure. Curious, how has your overall experience been with the hardware you bought?
  - tracker1 4y ago
    Can't speak for GP, but for me, it's been relatively good, though delivery can take a long time. I'm using a router setup based on Ali Express purchased hardware (N6005, w/ 4x 2.5GbE intel ports running OpnSense). I've also used a few other intel mini pcs, since the pricing for RPi went insane from limited availability... 8gb RPi 4's were going for close to or over $180, adding in a case, drive, power and the intel mini pc options were about the same price, coming with storage, ram, case, etc.
A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
Can confirm. Even pre-deck release, Proton was already working amazingly well for almost anything I could throw at it ( I think the last issue I had was with Fallout 76, but that may have been fate saving me and for the best ). I have a dedicated VM to gaming with Windows on it, but, well, I don't have to use it as much anymore. Gaming mostly stopped being an issue for Linux ( for me, I am sure some issues persist ).

headsoup 4y ago

Games are minor issue now, to the point I buy new games on Steam without even checking compatibility, because they just work (or have the same problems Windows does anyway). Windows' strong point is basically some large software vendors just don't support Linux (Photoshop, finance software, etc). And of course corporate. For the day to day 'casual' user Linux is every bit as good. But, much as we all had to 'learn' Windows when we started using it, so there will be at least a little learning required for Linux.

Zurrrrr 4y ago
Exactly. As someone else pointed out some AAA titles don't work, and stuff with strong DRM/anti-cheat won't, but that's a minority of stuff at this point which will only dwindle further.
- tracker1 4y ago
  Even then... with Vavle's efforts, a lot of DRM just takes a software update (mostly) to work in Proton/Linux. Not that a lot of the older AAA titles have been updated (or even recent ones). But it's consistently getting better. Will have to see which direction things head over time.

anthk 4y ago

Not Linux but you could do that with a BSD kernel perfectly. MS could implement Win32 on top of a BSD kernel in just weeks. Did you know Win32 runs as a subsystem on top of NT, as there are several more such as a subsystem for Unix?

Zurrrrr 4y ago
I know NT was designed with that in mind, but I don't think any type of unix subsystem is still maintained or would work these days. Although they could make it if they wanted it to. Then again maybe the modern NT no longer has that capability.
DeathArrow 4y ago
Support for the POSIX subsystem was deprecated some time ago according to Wikipedia: > Microsoft's first foray into achieving Unix-like compatibility on Windows began with the Microsoft POSIX Subsystem, superseded by Windows Services for UNIX via MKS/Interix, which was eventually deprecated with the release of Windows 8.1. There was also the possibility to run Linux software under Windows using coLinux.
mcv 4y ago
I've been thinking about something similar: wouldn't it be possible to create an OS that supports both Linux and Windows executables? (And maybe also Mac while we're at it.) Probably not based on the Linux kernel, but perhaps on a microkernel of some sort. But if it already works with BSD, that's even better.

consp 4y ago

> But not all manufacturers want that I have a device in our work environment which runs on kernel 2.6.32, last patch 2014. Can't update the machine because they do not update the drivers for that machine's hardware. The "open" (aka diy) driver runs on 4.9 at the latest and won't be updated any further despite the EOL being only this year. It's all about money, they just want you to buy the new hardware and cough up some extra cash for them.

bombolo 4y ago

> No plug-and-play support for a lot of input devices like joysticks and steering wheels. Many require editing of cryptic configuration files. If they are USB they just work. I imagine something that uses a serial port or the microphone jack to function as a joystick would need a special driver, yes.

trinsic2 4y ago

> Also, games If you're saying that games work better than windows that they do in Linux I'd have to say that this is changing very quickly. The proton layer is really changing the game on that. And it seems like many companies like Google will be moving to running applications in that environment. I could see The day where this leads to companies developing native applications for Linux.

DeathArrow 4y ago

> As a mostly Linux user, I disagree. You simply can't replace Windows with Linux, at least not in the near future. You can with emulation, compatibility layers, stuff like Wine and DXVK and using Linux drivers. Also lots of software ends up being written in top of Electron, so it makes easier. Will it be a great user experience? Probably not, but that's not the point. If it will win Microsoft some money, that would be enough of a reason. A better idea would be open sourcing Windows if that is legally possible for them to do.