14 ms·

The ThinkPad X1 Carbon Gen 10 as a Linux Laptop

142 points by teleforce 4y ago

intsunny 4y ago
Now that Framework is coming out with AMD models, I find myself suddenly less excited about Linux on laptops from all other vendors. Sure maybe this Thinkpad has nice hardware, but this laptop has three major flaws all others do: 1: Too many sub-variant models: Did you get one with a Qualcomm wifi chip, or an Intel wifi chip? Linux users do not have the luxury of not caring. 2. The ODM's never design these laptops with Linux in mind. Often a simple BIOS update is enough to make or break that experience. 3: No safety in numbers, no network effect: Maybe a few hundred people buy this Thinkpad model/variant to run Linux. The numbers simply are not enough for Lenovo and friends to financially care. There will likely never be enough eyes on this machine to make it a first rate experience.
- csdvrx 4y ago
  > Too many sub-variant models This is a strength: many parts you can swap (or install later: put that empty WWAN port to a good use!) > a simple BIOS update is enough to make or break that experience In my experience, not with Lenovo, but personally I rarely update the BIOS. In fact, I prefer very old BIOSes, hoping for a bug that'll lead to interesting work or exploits: I don't want say the keyboard microcode holes plugged by marking the flash regions read only: that'd lock me out of exploiting them later, say to alter the keycodes! > No safety in numbers, no network effect: This is a very VERY wrong take: thinkpads are what linux hackers use the most, on both end of the spectrum: When they are brand new, you have highly technical people and companies doing fixes or original work (ex: linaro work on the MHI driver for the LTE/5G chip). That's expensive, and likely outside the reach of Framework. Then when they're old, you've got students, hobbyist etc who find new ways to teach old dogs new tricks: like motherboard swaps (X62, X210 etc) The framework is interesting, and 10 years from now, maybe it'll be the right choice. Not now, not in the next 5 years. It's at best a niche choice for people who don't want to tinker too much, and prefer something "average": you won't get bad surprises, but you won't get good ones either. I like foldable OLED, nice hardware and all that you won't find in a framework now. Maybe later, which is why I really hope they'll be successful!
  - davidy123 4y ago
    > Then when they're old, you've got students, hobbyist etc who find new ways to teach old dogs new tricks: like motherboard swaps (X62, X210 etc) Yup. I'm going to break a few taboos here and post this: https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/338007901_6072044896165933_3527237163519858246_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=itPZzT_WkDYAX-eBc58&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AfDoyVrPJI9Obicx0Wy1_QDpDU7mSL6FlXj5Xgd6ayI7JA&oe=64296686 https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/338007901...
    - mablopoule 4y ago
      The window XP. The ricing, the stickers, the business / quirky users, everything is so on point. I'm saving this, thanks you.
      - bitwize 4y ago
        The programming socks...
    - csdvrx 4y ago
      Plot twist: it's the same person (Top comment from reddit a few days ago)
    - bitwize 4y ago
      Trans, furry, plural... sounds about right. It's missing a Rust crab sticker.
  - zamnos 4y ago
    > Not now, not in the next 5 years. I wonder how long it'll actually take Framework. ThinkPads are built on experience going back to the first one by IBM Japan in 1992 and have certainly evolved through the years. The modularity of the Framework means that they can sell things in batches, so newer hardware becomes available as they make them. The question is how much time/money/effort they'll put into iterating the frame itself. Since they don't have to wait for a generation to elapse, the laptop frame team can just keep iterating as often as they're allowed to. A physical case issue with a gen 1 X1C Thinkpad had to wait until the gen two X1C were ready. The framework just has to wait for a factory to have available capacity and to have the funds to pay for it, decoupling the laptop's frame from the hardware inside of it.
- echelon 4y ago
  I own both the ThinkPad X1 Carbon and the Framework 13. Removing technical specs from the equation, the Framework is cool, but the Thinkpad is generations ahead in terms of its build quality, tactile feel, and overall ergonomics. And it's not by a small margin - it's immediately palpable. This is for several reasons: they're two different classes of notebooks with two different budgets; Lenovo has a lot more experience building laptops; Lenovo has access to a more sophisticated design, supply chain, and assembly process which they leverage to shape and mold the overall form better. I'm hoping Framework catches up. I really like what they're trying to accomplish. But for now, theirs is not the laptop I slide into my backpack.
  - pimterry 4y ago
    > the Framework is cool, but the Thinkpad is generations ahead in terms of its build quality, tactile feel, and overall ergonomics I also own both, and I feel the opposite. The Framework feels far better physically to me, especially the keyboard & larger touchpad. The rubberized texture on Thinkpad feels cheaper than the aluminium frame imo, the feet on the bottom of my Thinkpad all broke off within 6 months and the paint has all come off round the corners remarkably quickly (it gets carried in a backpack for 20 minutes most days plus a few flights, but nothing crazy). There's rough parts on the Framework too that they're still improving (I agree the hinges are a touch flimsy, though in my 12th gen at least not problematically so) but overall it's been a notable improvement.
    - echelon 4y ago
      We all see the world differently! :) The Thinkpad X1 Carbon's "rubberized texture" is a valid comment. It's not rubber - it's an expensive carbon composite shell that makes the machine light as a feather. It's an acquired taste, but I like it and definitely appreciate how lightweight it makes the machine. It's not as sturdy as aluminum, but it's a fraction of the weight and not cold to the touch. It does feel expensive though. Like aerospace carbon fiber. The Thinkpad's paint (textured finish) does wear and smooth out over time. That's a valid point. You will see darker worn regions around the palms and keys. If you're really handling the device, there's a chance that over years of use the dye at the corners begins to lighten. I've only seen that after five years of very heavy use, and it's only the very edge corners. Less than millimeters. You can probably Google and find example photos. The Thinkpad's ever so slight departure from the standard keyboard layouts feels better to me. The keypress mechanics themselves feel more premium. Again, different stokes. I did enjoy replacing the Framework's keyboard for one of my choosing, though. The Framework touchpad is a cheap knockoff of a Mac haptic touchpad. The depressed click feels gross. I'm hoping they improve this. I really don't like it. I've never worn off the rubber feet of an X1 Carbon, but I have on other laptop models. You've given me a new fear as that's one of my biggest pet peeves. :P I guess my biggest endorsement for the X1 is that I've owned two X1 Carbons (2016 and 2022) and plan to buy a third in five or six years, whenever my current one begins to show its age. I'll probably try the new and upcoming Framework 16 at some point, but I won't get one this year and probably not for some time.
- goosedragons 4y ago
  For ThinkPads they care a lot more. For example my P14s Gen 2 AMD lets you set the sleep state to S3 in the BIOS. This is labeled as "Linux". My W520 lets you disable the discrete Nvidia card in the BIOS when other laptops of the same time period would not and would assume you're using Windows and it's driver to disable the card. When graphics switching laptops first launched Linux support was super flakey and having the Nvidia card on all the time was a huge power draw. Even getting the card turned off was a chore on my Asus which lacked a BIOS toggle. No they aren't perfect at Linux support but ThinkPads are generally much better than the other big vendors including Lenovo themselves.
- maven29 4y ago
  There are plenty of enterprises that run linux in server farms as well as workstations. You have to remember that Lenovo has plenty of experience with linux this way. They have official ISOs and their metapackages are delivered with distro installers. Lenovo, Dell et al gets their devices certified with Canonical and Red Hat. OEMs usually work really closely with them. https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/ht511743-how-to-download-the-linux-image-from-the-e-support-page https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/ht511743-how-to-d... https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2020-January/002478.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2020-Janua... https://ubuntu.com/certified/202206-30347 https://ubuntu.com/certified/202206-30347 There is a caveat to all of this - you will only ever be able to run the LTS version for the lifecycle. With framework, you just hope that they follow intel/AMD reference design to the dot and that intel/AMD gets all the bugs out of the way.
  - sp0ck 4y ago
    Last time I checked finger print reader and camera user authentication (hello equivalent) wasn't working. Has it changed ?
    - eptcyka 4y ago
      Hello auth is Windows only by design. Fingerprint readers work just fine.
      - martiuk 4y ago
        You can use howdy: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Howdy https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Howdy
    - gcr 4y ago
      Arch wiki claims the laptop mentioned in this article supports the fingerprint reader out of the box with `fprintd`. You do have to be careful about purchasing the variant with the proper webcam (e.g. don't go for the 2.8k OLED model), because only one of the two variants works. https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_(Gen_10) https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_(...
- lofaszvanitt 4y ago
  My main problem with framework is that it's ugly.
  - oblio 4y ago
    From what I see it's just a basic, clean, laptop.
    - lofaszvanitt 4y ago
      Yeah, but it looks ugly. That's the only thing that keeps me from getting one.
      - fsflover 4y ago
        Do you consider Purism Librem 14 looking nice?
        bitwize 4y ago
        There's only one laptop that's universally regarded as beautiful: Apple MacBook Pro/Air. Also the most powerful and durable laptop, with the longest battery life.
        fsflover 4y ago
        > universally regarded I disagree.
        oblio 4y ago
        > Apple MacBook Pro Notchville? :-)))
        lofaszvanitt 4y ago
        Yeah it's one of the best. Sadly the M1/M2 chip is problematic for me.
        lofaszvanitt 4y ago
- ajdlinux 4y ago
  > Maybe a few hundred people buy this Thinkpad model/variant to run Linux My employer alone would be responsible for several hundred X1 Gen 10s running Linux across various parts of our company, I suspect.
  - knorker 4y ago
    My employer easily thousands. Maybe tens of thousands.
    - trelane 4y ago
      Now imagine if all that money went to a vendor that actually cared
      - knorker 4y ago
        It's capitalism. Nobody actually cares. I'm very happy with my personal X1 Carbon, too. I'm very much NOT happy with the Librem laptop.
        trelane 4y ago
        I personally am glad to live in the days when Linux is an option and will be quite annoyed if it goes away again due to others' short-sightedness. > NOT happy with the Librem laptop. Then choose a different one? > It's capitalism. Nobody actually cares. Right, for Leovo anyway. So long as you continue to give them your money in exchange for lackluster Linux support, you will continue to get lackluster Linux support.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        knorker 4y ago
        I get orders of magnitude better support from Lenovo than Librem. And that's just from the company. And the community is also much better for Lenovo, support wise. >> NOT happy with the Librem laptop. > Then choose a different one? I did. Lenovo. I don't have a problem. > I personally am glad to live in the days when Linux is an option and will be quite annoyed if it goes away again due to others' short-sightedness. Lenovo's Linux market is huge. It's not going away. People buy them because they work great with Linux.
- davidy123 4y ago
  I think you underestimate the Thinkpad commitment to Linux, and the effect the community has. I'd like to know officially, but since they target workstations there are probably a low but countable % of users that run Linux. They officially support it for many models, and sell a few models with it installed. Their people are passionate about it, give presentations etc. I've never experienced the hardware switcharoo for low level hardware like wifi chip, they do that for storage and display panels, but that doesn't matter for Linux compatibility.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    For example, where I work (Red Hat), Thinkpads are the standard laptop for Linux. (Not sure what % overall run Linux but it's a very non-trivial number.)
    - csdvrx 4y ago
      By any chance, would you have some arch users? I'm preparing a custom archiso and I'd love some testers with easy access to different configurations
      - ghaff 4y ago
        I doubt there are many. People who are actually developing for RHEL locally obviously run RHEL. Most everyone else running Linux runs Fedora, whether self-supported or, now, company-supported--or CentOS Stream.
        csdvrx 4y ago
        Nevermind then! I thought given the large volume there could be a few.
  - trelane 4y ago
    "No updates unless you use Windows" and broken hardware don't sound like "commitment to Linux"
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- criddell 4y ago
  I think if Asahi Linux delivers, Apple laptops will take over the Linux laptop market. Good performance per watt, fewer models that sell in great numbers, great displays, and they aren't shitty plastic boxes that flex and creak. If you have a hardware problem, reload macOS and you can get it fixed in the Apple Store across town.
  - officeplant 4y ago
    My main problem is a dead laptop if the storage dies. (I still own a M1 Air anyway) Really wish I could run MacOS off of an external drive as a backup option but it is extremely picky(I've tried multiple drives, USB3.2 and TB3). Eventually being able to boot Asahi off of an external would be ideal, but if the SSD dies there will be no booting with how apple has done things. This is becoming a harder pill to swallow with how long I'm trying to keep machines. Which sucks because Apple has put out the only ARM chip worth a damn for daily driver computing. I even tried convincing myself to live off of a Microsoft Dev Kit just so I could have replaceable storage that doesn't brick the machine on death, but dear lord Qualcomm needs to put out some reliable drivers for windows, let alone linux.
einpoklum 4y ago
> "... if you don't mind Lenovo's modern chiclet keyboards. For this particular vulture, the older seven-row design was vastly better, and we concur with our colleague who decried the modern "godawful chiclet six-row keyboard."" This. Linux or no, systemd or no - I need a laptop with a decent keyboard to type on, and it's been 10 years since Lenovo has offered those. Why can't those corporate managers get it through their heads that we need laptops to work with, not as a shiny fashion accessory?
- adql 4y ago
  I guess they come to conclusion all proper work gets done with docking station and proper keyboard at the very least
  - ploum 4y ago
    I’m not so optimistic. I feel the opposite: managers are convinced that "real" work is all about copy/pasting slides in powerpoint and clicking cells in excel. In fact, most of them are happy to "work" on their phone or tablet. Nearly none of them could touchtype anyway. So, yeah, keyboard is a thing for the working plebs. As long as it has a key to "launch videoconferencing". (and Apple is even worse in that regard)
    - pmontra 4y ago
      I'm siding with you. I add that maybe the new keyboard costs a little less than the old one and that's all some managers need to decide between two options.
- ako 4y ago
  What is this 7th row of keys you’re talking about? My P1 thinkpad has 6 rows, just like my 75% external mechanical keyboard. No problem getting work done with just 6 rows, as long as I don’t visit HN too often…
  - lproven 4y ago
    [Author of the story here] You're looking at one of the later models. The P1 also has a 6-row chiclet keyboard. Up until the X220, T420 and W520 models, Thinkpads had 7 rows of keys. From bottom to top: 1. Fn/Ctrl/Alt... cursor keys 2. Shift/\/Z... 3. CapsLk/A/S... 4. Tab/Q/W... 5. |/1/2... 6. F1/F2... 7. Esc/mute/Vol down/Vol up/Mic/Thinkvantage/Power/PrtSc/ScrlLk/Pause/Ins/Del/Home/PgUp
ianpurton 4y ago
Ubuntu was maybe not a good choice to start with. I installed it recently to find that it runs old kernals and old versions of software. i.e. OBS was a few versions behind.
- seunosewa 4y ago
  Which distribution is better?
  - ianpurton 4y ago
    I will probably try PopOs next.
    - unmole 4y ago
      PopOS is a Ubuntu derivative. It's going to have the same Kernel versions as Ubuntu.
      - Manozco 4y ago
        PoP Os! seems to use a 6.2 kernel in their jammy version (https://apt-origin.pop-os.org/release/pool/jammy/linux/4a8cde1bddd11db18d30b401da266185556a3e1f/ https://apt-origin.pop-os.org/release/pool/jammy/linux/4a8cd...) while Ubuntu still ships with a default 5.15 It is however quite easy to migrate to a 5.19 using hwe packages in Ubuntu but I don't think they ever shipped 6.x for jammy
    - andrewmutz 4y ago
      I have been running Pop OS every day for about a year and I can't recommend it highly enough. I am using it on a desktop, not a laptop, so I can't attest to laptop hardware support. Desktop hardware support (a cobbled-together PC) was great and everything just worked without installing drivers. Everything just works. The level of polish is very high. The window manager supports tiling in a way that is extremely easy to use. I installed windows on the same machine and windows is a disaster these days. I was chasing drivers, and never felt like I'd had them all properly installed. I regularly would end up with the Windows OS in a bad state and have to reinstall it
AshamedCaptain 4y ago
> Linux supports the machine well, with the exception of the webcam – and we're confident that will get sorted soon If the webcam is IPU based, which it likely is (otherwise it would be supported out of the box) then it may _never_ "get sorted" at all. Not for the useful life of the machine, that is.
- rhn_mk1 4y ago
  I'm not sure what your point is. It may also get sorted quickly. There are already projects going on to write the needed drivers, like libcamera.
  - vetinari 4y ago
    Depending on your definition of "sorted". For the foreseeable future, it is going to require proprietary libraries (userspace ones, not just firmware blobs). Until that changes, it won't be supported OOB on any distro.
    - rhn_mk1 4y ago
      The libcamera project is already a free userspace library supporting the IPU and exposing the relevant bits to applications. I still don't get why people say that there's nothing on the horizon.
      - vetinari 4y ago
        Because it still depends on the closed source libraries: > Does this mean the camera stack is completely open? > libcamera is open-source friendly which means all of libcamera itself is open source. libcamera uses a plugin system for Image Processing Algorithms (IPA) which are built as dynamically-linked shared objects, and are loaded at run-time. Open-source modules are identified based on digital signatures, while closed-source modules are isolated inside a Sandbox environment with restricted access to the system, reducing the impact of untrusted binary blobs. I.e. libcamera needs ipu6-camera-hal (which is open-source, apache licensed) which in turn depends on ipu6-camera-bins (which is binary-only, closed source).
srvmshr 4y ago
From personal experience, they have mostly worked flawlessly if you picked one of the standard flavors, such as Ubuntu/Fedora. I had a 14" 8th generation i5 X1 Carbon (c. 2019) and Ubuntu worked well after throwing out Windows 10. There were no touchpad or screen flickering issues either. I know a lot of people have complaints of the build quality of Lenovo ThinkPads (as opposed to IBM era ThinkPads), but X1 Carbons are pretty nice to have and work with. I have owned Dell Latitudes and HP EliteBook at different points – but the X1 Carbon was better at battery and responsiveness.
RandomWorker 4y ago
I broke my x1 in 2020 after using it daily while travelling the world doing just about everything with it for four and half years. Never had crazy heating issues and speed issues. And it just straight up died for no reason. Just 3 weeks after handing in my PhD thesis. I loved that thing.
- dizhn 4y ago
  I hope it wasn't something that could be fixed by sticking a pin into the reset hole.
djtango 4y ago
I have the Gen 9 running on Fedora and while it's been mostly smooth sailing, it struggles a lot with Wifi on my new mesh (after moving home) and screensharing on it via google meet (and other apps) is painfully slow to the point where there could be visible latency between me typing and vim updating
- dralley 4y ago
  Which mesh routers? Because the ones Google provides along with Google Fiber are garbage. 1 gigabit internet and I can barely scrape 40mbps in our living room.
  - djtango 4y ago
    Netgear Nighthawk AX1800 I also struggle in some hotels. The device is less than 2M away from router and sometimes drops below 1Mbps
PennRobotics 4y ago
Their issues are entirely consistent with mine on the first-gen ThinkPad Z13: Stylus was wonky for a while. ForcePad only recently got full functional parity with Windows (although I haven't tested this yet). 200% scaling is ridiculous looking but fractional doesn't work well. Sound after suspend has issues and is a pain to set up on something like Arch. There have been hardware problems (sections of keyboard unresponsive even after hard power-down, resolves after plugging in a wall charger), takes 28 seconds from power button to desktop, drag-and-drop into Firefox doesn't work... The list (which I have in a private Github repo) goes on and on... In contrast, the Dell XPS 13 9370 from a few years back was so rock-solid, I was duped into believing that laptop vendors finally figured out Linux. It's a shame, because the head of Linux at Lenovo genuinely cares and works hard to add support across their lineup, but it seems like he has to cope with whatever hardware and whatever team he has been given, and Lenovo introduces at least a dozen generation updates a year, it seems...
- archi42 4y ago
  Careful with the Dell, it's not sunshine and rainbows there either. Got the XPS 13 9310 in the Dev Edition (that is, with Ubuntu pre-loaded). I'm using that machine for Pentesting, so I went with Arch (+ Black Arch). Anyway, I already summarized this 7 months ago on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32562329 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32562329 [...] I'm not too happy with the Linux support [in the 9310] as well. I replaced Ubuntu with Arch (was the plan anyway) and had to fiddle with the fingerprint sensor, plus the WiFi is not suitable for pentesting (but worked out of the box on Arch). Bluetooth causes lockups, so I disabled that (maybe fixed with recent kernels?). Not exactly what I expected from a laptop that's sold with Linux. Next one will probably be not Dell. [end quote] Maybe it's much better with the 9370.
  - tomxor 4y ago
    > Maybe it's much better with the 9370. In general, it's usually not a good idea to chase the latest models for Linux support. This is common advice with thinkpads, intel chipsets, but is also true for Dell in my experience, I have an older xps 13 9370, The wifi driver for Linux was super flaky for the first 6 months, it takes a while for the community to catch up and iron out issues with the hardware - no matter what their "Linux Support" advertising may say... I prefer buying new machines because I will use them into the ground, I guess the only way around this is to buy with overlap, knowing that it might be a bit of a brick initially, but if it's a well adopted model in the Linux community you have comfort in knowing it will reliably improve.
codewiz 4y ago
I've been a longtime ThinkPad X1 user, but last year I switched to a System76 Lemur Pro, and I'm very satisfied. Here's an unboxing and mini-review: https://mstdn.io/@codewiz/108777933423983015 https://mstdn.io/@codewiz/108777933423983015
- codewiz 4y ago
  I also did a teardown and some benchmarks: https://mstdn.io/@codewiz/108784057386795811 https://mstdn.io/@codewiz/108784057386795811
- einpoklum 4y ago
  ... but its keyboard sucks, like the X1's :-( Do System76 sell any laptops with decent keyboards? i.e. tall keys with reasonable travel distance?
sysqoindia 4y ago
[flagged]
kristianp 4y ago
That's funny, the Gen 11 has only just been released a few days ago. Wonder if it's different enough to have problems with Linux.
pmontra 4y ago
Any idea why with xOrg keyboard and pointer are "laggy and unresponsive"? That's never been my experience, unless some program is stealing CPU cycles. Of course I never used one of these new laptops and CPUs.
- ofalkaed 4y ago
  It is an issue with the 5.19 kernel, it almost but not quite supports the hardware.
totalhack 4y ago
I got a Thinkbook 13s that is basically the same specs as this but was half the price and not razor thin. With the Intel 12th gen chips that's arguably a good thing though if you want to be able to let them fly a bit before thermal throttling. Ubuntu has been great on it aside from some occasional heat issues while sleeping. Running 6.x kernel now and just hoping that disappears with one of these updates but it happens rarely anyway. Overall very happy with it. Keyboard is way better than my last MacBook pro too.
totetsu 4y ago
You can get refurbished 5th gens for cheap because they had a recall for an issue where a screw could possibly pierce the battery. I’m using one as a daily laptop with Ubuntu and have no complaints. Even the firmware updates automatically via apt.
archi42 4y ago
The problematic scaling is really a huge pain point. And it is not even recent, since HiDPI screens are on the market for a long time now. Both for desktops and on laptops. tl;dr: I gave up on a 27" 4k (163dpi) screen because working with 150% scaling, vim in the terminal never was a sharp as on the WQHD (108dpi), and working exhausted me quickly. Sold the 4k, got a 109dpi ultrawide and am happy again. Long rant: I've been using multi screen setups for a long time (both privately and professionally). So when one of my home displays finally had to be replaced, I went with a nice, modern LG 4k 27" (163dpi) with a great panel; figuring I'll get a second one of these if I'm happy with the first one. Since my other screen was still a WQHD 27" (2560x1440, ~108dpi) I had to scale 100% on the old screen and 150% on the new one. This of course worked poorly (both in Windows and Linux), but I didn't expect this to be great anyway. Since the age of my WQHD was way too obvious anyway, I got rid of that and only lived with a single 4k screen for a few months. While the display itself was amazing, scaling on Linux (KDE on Arch) was a pain. At 150% everything had a nice size, but for the love of god I could get no combination of font face, font size, terminal emulator and scaling that allowed me to happily work with source code in vim for 8h per day, and that did not make the rest of the UI unusable small (and usually I'm the guy who is told "Oh, that's so small! How can you even work with that?"). Eventually I realized that I needed glasses, but while those did slightly improve the situation on the receiving end, it didn't fix the issues with fractional scaling. In the end, instead of getting another 4k screen, I sold the 4k again and got a 34" UWQHD (3440x1440, ~109dpi) which is 34% wider than my old 27" WQHD (I could continue to rant how I had to order three well-reviewed displays until I got one that was good, but I'll spare you). I'm now happy again. Honestly, I am not sure if fractional scaling will ever work really well. In the end, it is always fractional. Of course instead of rendering at 1x resolution and then scale up by 1.5x, we could render at 3x resolution and the scale down by 2x, but then every UI framework needs to be adapted, old applications need to be made aware of this, and what about those that are not maintained anymore... and not even considering the extra CPU time (and power draw on laptops) to render four times the pixels.
blodkorv 4y ago
I have a thinkpad X1 bought in 2019(idk which gen) its horrible as a linux laptop, mainly because of the scaling issues. But also the touchpad is not good. Its quite bad in windows but even worse in linux. The battery get empty much faster in linux as well. Another annoying thing about it that has nothing to do with the os is that the trackpoint randomly makes the pointer "drift" and theres nothing you can do when that happens except to wait for it to stop. It seems to be sort of a common thing on thinkpads and i have gotten lenovo to replace my trackpoint and its still an issue. My next laptop will be a dell or something.
- lwhalen 4y ago
  Same here, I have spent an INORDINATE amount of hours trying to fix this exact same trackpad issue on two generations of Thinkpad X-series, and it just. doesn't. work. My next linux laptop will be a Framework.
  - kristianp 4y ago
    I've got an X1 Gen6, got it in 2018. It still works. I have never had the mouse pointer drift problem.
stncls 4y ago
Periodic reminder: if you plan on using Linux, before buying any laptop, always check the Arch Linux wiki first. I don't even run Arch, but in my experience, the Arch wikis for hardware support are amazing: complete, accurate, and to the point. For laptops, they start with a small table indicating what works and what does not. Then concise but precise explanations of the pain points. And whenever a fix exists, it is explained in a way that will make it work not only on Arch, but often also on other distros. Take this very laptop for example, the X1 Carbon Gen10. The Arch wiki entry [1] has all the information found in the OP, but it cuts right to the point without any fluff. And then it adds technical explanations and workarounds. [1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_(Gen_10) https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_(...
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Another periodic reminder: Whenever you buy a new laptop don't just nuke the Windows install that comes out of the box and go directly to installing Linux, but boot into it first and let Windows Update install all firmware updates as those updates might not be available under Linux.
  - davidy123 4y ago
    Linux supports firmware updates via fwupd. It's integrated into most distros.
    - stncls 4y ago
      Both you and GP are right, depending on the laptop manufacturer. Like you, I personally nuke Windows immediately and run fwupd from Linux... but then... I'm lucky I get to choose my own laptops. And I only buy those whose manufacturers support fwupd. It's a growing number, but I don't think it's a majority...? I'm not sure, I would be happy if anyone had hard data here.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      Read my comment again please. Slowly and carefully. Especially this part: >those updates might not be available under Linux Just because FWUPD exists, doesn't mean that FWUPD has updates for all laptops or HW devices in your laptop. All HW manufacturers ship Windows drivers and FW updates for Windows, but not all push their updates to fwupd as well. That's why you should use Windows to update everything first especially if you don't know if your devices are supported by fwupd.
Crontab 4y ago
I'm not saying that I think this should be the default, as I know many people love it, but I would like the option to buy a Thinkpad without the TrackPoint. I am just not a fan of it.
- elif 4y ago
  As a boot-to-emacs kind of user I would prefer a laptop without a trackpad. They are getting so large on modern laptops it is impossible to comfortably type without accidentally moving the cursor.
- dizhn 4y ago
  I would have loved to use the one on my t480s but unfortunately the placement of the middle button make it impossible for me. I hear people are using it with two hands.
wvh 4y ago
I just got a new Thinkpad Yoga from work. It came with Ubuntu pre-installed, but I installed Arch. I'm actually surprised this model has the option of Ubuntu when ordering. So far so good; now that I've got something newer, I'm trying out the current state of Wayland, and there's some issues there still with KDE and SDDM and such. If it'd have been my own choice, I'd have gone for a Framework laptop, but that wasn't an option since we have a fixed supplier. Apparently replacing components such as the keyboard on these models require taking apart the whole thing and replacing half the shell, compared to typical, more traditional Thinkpad models. I've had to replace the keyboard twice on my old T-series Thinkpad, and I'm really not looking forward to do that on this Yoga model (and I think the Carbon also requires taking it apart).
sp0ck 4y ago
Haha: 10 years later after I tried Linux od desktop nothing changed. Distro A: X things works, Y things doesn't Distro B: Y things works, X things doesn't Distro C: Partialy X things works and partialy Y things works I never had setup where everything was working :) Moved to Apple and instead of working on a OS, I started using it.
- epilys 4y ago
  The following is not a reply to you, but to people who say "haha XYZ doesn't work" and "year of Linux desktop". If you can't make this compromise, then FOSS OSes were never for you. Most hardware vendors don't contribute missing drivers or features upstream. The majority of the work is done by unpaid volunteers. It's a fallacy to compare things with Apple, who has in payroll software engineers to support a handful of devices with their custom OS. All these "haha XYZ doesn't work" criticisms have volunteers as their target. Why don't you contribute fixes for your device yourself? Nobody forced you to try Linux distros on your hardware.
  - JPws_Prntr_Fngr 4y ago
    > It's a fallacy to compare things with Apple, who has in payroll software engineers to support a handful of devices with their custom OS. How exactly is comparing a Linux distro to MacOS a logical fallacy? [0] The logic for many people is very simple: * I have work I need to do * The open source "volunteer"-built[1] linux distro will unfortunately impose much more friction. * The closed source MacOS/Windows will unfortunately impose way less friction. * Therefore, MacOS is a better tool to get that work done. It might be reversed for an exception like an embedded software engineer or something, but for most everyone else, it's sad but true. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy [1] but let's be honest, aside from the kernel, it's pretty much a corporate game at this point
    - epilys 4y ago
      The fallacy is petitio principii: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question The assumption is that the two operating systems are comparable, for the reasons given in the same sentence after the comma. And of course, no one is forcing you to run linux for your work.
euix 4y ago
I have a T15 gen 1 running pop_os! like others I loaded linux right at the start everything works except the camera basically appears like it doesn't exist no matter what I do, its as if its not detected at a hardware level.
scratchfi 4y ago
I haven't been happy with my work Lenovo laptop. (New release in the last year or two) The fans sounds like a jet at takeoff thrust, thermals aren't great, and the dock glitches and disconnects monitors frequently. Mine had an an early-life screen failure too.
vngzs 4y ago
I have this laptop. The connection between the charger and the battery died, roughly 13 months in. I met another tech worker who had this laptop. Also ran Linux on it, like me. They complained that the connection between the charger and the battery failed and the laptop is now bricked. The laptop was a dream before that. But the battery->charger connection (which is just USB3) is painfully unreliable - buyer beware.
pyrophane 4y ago
One thing I will say about the Gen 10 that most of the reviews also caught is that the battery life is a step down from the gen 9 because of the decision to switch to the Intel P-series processor. If you prefer longer battery life, you can pick up a gen 9 for less money, which is what I did.
taxyz 4y ago
Lenovo has a tool for exploring their bios for particular systems: https://download.lenovo.com/bsco/index.html https://download.lenovo.com/bsco/index.html Not sure why the subdomain is download because you do not have to download anything. This particular laptop supports s3 sleep (under config > sleep state).
- kristianp 4y ago
  Just having a look at that, it's a simulator for BIOS their setup utils. There's a sleep state called "S3 Linux" in the P14s Gen 3, described as: "optimised sleep state for versions of linux that are not compatible with suspend-to-idle"
elif 4y ago
Personally, I am growing comfortable with Windows Subsystem for Linux. Performance is fine for emacs, I don't have to worry about device drivers, I can run any form of application, I can treat the windows hypervisor as a remote client or as a VM for isolation purposes, I can run multiple versions of Linux, even at the same time, and it isn't as clunky and slow as using a traditional VM like virtualbox. The only thing that makes me jealous is when this post talks about quiet fans, and the battery benefits of Linux. Edit: I forgot to add one more benefit I ran into recently. If you need one version of a library or or tool for one project, and another version for another project, you don't have to monkey around with path scripts and bashrc to replace versions on the fly, you can just have an ideal environment for each project.
- seabrookmx 4y ago
  > battery benefits of Linux In my experience, battery life under windows is far superior due to more mature drivers. I'm lucky to get 4hrs out of my Framework laptop (with the i5-1240p) whereas Windows nets 6+. And that's with a 6.x kernel that has 12th gen support (I'm running Fedora as per Framework's recommendation). My old XPS 15 had much better battery life but a similar drop (percentage wise) running Ubuntu.
JJMalina 4y ago
Glad to see this article. I've been running Xubuntu on a Lenovo X1 Carbon 5th gen with since 2016 with no issues. Totally wiped Windows from the beginning. The only frustration I have is when using a non-hidpi external screen I have to change the dpi to match what the external screen is capable, so the laptop screen effectively becomes very small.
FpUser 4y ago
I think 32GB RAM maximum and highest mark somehow do not match.
ElijahLynn 4y ago
The X1 Yoga is better in my opinion. It is nearly the same as a Carbon but is a convertible and also has a touchscreen w/stylus.
ElijahLynn 4y ago
I just ordered an X1 Yoga (like a carbon but convertible w/touchscreen + stylus) and was able to order it with Ubuntu Linux on it. Gonna wipe it and put Arch anyways, but it was $100 cheaper as there was no Windows license fee.
rocket_surgeron 4y ago
Lenovo's anti-consumer behavior makes Apple look like a charity with a perfect rating on charitynavigator.org. Any time I'm at an open source thing and see someone with a Lenovo I smirk because they're oiling the gears the machine they're also raging against.
ofalkaed 4y ago
The quick version without all the vague distro talk and a few more Thinkpads thrown in. Current T14/X1/X13 laptops need at least a 5.19 kernel to work but 5.19 is buggy on them in multiple ways and should be avoided. 6.x kernels are very solid with these Thinkpads. Slackware current on my X13 was the most effortless linux install I have ever had on a Thinkpad, everything worked from the start.

142 points by teleforce 4y ago

Now that Framework is coming out with AMD models, I find myself suddenly less excited about Linux on laptops from all other vendors. Sure maybe this Thinkpad has nice hardware, but this laptop has three major flaws all others do: 1: Too many sub-variant models: Did you get one with a Qualcomm wifi chip, or an Intel wifi chip? Linux users do not have the luxury of not caring. 2. The ODM's never design these laptops with Linux in mind. Often a simple BIOS update is enough to make or break that experience. 3: No safety in numbers, no network effect: Maybe a few hundred people buy this Thinkpad model/variant to run Linux. The numbers simply are not enough for Lenovo and friends to financially care. There will likely never be enough eyes on this machine to make it a first rate experience.

csdvrx 4y ago
> Too many sub-variant models This is a strength: many parts you can swap (or install later: put that empty WWAN port to a good use!) > a simple BIOS update is enough to make or break that experience In my experience, not with Lenovo, but personally I rarely update the BIOS. In fact, I prefer very old BIOSes, hoping for a bug that'll lead to interesting work or exploits: I don't want say the keyboard microcode holes plugged by marking the flash regions read only: that'd lock me out of exploiting them later, say to alter the keycodes! > No safety in numbers, no network effect: This is a very VERY wrong take: thinkpads are what linux hackers use the most, on both end of the spectrum: When they are brand new, you have highly technical people and companies doing fixes or original work (ex: linaro work on the MHI driver for the LTE/5G chip). That's expensive, and likely outside the reach of Framework. Then when they're old, you've got students, hobbyist etc who find new ways to teach old dogs new tricks: like motherboard swaps (X62, X210 etc) The framework is interesting, and 10 years from now, maybe it'll be the right choice. Not now, not in the next 5 years. It's at best a niche choice for people who don't want to tinker too much, and prefer something "average": you won't get bad surprises, but you won't get good ones either. I like foldable OLED, nice hardware and all that you won't find in a framework now. Maybe later, which is why I really hope they'll be successful!
- davidy123 4y ago
  > Then when they're old, you've got students, hobbyist etc who find new ways to teach old dogs new tricks: like motherboard swaps (X62, X210 etc) Yup. I'm going to break a few taboos here and post this: https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/338007901_6072044896165933_3527237163519858246_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=itPZzT_WkDYAX-eBc58&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AfDoyVrPJI9Obicx0Wy1_QDpDU7mSL6FlXj5Xgd6ayI7JA&oe=64296686 https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/338007901...
  - mablopoule 4y ago
    The window XP. The ricing, the stickers, the business / quirky users, everything is so on point. I'm saving this, thanks you.
    - bitwize 4y ago
      The programming socks...
  - csdvrx 4y ago
    Plot twist: it's the same person (Top comment from reddit a few days ago)
  - bitwize 4y ago
    Trans, furry, plural... sounds about right. It's missing a Rust crab sticker.
- zamnos 4y ago
  > Not now, not in the next 5 years. I wonder how long it'll actually take Framework. ThinkPads are built on experience going back to the first one by IBM Japan in 1992 and have certainly evolved through the years. The modularity of the Framework means that they can sell things in batches, so newer hardware becomes available as they make them. The question is how much time/money/effort they'll put into iterating the frame itself. Since they don't have to wait for a generation to elapse, the laptop frame team can just keep iterating as often as they're allowed to. A physical case issue with a gen 1 X1C Thinkpad had to wait until the gen two X1C were ready. The framework just has to wait for a factory to have available capacity and to have the funds to pay for it, decoupling the laptop's frame from the hardware inside of it.
echelon 4y ago
I own both the ThinkPad X1 Carbon and the Framework 13. Removing technical specs from the equation, the Framework is cool, but the Thinkpad is generations ahead in terms of its build quality, tactile feel, and overall ergonomics. And it's not by a small margin - it's immediately palpable. This is for several reasons: they're two different classes of notebooks with two different budgets; Lenovo has a lot more experience building laptops; Lenovo has access to a more sophisticated design, supply chain, and assembly process which they leverage to shape and mold the overall form better. I'm hoping Framework catches up. I really like what they're trying to accomplish. But for now, theirs is not the laptop I slide into my backpack.
- pimterry 4y ago
  > the Framework is cool, but the Thinkpad is generations ahead in terms of its build quality, tactile feel, and overall ergonomics I also own both, and I feel the opposite. The Framework feels far better physically to me, especially the keyboard & larger touchpad. The rubberized texture on Thinkpad feels cheaper than the aluminium frame imo, the feet on the bottom of my Thinkpad all broke off within 6 months and the paint has all come off round the corners remarkably quickly (it gets carried in a backpack for 20 minutes most days plus a few flights, but nothing crazy). There's rough parts on the Framework too that they're still improving (I agree the hinges are a touch flimsy, though in my 12th gen at least not problematically so) but overall it's been a notable improvement.
  - echelon 4y ago
    We all see the world differently! :) The Thinkpad X1 Carbon's "rubberized texture" is a valid comment. It's not rubber - it's an expensive carbon composite shell that makes the machine light as a feather. It's an acquired taste, but I like it and definitely appreciate how lightweight it makes the machine. It's not as sturdy as aluminum, but it's a fraction of the weight and not cold to the touch. It does feel expensive though. Like aerospace carbon fiber. The Thinkpad's paint (textured finish) does wear and smooth out over time. That's a valid point. You will see darker worn regions around the palms and keys. If you're really handling the device, there's a chance that over years of use the dye at the corners begins to lighten. I've only seen that after five years of very heavy use, and it's only the very edge corners. Less than millimeters. You can probably Google and find example photos. The Thinkpad's ever so slight departure from the standard keyboard layouts feels better to me. The keypress mechanics themselves feel more premium. Again, different stokes. I did enjoy replacing the Framework's keyboard for one of my choosing, though. The Framework touchpad is a cheap knockoff of a Mac haptic touchpad. The depressed click feels gross. I'm hoping they improve this. I really don't like it. I've never worn off the rubber feet of an X1 Carbon, but I have on other laptop models. You've given me a new fear as that's one of my biggest pet peeves. :P I guess my biggest endorsement for the X1 is that I've owned two X1 Carbons (2016 and 2022) and plan to buy a third in five or six years, whenever my current one begins to show its age. I'll probably try the new and upcoming Framework 16 at some point, but I won't get one this year and probably not for some time.
goosedragons 4y ago
For ThinkPads they care a lot more. For example my P14s Gen 2 AMD lets you set the sleep state to S3 in the BIOS. This is labeled as "Linux". My W520 lets you disable the discrete Nvidia card in the BIOS when other laptops of the same time period would not and would assume you're using Windows and it's driver to disable the card. When graphics switching laptops first launched Linux support was super flakey and having the Nvidia card on all the time was a huge power draw. Even getting the card turned off was a chore on my Asus which lacked a BIOS toggle. No they aren't perfect at Linux support but ThinkPads are generally much better than the other big vendors including Lenovo themselves.
maven29 4y ago
There are plenty of enterprises that run linux in server farms as well as workstations. You have to remember that Lenovo has plenty of experience with linux this way. They have official ISOs and their metapackages are delivered with distro installers. Lenovo, Dell et al gets their devices certified with Canonical and Red Hat. OEMs usually work really closely with them. https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/ht511743-how-to-download-the-linux-image-from-the-e-support-page https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/ht511743-how-to-d... https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2020-January/002478.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2020-Janua... https://ubuntu.com/certified/202206-30347 https://ubuntu.com/certified/202206-30347 There is a caveat to all of this - you will only ever be able to run the LTS version for the lifecycle. With framework, you just hope that they follow intel/AMD reference design to the dot and that intel/AMD gets all the bugs out of the way.
- sp0ck 4y ago
  Last time I checked finger print reader and camera user authentication (hello equivalent) wasn't working. Has it changed ?
  - eptcyka 4y ago
    Hello auth is Windows only by design. Fingerprint readers work just fine.
    - martiuk 4y ago
      You can use howdy: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Howdy https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Howdy
  - gcr 4y ago
    Arch wiki claims the laptop mentioned in this article supports the fingerprint reader out of the box with `fprintd`. You do have to be careful about purchasing the variant with the proper webcam (e.g. don't go for the 2.8k OLED model), because only one of the two variants works. https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_(Gen_10) https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_(...
lofaszvanitt 4y ago
My main problem with framework is that it's ugly.
- oblio 4y ago
  From what I see it's just a basic, clean, laptop.
  - lofaszvanitt 4y ago
    Yeah, but it looks ugly. That's the only thing that keeps me from getting one.
    - fsflover 4y ago
      Do you consider Purism Librem 14 looking nice?
      - bitwize 4y ago
        There's only one laptop that's universally regarded as beautiful: Apple MacBook Pro/Air. Also the most powerful and durable laptop, with the longest battery life.
        fsflover 4y ago
        > universally regarded I disagree.
        oblio 4y ago
        > Apple MacBook Pro Notchville? :-)))
        lofaszvanitt 4y ago
        Yeah it's one of the best. Sadly the M1/M2 chip is problematic for me.
      - lofaszvanitt 4y ago
ajdlinux 4y ago
> Maybe a few hundred people buy this Thinkpad model/variant to run Linux My employer alone would be responsible for several hundred X1 Gen 10s running Linux across various parts of our company, I suspect.
- knorker 4y ago
  My employer easily thousands. Maybe tens of thousands.
  - trelane 4y ago
    Now imagine if all that money went to a vendor that actually cared
    - knorker 4y ago
      It's capitalism. Nobody actually cares. I'm very happy with my personal X1 Carbon, too. I'm very much NOT happy with the Librem laptop.
      - trelane 4y ago
        I personally am glad to live in the days when Linux is an option and will be quite annoyed if it goes away again due to others' short-sightedness. > NOT happy with the Librem laptop. Then choose a different one? > It's capitalism. Nobody actually cares. Right, for Leovo anyway. So long as you continue to give them your money in exchange for lackluster Linux support, you will continue to get lackluster Linux support.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        knorker 4y ago
        I get orders of magnitude better support from Lenovo than Librem. And that's just from the company. And the community is also much better for Lenovo, support wise. >> NOT happy with the Librem laptop. > Then choose a different one? I did. Lenovo. I don't have a problem. > I personally am glad to live in the days when Linux is an option and will be quite annoyed if it goes away again due to others' short-sightedness. Lenovo's Linux market is huge. It's not going away. People buy them because they work great with Linux.
davidy123 4y ago
I think you underestimate the Thinkpad commitment to Linux, and the effect the community has. I'd like to know officially, but since they target workstations there are probably a low but countable % of users that run Linux. They officially support it for many models, and sell a few models with it installed. Their people are passionate about it, give presentations etc. I've never experienced the hardware switcharoo for low level hardware like wifi chip, they do that for storage and display panels, but that doesn't matter for Linux compatibility.
- ghaff 4y ago
  For example, where I work (Red Hat), Thinkpads are the standard laptop for Linux. (Not sure what % overall run Linux but it's a very non-trivial number.)
  - csdvrx 4y ago
    By any chance, would you have some arch users? I'm preparing a custom archiso and I'd love some testers with easy access to different configurations
    - ghaff 4y ago
      I doubt there are many. People who are actually developing for RHEL locally obviously run RHEL. Most everyone else running Linux runs Fedora, whether self-supported or, now, company-supported--or CentOS Stream.
      - csdvrx 4y ago
        Nevermind then! I thought given the large volume there could be a few.
- trelane 4y ago
  "No updates unless you use Windows" and broken hardware don't sound like "commitment to Linux"
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
criddell 4y ago
I think if Asahi Linux delivers, Apple laptops will take over the Linux laptop market. Good performance per watt, fewer models that sell in great numbers, great displays, and they aren't shitty plastic boxes that flex and creak. If you have a hardware problem, reload macOS and you can get it fixed in the Apple Store across town.
- officeplant 4y ago
  My main problem is a dead laptop if the storage dies. (I still own a M1 Air anyway) Really wish I could run MacOS off of an external drive as a backup option but it is extremely picky(I've tried multiple drives, USB3.2 and TB3). Eventually being able to boot Asahi off of an external would be ideal, but if the SSD dies there will be no booting with how apple has done things. This is becoming a harder pill to swallow with how long I'm trying to keep machines. Which sucks because Apple has put out the only ARM chip worth a damn for daily driver computing. I even tried convincing myself to live off of a Microsoft Dev Kit just so I could have replaceable storage that doesn't brick the machine on death, but dear lord Qualcomm needs to put out some reliable drivers for windows, let alone linux.

einpoklum 4y ago

> "... if you don't mind Lenovo's modern chiclet keyboards. For this particular vulture, the older seven-row design was vastly better, and we concur with our colleague who decried the modern "godawful chiclet six-row keyboard."" This. Linux or no, systemd or no - I need a laptop with a decent keyboard to type on, and it's been 10 years since Lenovo has offered those. Why can't those corporate managers get it through their heads that we need laptops to work with, not as a shiny fashion accessory?

adql 4y ago
I guess they come to conclusion all proper work gets done with docking station and proper keyboard at the very least
- ploum 4y ago
  I’m not so optimistic. I feel the opposite: managers are convinced that "real" work is all about copy/pasting slides in powerpoint and clicking cells in excel. In fact, most of them are happy to "work" on their phone or tablet. Nearly none of them could touchtype anyway. So, yeah, keyboard is a thing for the working plebs. As long as it has a key to "launch videoconferencing". (and Apple is even worse in that regard)
  - pmontra 4y ago
    I'm siding with you. I add that maybe the new keyboard costs a little less than the old one and that's all some managers need to decide between two options.
ako 4y ago
What is this 7th row of keys you’re talking about? My P1 thinkpad has 6 rows, just like my 75% external mechanical keyboard. No problem getting work done with just 6 rows, as long as I don’t visit HN too often…
- lproven 4y ago
  [Author of the story here] You're looking at one of the later models. The P1 also has a 6-row chiclet keyboard. Up until the X220, T420 and W520 models, Thinkpads had 7 rows of keys. From bottom to top: 1. Fn/Ctrl/Alt... cursor keys 2. Shift/\/Z... 3. CapsLk/A/S... 4. Tab/Q/W... 5. |/1/2... 6. F1/F2... 7. Esc/mute/Vol down/Vol up/Mic/Thinkvantage/Power/PrtSc/ScrlLk/Pause/Ins/Del/Home/PgUp

ianpurton 4y ago

Ubuntu was maybe not a good choice to start with. I installed it recently to find that it runs old kernals and old versions of software. i.e. OBS was a few versions behind.

seunosewa 4y ago
Which distribution is better?
- ianpurton 4y ago
  I will probably try PopOs next.
  - unmole 4y ago
    PopOS is a Ubuntu derivative. It's going to have the same Kernel versions as Ubuntu.
    - Manozco 4y ago
      PoP Os! seems to use a 6.2 kernel in their jammy version (https://apt-origin.pop-os.org/release/pool/jammy/linux/4a8cde1bddd11db18d30b401da266185556a3e1f/ https://apt-origin.pop-os.org/release/pool/jammy/linux/4a8cd...) while Ubuntu still ships with a default 5.15 It is however quite easy to migrate to a 5.19 using hwe packages in Ubuntu but I don't think they ever shipped 6.x for jammy
  - andrewmutz 4y ago
    I have been running Pop OS every day for about a year and I can't recommend it highly enough. I am using it on a desktop, not a laptop, so I can't attest to laptop hardware support. Desktop hardware support (a cobbled-together PC) was great and everything just worked without installing drivers. Everything just works. The level of polish is very high. The window manager supports tiling in a way that is extremely easy to use. I installed windows on the same machine and windows is a disaster these days. I was chasing drivers, and never felt like I'd had them all properly installed. I regularly would end up with the Windows OS in a bad state and have to reinstall it

AshamedCaptain 4y ago

> Linux supports the machine well, with the exception of the webcam – and we're confident that will get sorted soon If the webcam is IPU based, which it likely is (otherwise it would be supported out of the box) then it may _never_ "get sorted" at all. Not for the useful life of the machine, that is.

rhn_mk1 4y ago
I'm not sure what your point is. It may also get sorted quickly. There are already projects going on to write the needed drivers, like libcamera.
- vetinari 4y ago
  Depending on your definition of "sorted". For the foreseeable future, it is going to require proprietary libraries (userspace ones, not just firmware blobs). Until that changes, it won't be supported OOB on any distro.
  - rhn_mk1 4y ago
    The libcamera project is already a free userspace library supporting the IPU and exposing the relevant bits to applications. I still don't get why people say that there's nothing on the horizon.
    - vetinari 4y ago
      Because it still depends on the closed source libraries: > Does this mean the camera stack is completely open? > libcamera is open-source friendly which means all of libcamera itself is open source. libcamera uses a plugin system for Image Processing Algorithms (IPA) which are built as dynamically-linked shared objects, and are loaded at run-time. Open-source modules are identified based on digital signatures, while closed-source modules are isolated inside a Sandbox environment with restricted access to the system, reducing the impact of untrusted binary blobs. I.e. libcamera needs ipu6-camera-hal (which is open-source, apache licensed) which in turn depends on ipu6-camera-bins (which is binary-only, closed source).

srvmshr 4y ago

From personal experience, they have mostly worked flawlessly if you picked one of the standard flavors, such as Ubuntu/Fedora. I had a 14" 8th generation i5 X1 Carbon (c. 2019) and Ubuntu worked well after throwing out Windows 10. There were no touchpad or screen flickering issues either. I know a lot of people have complaints of the build quality of Lenovo ThinkPads (as opposed to IBM era ThinkPads), but X1 Carbons are pretty nice to have and work with. I have owned Dell Latitudes and HP EliteBook at different points – but the X1 Carbon was better at battery and responsiveness.

RandomWorker 4y ago

I broke my x1 in 2020 after using it daily while travelling the world doing just about everything with it for four and half years. Never had crazy heating issues and speed issues. And it just straight up died for no reason. Just 3 weeks after handing in my PhD thesis. I loved that thing.

dizhn 4y ago
I hope it wasn't something that could be fixed by sticking a pin into the reset hole.

djtango 4y ago

I have the Gen 9 running on Fedora and while it's been mostly smooth sailing, it struggles a lot with Wifi on my new mesh (after moving home) and screensharing on it via google meet (and other apps) is painfully slow to the point where there could be visible latency between me typing and vim updating

dralley 4y ago
Which mesh routers? Because the ones Google provides along with Google Fiber are garbage. 1 gigabit internet and I can barely scrape 40mbps in our living room.
- djtango 4y ago
  Netgear Nighthawk AX1800 I also struggle in some hotels. The device is less than 2M away from router and sometimes drops below 1Mbps

PennRobotics 4y ago

Their issues are entirely consistent with mine on the first-gen ThinkPad Z13: Stylus was wonky for a while. ForcePad only recently got full functional parity with Windows (although I haven't tested this yet). 200% scaling is ridiculous looking but fractional doesn't work well. Sound after suspend has issues and is a pain to set up on something like Arch. There have been hardware problems (sections of keyboard unresponsive even after hard power-down, resolves after plugging in a wall charger), takes 28 seconds from power button to desktop, drag-and-drop into Firefox doesn't work... The list (which I have in a private Github repo) goes on and on... In contrast, the Dell XPS 13 9370 from a few years back was so rock-solid, I was duped into believing that laptop vendors finally figured out Linux. It's a shame, because the head of Linux at Lenovo genuinely cares and works hard to add support across their lineup, but it seems like he has to cope with whatever hardware and whatever team he has been given, and Lenovo introduces at least a dozen generation updates a year, it seems...

archi42 4y ago
Careful with the Dell, it's not sunshine and rainbows there either. Got the XPS 13 9310 in the Dev Edition (that is, with Ubuntu pre-loaded). I'm using that machine for Pentesting, so I went with Arch (+ Black Arch). Anyway, I already summarized this 7 months ago on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32562329 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32562329 [...] I'm not too happy with the Linux support [in the 9310] as well. I replaced Ubuntu with Arch (was the plan anyway) and had to fiddle with the fingerprint sensor, plus the WiFi is not suitable for pentesting (but worked out of the box on Arch). Bluetooth causes lockups, so I disabled that (maybe fixed with recent kernels?). Not exactly what I expected from a laptop that's sold with Linux. Next one will probably be not Dell. [end quote] Maybe it's much better with the 9370.
- tomxor 4y ago
  > Maybe it's much better with the 9370. In general, it's usually not a good idea to chase the latest models for Linux support. This is common advice with thinkpads, intel chipsets, but is also true for Dell in my experience, I have an older xps 13 9370, The wifi driver for Linux was super flaky for the first 6 months, it takes a while for the community to catch up and iron out issues with the hardware - no matter what their "Linux Support" advertising may say... I prefer buying new machines because I will use them into the ground, I guess the only way around this is to buy with overlap, knowing that it might be a bit of a brick initially, but if it's a well adopted model in the Linux community you have comfort in knowing it will reliably improve.

codewiz 4y ago

I've been a longtime ThinkPad X1 user, but last year I switched to a System76 Lemur Pro, and I'm very satisfied. Here's an unboxing and mini-review: https://mstdn.io/@codewiz/108777933423983015 https://mstdn.io/@codewiz/108777933423983015

codewiz 4y ago
I also did a teardown and some benchmarks: https://mstdn.io/@codewiz/108784057386795811 https://mstdn.io/@codewiz/108784057386795811
einpoklum 4y ago
... but its keyboard sucks, like the X1's :-( Do System76 sell any laptops with decent keyboards? i.e. tall keys with reasonable travel distance?

sysqoindia 4y ago

[flagged]

kristianp 4y ago

That's funny, the Gen 11 has only just been released a few days ago. Wonder if it's different enough to have problems with Linux.

pmontra 4y ago

Any idea why with xOrg keyboard and pointer are "laggy and unresponsive"? That's never been my experience, unless some program is stealing CPU cycles. Of course I never used one of these new laptops and CPUs.

ofalkaed 4y ago
It is an issue with the 5.19 kernel, it almost but not quite supports the hardware.

totalhack 4y ago

I got a Thinkbook 13s that is basically the same specs as this but was half the price and not razor thin. With the Intel 12th gen chips that's arguably a good thing though if you want to be able to let them fly a bit before thermal throttling. Ubuntu has been great on it aside from some occasional heat issues while sleeping. Running 6.x kernel now and just hoping that disappears with one of these updates but it happens rarely anyway. Overall very happy with it. Keyboard is way better than my last MacBook pro too.

totetsu 4y ago

You can get refurbished 5th gens for cheap because they had a recall for an issue where a screw could possibly pierce the battery. I’m using one as a daily laptop with Ubuntu and have no complaints. Even the firmware updates automatically via apt.

archi42 4y ago

The problematic scaling is really a huge pain point. And it is not even recent, since HiDPI screens are on the market for a long time now. Both for desktops and on laptops. tl;dr: I gave up on a 27" 4k (163dpi) screen because working with 150% scaling, vim in the terminal never was a sharp as on the WQHD (108dpi), and working exhausted me quickly. Sold the 4k, got a 109dpi ultrawide and am happy again. Long rant: I've been using multi screen setups for a long time (both privately and professionally). So when one of my home displays finally had to be replaced, I went with a nice, modern LG 4k 27" (163dpi) with a great panel; figuring I'll get a second one of these if I'm happy with the first one. Since my other screen was still a WQHD 27" (2560x1440, ~108dpi) I had to scale 100% on the old screen and 150% on the new one. This of course worked poorly (both in Windows and Linux), but I didn't expect this to be great anyway. Since the age of my WQHD was way too obvious anyway, I got rid of that and only lived with a single 4k screen for a few months. While the display itself was amazing, scaling on Linux (KDE on Arch) was a pain. At 150% everything had a nice size, but for the love of god I could get no combination of font face, font size, terminal emulator and scaling that allowed me to happily work with source code in vim for 8h per day, and that did not make the rest of the UI unusable small (and usually I'm the guy who is told "Oh, that's so small! How can you even work with that?"). Eventually I realized that I needed glasses, but while those did slightly improve the situation on the receiving end, it didn't fix the issues with fractional scaling. In the end, instead of getting another 4k screen, I sold the 4k again and got a 34" UWQHD (3440x1440, ~109dpi) which is 34% wider than my old 27" WQHD (I could continue to rant how I had to order three well-reviewed displays until I got one that was good, but I'll spare you). I'm now happy again. Honestly, I am not sure if fractional scaling will ever work really well. In the end, it is always fractional. Of course instead of rendering at 1x resolution and then scale up by 1.5x, we could render at 3x resolution and the scale down by 2x, but then every UI framework needs to be adapted, old applications need to be made aware of this, and what about those that are not maintained anymore... and not even considering the extra CPU time (and power draw on laptops) to render four times the pixels.

blodkorv 4y ago

I have a thinkpad X1 bought in 2019(idk which gen) its horrible as a linux laptop, mainly because of the scaling issues. But also the touchpad is not good. Its quite bad in windows but even worse in linux. The battery get empty much faster in linux as well. Another annoying thing about it that has nothing to do with the os is that the trackpoint randomly makes the pointer "drift" and theres nothing you can do when that happens except to wait for it to stop. It seems to be sort of a common thing on thinkpads and i have gotten lenovo to replace my trackpoint and its still an issue. My next laptop will be a dell or something.

lwhalen 4y ago
Same here, I have spent an INORDINATE amount of hours trying to fix this exact same trackpad issue on two generations of Thinkpad X-series, and it just. doesn't. work. My next linux laptop will be a Framework.
- kristianp 4y ago
  I've got an X1 Gen6, got it in 2018. It still works. I have never had the mouse pointer drift problem.

stncls 4y ago

Periodic reminder: if you plan on using Linux, before buying any laptop, always check the Arch Linux wiki first. I don't even run Arch, but in my experience, the Arch wikis for hardware support are amazing: complete, accurate, and to the point. For laptops, they start with a small table indicating what works and what does not. Then concise but precise explanations of the pain points. And whenever a fix exists, it is explained in a way that will make it work not only on Arch, but often also on other distros. Take this very laptop for example, the X1 Carbon Gen10. The Arch wiki entry [1] has all the information found in the OP, but it cuts right to the point without any fluff. And then it adds technical explanations and workarounds. [1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_(Gen_10) https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_(...

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Another periodic reminder: Whenever you buy a new laptop don't just nuke the Windows install that comes out of the box and go directly to installing Linux, but boot into it first and let Windows Update install all firmware updates as those updates might not be available under Linux.
- davidy123 4y ago
  Linux supports firmware updates via fwupd. It's integrated into most distros.
  - stncls 4y ago
    Both you and GP are right, depending on the laptop manufacturer. Like you, I personally nuke Windows immediately and run fwupd from Linux... but then... I'm lucky I get to choose my own laptops. And I only buy those whose manufacturers support fwupd. It's a growing number, but I don't think it's a majority...? I'm not sure, I would be happy if anyone had hard data here.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Read my comment again please. Slowly and carefully. Especially this part: >those updates might not be available under Linux Just because FWUPD exists, doesn't mean that FWUPD has updates for all laptops or HW devices in your laptop. All HW manufacturers ship Windows drivers and FW updates for Windows, but not all push their updates to fwupd as well. That's why you should use Windows to update everything first especially if you don't know if your devices are supported by fwupd.

Crontab 4y ago

I'm not saying that I think this should be the default, as I know many people love it, but I would like the option to buy a Thinkpad without the TrackPoint. I am just not a fan of it.

elif 4y ago
As a boot-to-emacs kind of user I would prefer a laptop without a trackpad. They are getting so large on modern laptops it is impossible to comfortably type without accidentally moving the cursor.
dizhn 4y ago
I would have loved to use the one on my t480s but unfortunately the placement of the middle button make it impossible for me. I hear people are using it with two hands.

wvh 4y ago

I just got a new Thinkpad Yoga from work. It came with Ubuntu pre-installed, but I installed Arch. I'm actually surprised this model has the option of Ubuntu when ordering. So far so good; now that I've got something newer, I'm trying out the current state of Wayland, and there's some issues there still with KDE and SDDM and such. If it'd have been my own choice, I'd have gone for a Framework laptop, but that wasn't an option since we have a fixed supplier. Apparently replacing components such as the keyboard on these models require taking apart the whole thing and replacing half the shell, compared to typical, more traditional Thinkpad models. I've had to replace the keyboard twice on my old T-series Thinkpad, and I'm really not looking forward to do that on this Yoga model (and I think the Carbon also requires taking it apart).

sp0ck 4y ago

Haha: 10 years later after I tried Linux od desktop nothing changed. Distro A: X things works, Y things doesn't Distro B: Y things works, X things doesn't Distro C: Partialy X things works and partialy Y things works I never had setup where everything was working :) Moved to Apple and instead of working on a OS, I started using it.

epilys 4y ago
The following is not a reply to you, but to people who say "haha XYZ doesn't work" and "year of Linux desktop". If you can't make this compromise, then FOSS OSes were never for you. Most hardware vendors don't contribute missing drivers or features upstream. The majority of the work is done by unpaid volunteers. It's a fallacy to compare things with Apple, who has in payroll software engineers to support a handful of devices with their custom OS. All these "haha XYZ doesn't work" criticisms have volunteers as their target. Why don't you contribute fixes for your device yourself? Nobody forced you to try Linux distros on your hardware.
- JPws_Prntr_Fngr 4y ago
  > It's a fallacy to compare things with Apple, who has in payroll software engineers to support a handful of devices with their custom OS. How exactly is comparing a Linux distro to MacOS a logical fallacy? [0] The logic for many people is very simple: * I have work I need to do * The open source "volunteer"-built[1] linux distro will unfortunately impose much more friction. * The closed source MacOS/Windows will unfortunately impose way less friction. * Therefore, MacOS is a better tool to get that work done. It might be reversed for an exception like an embedded software engineer or something, but for most everyone else, it's sad but true. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy [1] but let's be honest, aside from the kernel, it's pretty much a corporate game at this point
  - epilys 4y ago
    The fallacy is petitio principii: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question The assumption is that the two operating systems are comparable, for the reasons given in the same sentence after the comma. And of course, no one is forcing you to run linux for your work.

euix 4y ago

I have a T15 gen 1 running pop_os! like others I loaded linux right at the start everything works except the camera basically appears like it doesn't exist no matter what I do, its as if its not detected at a hardware level.

scratchfi 4y ago

I haven't been happy with my work Lenovo laptop. (New release in the last year or two) The fans sounds like a jet at takeoff thrust, thermals aren't great, and the dock glitches and disconnects monitors frequently. Mine had an an early-life screen failure too.

vngzs 4y ago

I have this laptop. The connection between the charger and the battery died, roughly 13 months in. I met another tech worker who had this laptop. Also ran Linux on it, like me. They complained that the connection between the charger and the battery failed and the laptop is now bricked. The laptop was a dream before that. But the battery->charger connection (which is just USB3) is painfully unreliable - buyer beware.

pyrophane 4y ago

One thing I will say about the Gen 10 that most of the reviews also caught is that the battery life is a step down from the gen 9 because of the decision to switch to the Intel P-series processor. If you prefer longer battery life, you can pick up a gen 9 for less money, which is what I did.

taxyz 4y ago

Lenovo has a tool for exploring their bios for particular systems: https://download.lenovo.com/bsco/index.html https://download.lenovo.com/bsco/index.html Not sure why the subdomain is download because you do not have to download anything. This particular laptop supports s3 sleep (under config > sleep state).

kristianp 4y ago
Just having a look at that, it's a simulator for BIOS their setup utils. There's a sleep state called "S3 Linux" in the P14s Gen 3, described as: "optimised sleep state for versions of linux that are not compatible with suspend-to-idle"

elif 4y ago

Personally, I am growing comfortable with Windows Subsystem for Linux. Performance is fine for emacs, I don't have to worry about device drivers, I can run any form of application, I can treat the windows hypervisor as a remote client or as a VM for isolation purposes, I can run multiple versions of Linux, even at the same time, and it isn't as clunky and slow as using a traditional VM like virtualbox. The only thing that makes me jealous is when this post talks about quiet fans, and the battery benefits of Linux. Edit: I forgot to add one more benefit I ran into recently. If you need one version of a library or or tool for one project, and another version for another project, you don't have to monkey around with path scripts and bashrc to replace versions on the fly, you can just have an ideal environment for each project.

seabrookmx 4y ago
> battery benefits of Linux In my experience, battery life under windows is far superior due to more mature drivers. I'm lucky to get 4hrs out of my Framework laptop (with the i5-1240p) whereas Windows nets 6+. And that's with a 6.x kernel that has 12th gen support (I'm running Fedora as per Framework's recommendation). My old XPS 15 had much better battery life but a similar drop (percentage wise) running Ubuntu.

JJMalina 4y ago

Glad to see this article. I've been running Xubuntu on a Lenovo X1 Carbon 5th gen with since 2016 with no issues. Totally wiped Windows from the beginning. The only frustration I have is when using a non-hidpi external screen I have to change the dpi to match what the external screen is capable, so the laptop screen effectively becomes very small.

FpUser 4y ago

I think 32GB RAM maximum and highest mark somehow do not match.

ElijahLynn 4y ago

The X1 Yoga is better in my opinion. It is nearly the same as a Carbon but is a convertible and also has a touchscreen w/stylus.

ElijahLynn 4y ago

I just ordered an X1 Yoga (like a carbon but convertible w/touchscreen + stylus) and was able to order it with Ubuntu Linux on it. Gonna wipe it and put Arch anyways, but it was $100 cheaper as there was no Windows license fee.

rocket_surgeron 4y ago

Lenovo's anti-consumer behavior makes Apple look like a charity with a perfect rating on charitynavigator.org. Any time I'm at an open source thing and see someone with a Lenovo I smirk because they're oiling the gears the machine they're also raging against.

ofalkaed 4y ago

The quick version without all the vague distro talk and a few more Thinkpads thrown in. Current T14/X1/X13 laptops need at least a 5.19 kernel to work but 5.19 is buggy on them in multiple ways and should be avoided. 6.x kernels are very solid with these Thinkpads. Slackware current on my X13 was the most effortless linux install I have ever had on a Thinkpad, everything worked from the start.