7 ms·

I disagree with that. First, Faang salaries are way over middle class. If inflation reduced your salary by a bit, think about how much more ia reduction impacte

by rnk 4y ago

I disagree with that. First, Faang salaries are way over middle class. If inflation reduced your salary by a bit, think about how much more ia reduction impacted the salary of an average middle class person. As you make more money you have more disposable income so the impact of little bit less money when you make more is smaller.

fzeroracer 4y ago
FAANG salaries are not over middle class and this kind of rhetoric is used to fuel class warfare by businesses and companies among the poor and middle classes. The fact is that in the modern day even on a FAANG salary a lot of people cannot afford to buy a home of their own. And the salary band at those companies is incredibly wide, owing in fact due to the wide disconnect in salary between engineers, middle management and the c-suite.
- VirusNewbie 4y ago
  What are you talking about? Maybe for entry level with only a couple years they couldn’t own a home but come on? You think there are mid/senior level people with 5+ years working there who cannot afford a home??
  - photonbeam 4y ago
    Yes there are, as the homes they want to buy are near work and those are really expensive
- jghn 4y ago
  The median *household* income in the US is around 80K. That's well below the *starting* income for a FAANG engineer.
  - triceratops 4y ago
    That's the point GP is making. FAANG salaries aren't too high, median salaries are too low.
    - fzeroracer 4y ago
      Yes, thank you. That's the exact point I've been getting at. Median salaries for workers in the US is far too low and should be brought up, rather than fighting to bring FAANG engineers lower which is exactly what businesses want.
      - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        >Median salaries for workers in the US is far too low and should be brought up But how do we do this?
      - jghn 4y ago
        I agree with this, but that's a separate argument. I suppose if one viewed "middle class" as a state of being and not as in middle/median, then sure.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - satvikpendem 4y ago
    I think the point they're making is that salaries should be higher, given the discrepancy between productivity and pay that started appearing in the 70s [0]. [0] https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/
- fbdab103 4y ago
  Uhhhh, if I go to levels right now, the Google Entry Level L3 total comp is $190k[0]. The US median household income in 2021 was ~$71k [1]. Where do you think the middle class line lands? [0] : https://www.levels.fyi/companies/google/salaries/software-engineer https://www.levels.fyi/companies/google/salaries/software-en... [1] : https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2022/demo/p60-276.html https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2022/demo/p60-27...
  - fzeroracer 4y ago
    Above what even your average senior engineer is making. I'm not a FAANG worker; I make well below what they make. I simply do not ascribe to the crab-in-a-pot mentality that a lot of posters here seem to have in attempt to further divide what is ultimately a large range of middle class workers. Total compensation also only matters depending on the total CoL because a lot of those companies require you to live in areas with incredibly high rent, especially with the attempt to remove remote work. And even with FAANG the salary between an engineer at Amazon and one at Google is going to vastly differ, especially depending on what part of Amazon you're working at. For reference, Pew Research defines middle class as 1.66 - 2x the median salary in America. That would make most tech workers middle class, and FAANG engineers in the lower upper class. In places like San Francisco where the cost of living is significantly higher, you would need to be earning ~230k a year to be in the upper middle class [1]. Though that's by one narrow definition. The fact is that even your senior tech worker making ~200k a year is barely a blip on the radar compared to how much executives and investors are stealing. If you want to fall for their rhetoric and wonder why things are getting worse for everyone then you shouldn't be surprised. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/02/middle-class-income-in-major-us-cities.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/02/middle-class-income-in-major...
    - ZephyrBlu 4y ago
      The median income in the US is $41k for all workers and $56k for full-time, year-round workers. $71k is the average household income. https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/2021/demo/p60-273/figure4.pdf https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizat... In your CNBC article everything is based on household income. Many SWEs would be classed as not middle class based on their own income let alone household income. The median SWE salary in the US is $110k: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/Software-developers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/.... If you take increased salary due to location and partner salary into account, the majority of SWEs are easily upper middle class. > In places like San Francisco where the cost of living is significantly higher, you would need to be earning ~230k a year to be in the upper middle class A solo entry level FAANG engineer basically qualifies for upper middle class. Add a partner and you're definitely upper middle class. > And even with FAANG the salary between an engineer at Amazon and one at Google is going to vastly differ, especially depending on what part of Amazon you're working at What are you talking about with "especially depending on what part of Amazon you're working at"? As far as I've seen Retail vs AWS doesn't have different comp. Google and Amazon also have pretty similar comp: https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Google,Amazon&track=Software%20Engineer https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Google,Amazon&track=Software.... Their comp bands likely have a lot of overlap. Differences are more likely to be based on negotiation than working for Google vs Amazon.
seanmcdirmid 4y ago
Our buying power isn’t much more than our parents, it is noticeably less when it comes to housing. My dad got a mortgage on a $100k home in the late 80s when he was making above that per year contracting. There is simply no way a FAANG job at below director level would allow for that. From that perspective, yes a lot of people make less, but that just means life is becoming impossible for most people making normal salaries.
- satvikpendem 4y ago
  That's due to NIMBYism and people not wanting to construct more housing, not due to wages per se.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    > That's due to NIMBYism and people not wanting to construct more housing, not due to wages per se. Not really. Housing is simply becoming more expensive to construct, even in places where land is cheap and building regulations are open. But let's say even if NIMBYism was significant factor: why are all the good jobs where people want to live correlated with higher factors of NIMBYism? Why doesn't everyone just want to move to Houston (which is losing population these days, even if the metro is gaining)?
    - satvikpendem 4y ago
      > why are all the good jobs where people want to live correlated with higher factors of NIMBYism? What a strange question, as if it reverses the correlation. People who buy a property before new people come in, such as SF during the 60s, will inevitably see their home prices rise and want to capture that value without wanting to build more housing. The places where people don't want to live simply...don't see this phenomenon, because people don't want to live there. Of course supply and demand still matters, you can't just build houses in some random part of the country and expect people to move there. You need to build where people want to move. This doesn't really have to do anything with not building more housing, and indeed NIMBYism explicitly denies housing construction approvals.

by rnk 4y ago

fzeroracer 4y ago

FAANG salaries are not over middle class and this kind of rhetoric is used to fuel class warfare by businesses and companies among the poor and middle classes. The fact is that in the modern day even on a FAANG salary a lot of people cannot afford to buy a home of their own. And the salary band at those companies is incredibly wide, owing in fact due to the wide disconnect in salary between engineers, middle management and the c-suite.

VirusNewbie 4y ago
What are you talking about? Maybe for entry level with only a couple years they couldn’t own a home but come on? You think there are mid/senior level people with 5+ years working there who cannot afford a home??
- photonbeam 4y ago
  Yes there are, as the homes they want to buy are near work and those are really expensive
jghn 4y ago
The median *household* income in the US is around 80K. That's well below the *starting* income for a FAANG engineer.
- triceratops 4y ago
  That's the point GP is making. FAANG salaries aren't too high, median salaries are too low.
  - fzeroracer 4y ago
    Yes, thank you. That's the exact point I've been getting at. Median salaries for workers in the US is far too low and should be brought up, rather than fighting to bring FAANG engineers lower which is exactly what businesses want.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      >Median salaries for workers in the US is far too low and should be brought up But how do we do this?
    - jghn 4y ago
      I agree with this, but that's a separate argument. I suppose if one viewed "middle class" as a state of being and not as in middle/median, then sure.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- satvikpendem 4y ago
  I think the point they're making is that salaries should be higher, given the discrepancy between productivity and pay that started appearing in the 70s [0]. [0] https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/
fbdab103 4y ago
Uhhhh, if I go to levels right now, the Google Entry Level L3 total comp is $190k[0]. The US median household income in 2021 was ~$71k [1]. Where do you think the middle class line lands? [0] : https://www.levels.fyi/companies/google/salaries/software-engineer https://www.levels.fyi/companies/google/salaries/software-en... [1] : https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2022/demo/p60-276.html https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2022/demo/p60-27...
- fzeroracer 4y ago
  Above what even your average senior engineer is making. I'm not a FAANG worker; I make well below what they make. I simply do not ascribe to the crab-in-a-pot mentality that a lot of posters here seem to have in attempt to further divide what is ultimately a large range of middle class workers. Total compensation also only matters depending on the total CoL because a lot of those companies require you to live in areas with incredibly high rent, especially with the attempt to remove remote work. And even with FAANG the salary between an engineer at Amazon and one at Google is going to vastly differ, especially depending on what part of Amazon you're working at. For reference, Pew Research defines middle class as 1.66 - 2x the median salary in America. That would make most tech workers middle class, and FAANG engineers in the lower upper class. In places like San Francisco where the cost of living is significantly higher, you would need to be earning ~230k a year to be in the upper middle class [1]. Though that's by one narrow definition. The fact is that even your senior tech worker making ~200k a year is barely a blip on the radar compared to how much executives and investors are stealing. If you want to fall for their rhetoric and wonder why things are getting worse for everyone then you shouldn't be surprised. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/02/middle-class-income-in-major-us-cities.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/02/middle-class-income-in-major...
  - ZephyrBlu 4y ago
    The median income in the US is $41k for all workers and $56k for full-time, year-round workers. $71k is the average household income. https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/2021/demo/p60-273/figure4.pdf https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizat... In your CNBC article everything is based on household income. Many SWEs would be classed as not middle class based on their own income let alone household income. The median SWE salary in the US is $110k: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/Software-developers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/.... If you take increased salary due to location and partner salary into account, the majority of SWEs are easily upper middle class. > In places like San Francisco where the cost of living is significantly higher, you would need to be earning ~230k a year to be in the upper middle class A solo entry level FAANG engineer basically qualifies for upper middle class. Add a partner and you're definitely upper middle class. > And even with FAANG the salary between an engineer at Amazon and one at Google is going to vastly differ, especially depending on what part of Amazon you're working at What are you talking about with "especially depending on what part of Amazon you're working at"? As far as I've seen Retail vs AWS doesn't have different comp. Google and Amazon also have pretty similar comp: https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Google,Amazon&track=Software%20Engineer https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Google,Amazon&track=Software.... Their comp bands likely have a lot of overlap. Differences are more likely to be based on negotiation than working for Google vs Amazon.

seanmcdirmid 4y ago

Our buying power isn’t much more than our parents, it is noticeably less when it comes to housing. My dad got a mortgage on a $100k home in the late 80s when he was making above that per year contracting. There is simply no way a FAANG job at below director level would allow for that. From that perspective, yes a lot of people make less, but that just means life is becoming impossible for most people making normal salaries.

satvikpendem 4y ago
That's due to NIMBYism and people not wanting to construct more housing, not due to wages per se.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  > That's due to NIMBYism and people not wanting to construct more housing, not due to wages per se. Not really. Housing is simply becoming more expensive to construct, even in places where land is cheap and building regulations are open. But let's say even if NIMBYism was significant factor: why are all the good jobs where people want to live correlated with higher factors of NIMBYism? Why doesn't everyone just want to move to Houston (which is losing population these days, even if the metro is gaining)?
  - satvikpendem 4y ago
    > why are all the good jobs where people want to live correlated with higher factors of NIMBYism? What a strange question, as if it reverses the correlation. People who buy a property before new people come in, such as SF during the 60s, will inevitably see their home prices rise and want to capture that value without wanting to build more housing. The places where people don't want to live simply...don't see this phenomenon, because people don't want to live there. Of course supply and demand still matters, you can't just build houses in some random part of the country and expect people to move there. You need to build where people want to move. This doesn't really have to do anything with not building more housing, and indeed NIMBYism explicitly denies housing construction approvals.