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I'm totally fine with raising their paychecks by a factor of 10 for their loss of privacy if we implement this... the amount of money we'd save elswhere dur to

I'm totally fine with raising their paychecks by a factor of 10 for their loss of privacy if we implement this... the amount of money we'd save elswhere dur to less corruption would be a few orders of magnitude higher.

cft 4y ago
You don't even need to raise it that much. One can implement onlyfans.com business model when their electorate pays to them for access to their cam feeds.
- cafeinux 4y ago
  The richer would be the ones that do things on their livefeed that attract people. Do you want politicians orgies? Because that's how you get politicians orgies. The poorer politicians would be the perfectly honest and completely boring ones, not a great way to encourage honesty.
  - b112 4y ago
    Do you want politicians orgies? Now wait, let not be too hasty here. We should whiteboard this out. There are a lot of moving parts, and shutting down an idea too soon, would be wrong. So to start, uh, just wondering, which politicians? Also, what would they be wearing? Again, only asking for an accurate framing here.
    - mikrotikker 4y ago
      Lauren Boebert is secretly a total hottie. But I really wanna see Mitch McConnell shake what he got.
      - Loughla 4y ago
        I know that HN isn't supposed to be for jokes, but legit, I assume that a naked Mitch McConnell looks like the nudist alien scammers from futurama. https://futurama.fandom.com/wiki/Sprunjer?file=Srunger.png https://futurama.fandom.com/wiki/Sprunjer?file=Srunger.png
        stametseater 4y ago
        Or Dana Carvey trying to get into the Turtle Club.
notahacker 4y ago
We've already had some experiments about "what if we select politicians based on their love for being on TV and their lack of concern about concealing their corruption" and the results aren't good...
- ben_w 4y ago
  Public figures kinda need to be narcissistic just to be able to face seeing themselves so much each day. And that includes the good ones. I'm more worried about the fact that humans are, collectively at least, so hypocritical. For the following examples, bare in mind that neither I nor the general public understand the actual laws, so any nits you pick need to be the kind that even a non-lawyer will accept: I'm old enough to remember Clinton being impeached for lying about his affairs, and yet Republicans (collectively) are defending Trump for lying about affairs. Or vice versa, Trump's classified documents at home vs. Biden's. Probably the same elsewhere, but I don't trust that I'm not part of the problem with regard to UK politics (where I'm from), and my German isn't good enough to pay attention to what's happening where I now live.
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    >I'm more worried about the fact that humans are, collectively at least, so hypocritical. Humans are violent too. If we tried as hard to train it out of people we'd make good progress.
    - omniglottal 4y ago
      Violence serves a purpose - although it doesn't serve this purppose well, it stands in place as a last resort. Removing that resort, what do you propose replaces it for the purposes which must be served?
      - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
        I meant that we could train out hypocrisy the same way we train out most of the violence.
lenkite 4y ago
The Singapore System - their ministers are the highest paid in the world and it (apparently) makes a difference.
- taink 4y ago
  Singapore remains an authoritarian state, not a democracy. It allowed for massive progress in a difficult political climate but it does so at the cost of a good amount of political freedoms. That might be fine, but not in all cultures. I also challenge the notion that higher pay leads to less corruption. If so, then why are Denmark, Finland, New Zealand and Norway ranked higher in the corruption perception index[1], when they are paid much, much less annually (especially Finland)[2]? [1] https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022 https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022 (https://archive.ph/fabjP https://archive.ph/fabjP) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_salaries_of_heads_of_state_and_government https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_salaries_of_heads_of_s... (https://archive.ph/XGbpO https://archive.ph/XGbpO)
  - lordnacho 4y ago
    But that is a perceptions index. People are going to answer based on what they heard about the previous year's index. Of course it's hard to find the "actual corruption" figures, but that doesn't mean the perceptions index is of any value.
    - taink 4y ago
      This is the best authoritative source that I could find. The few assertions I've seen that Singapore is less corrupt than most european and north american countries quote Transparency International as a source, so I assume it might be an acceptable one. They also supplement their findings with a "GCB" survey[1] (which is less recent), and given enough time I guess there are other sources one could find. These are surveys, so there's a limit to how reliable their results can be. However, I find surveys are a pretty good start when you need to get a general idea on how something does and you can't just measure it. How you value that is up to you, that's why I quote it in my comment. [1] https://www.transparency.org/en/gcb https://www.transparency.org/en/gcb
darepublic 4y ago
I don't think we should impose loss of personal privacy.. even in this scenario a politician acting impeccably could fall to one one signalling for part of the public's irrational approval, like two gladiators in the colosseum. The decisions of the politician's themselves need to somehow be opened up for scrutiny as they are, artifacts independent of their origin. Like code being submitted for review, and being subjected to human + automated checks. I know people will decry this as naive / impractical to implement but I still think it has got a better shot then 'create dystopian state where politicians are monitored 24 / 7, and trust the ever rational cooler heads of the public mob to (a) properly reward the good and punish the bad, (b) advocate for the best policies'. Not to mention that if such a system were invented then politicians were just get corrupted in advance of their career, in secret.

cft 4y ago

You don't even need to raise it that much. One can implement onlyfans.com business model when their electorate pays to them for access to their cam feeds.

cafeinux 4y ago
The richer would be the ones that do things on their livefeed that attract people. Do you want politicians orgies? Because that's how you get politicians orgies. The poorer politicians would be the perfectly honest and completely boring ones, not a great way to encourage honesty.
- b112 4y ago
  Do you want politicians orgies? Now wait, let not be too hasty here. We should whiteboard this out. There are a lot of moving parts, and shutting down an idea too soon, would be wrong. So to start, uh, just wondering, which politicians? Also, what would they be wearing? Again, only asking for an accurate framing here.
  - mikrotikker 4y ago
    Lauren Boebert is secretly a total hottie. But I really wanna see Mitch McConnell shake what he got.
    - Loughla 4y ago
      I know that HN isn't supposed to be for jokes, but legit, I assume that a naked Mitch McConnell looks like the nudist alien scammers from futurama. https://futurama.fandom.com/wiki/Sprunjer?file=Srunger.png https://futurama.fandom.com/wiki/Sprunjer?file=Srunger.png
      - stametseater 4y ago
        Or Dana Carvey trying to get into the Turtle Club.

notahacker 4y ago

We've already had some experiments about "what if we select politicians based on their love for being on TV and their lack of concern about concealing their corruption" and the results aren't good...

ben_w 4y ago
Public figures kinda need to be narcissistic just to be able to face seeing themselves so much each day. And that includes the good ones. I'm more worried about the fact that humans are, collectively at least, so hypocritical. For the following examples, bare in mind that neither I nor the general public understand the actual laws, so any nits you pick need to be the kind that even a non-lawyer will accept: I'm old enough to remember Clinton being impeached for lying about his affairs, and yet Republicans (collectively) are defending Trump for lying about affairs. Or vice versa, Trump's classified documents at home vs. Biden's. Probably the same elsewhere, but I don't trust that I'm not part of the problem with regard to UK politics (where I'm from), and my German isn't good enough to pay attention to what's happening where I now live.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  >I'm more worried about the fact that humans are, collectively at least, so hypocritical. Humans are violent too. If we tried as hard to train it out of people we'd make good progress.
  - omniglottal 4y ago
    Violence serves a purpose - although it doesn't serve this purppose well, it stands in place as a last resort. Removing that resort, what do you propose replaces it for the purposes which must be served?
    - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
      I meant that we could train out hypocrisy the same way we train out most of the violence.

lenkite 4y ago

The Singapore System - their ministers are the highest paid in the world and it (apparently) makes a difference.

taink 4y ago
Singapore remains an authoritarian state, not a democracy. It allowed for massive progress in a difficult political climate but it does so at the cost of a good amount of political freedoms. That might be fine, but not in all cultures. I also challenge the notion that higher pay leads to less corruption. If so, then why are Denmark, Finland, New Zealand and Norway ranked higher in the corruption perception index[1], when they are paid much, much less annually (especially Finland)[2]? [1] https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022 https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022 (https://archive.ph/fabjP https://archive.ph/fabjP) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_salaries_of_heads_of_state_and_government https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_salaries_of_heads_of_s... (https://archive.ph/XGbpO https://archive.ph/XGbpO)
- lordnacho 4y ago
  But that is a perceptions index. People are going to answer based on what they heard about the previous year's index. Of course it's hard to find the "actual corruption" figures, but that doesn't mean the perceptions index is of any value.
  - taink 4y ago
    This is the best authoritative source that I could find. The few assertions I've seen that Singapore is less corrupt than most european and north american countries quote Transparency International as a source, so I assume it might be an acceptable one. They also supplement their findings with a "GCB" survey[1] (which is less recent), and given enough time I guess there are other sources one could find. These are surveys, so there's a limit to how reliable their results can be. However, I find surveys are a pretty good start when you need to get a general idea on how something does and you can't just measure it. How you value that is up to you, that's why I quote it in my comment. [1] https://www.transparency.org/en/gcb https://www.transparency.org/en/gcb

darepublic 4y ago

I don't think we should impose loss of personal privacy.. even in this scenario a politician acting impeccably could fall to one one signalling for part of the public's irrational approval, like two gladiators in the colosseum. The decisions of the politician's themselves need to somehow be opened up for scrutiny as they are, artifacts independent of their origin. Like code being submitted for review, and being subjected to human + automated checks. I know people will decry this as naive / impractical to implement but I still think it has got a better shot then 'create dystopian state where politicians are monitored 24 / 7, and trust the ever rational cooler heads of the public mob to (a) properly reward the good and punish the bad, (b) advocate for the best policies'. Not to mention that if such a system were invented then politicians were just get corrupted in advance of their career, in secret.