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An ancient Indian Buddhist monk buried in Athens

287 points by gumby 4y ago

mikeponders 4y ago
Funnily, few Athenians know about this, but if you ask them if they know about an "Indian Tomb", they will most probably know the nickname of Panathinaikos basketball indoor arena: https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κλειστό_Γυμναστήριο_Παύλος_Γιαννακόπουλος https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κλειστό_Γυμναστήριο_Παύλος_Για...
nopin 4y ago
when I asked chatgpt. it said Sumerians had no concept of zero. i asked who is attributed to the invention of zero, it says that it's Ancient India in 5th Century. then formulation by Brahmagupta in 5th Century.
miles 4y ago
Reminded of this Wikipedia entry: Greco-Buddhism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism
- macrolocal 4y ago
  Their influence feels notable in Pseudo-Dionysius, especially his Mystical Theology.
  - Archelaos 4y ago
    I do not think that there is a direct connection here. There are some vague similarities to some Buddhist doctrins, but that is only very much on the surface. The whole train of thought of Pseudo-Dionysius is Neoplatonic. Pseudo-Dionysius is primarily exploring the limits of theological speech and doctrin with the toolset of "classical" European philosophy and his contemporary theology. Much is just a "Christianed" paraphrase of Proclos.
    - libraryatnight 4y ago
      What would I read to better understand what you're discussing here?
      - kelseyfrog 4y ago
        If you're the kind of person who likes reading original sources, you're in luck[1]! > The surviving writings are four treatises and ten letters. The four treatises are: 1) On the divine names (DN) (Peri theion onomaton, in Greek; De Divinis Nominibus, in Latin), the longest work of thirteen chapters that deals with affirmative or kataphatic theology, namely, the names attributed to God the creator in scripture and also in pagan texts, but also exploring the limits of language and therefore also involving negative or apophatic theology. 2) On the celestial hierarchy (CH) (Peri tes ouranias hierarchias, in Greek; De coelesti hierarchia, in Latin), a work that examines how the nine choirs of angels (in scripture) are to be understood in lifting us up to God. 3) On the ecclesiastical hierarchy (EH) (Peri tes ekklestiastikes hierarchias, in Greek; De ecclesiastica hierarchia, in Latin) that examines the various orders and liturgy of the church as relating us to God through a divinely appointed but human hierarchy. And 4) On Mystical theology (MT) (Peri mustikes theologias, in Greek; De mystica theologia, in Latin), a brief but powerful work that deals with negative or apophatic theology and in which theology becomes explicitly “mystical” for the first time in history (By mystical here we do not mean an extraordinary or private experience of transcending one’s self in the modern sense of the term, but simply “hidden”. On this see Bouyer, 1949; Vanneste, 1959; McGinn 1994). There follow ten letters that provide helpful comments upon topics in the above four treatises, especially letter 9 on what Dionysius calls symbolic theology of which works 2) and 3) above (CH; EH) form a substantial part. The ten letters appear to be arranged in a roughly hierarchical order, letters 1–4 being addressed to a monk (a certain Gaius, also the name of one or more of St. Paul’s companions), letter 5 to a deacon, letter 6 to a priest, and letters 7 and 9 to hierarchs or bishops. Letter 8 disrupts this order since it is addressed to a monk charged with disrupting the hierarchical order itself! I'd expect the Secret History of Western Esotericism Podcast(SHWEP) to cover him at some point in the near future, but the host hasn't quiet reached that point in the timeline yet. When he does, expect a much more digestible source of information. 1. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pseudo-dionysius-areopagite/#ReaDioWor https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pseudo-dionysius-areopagi...
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  Were there not Buddhist monks in Egypt too at some point?
  - rjknight 4y ago
    These people, from whom we get the modern usage of the term "therapy": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutae
    - DiscourseFan 4y ago
      I'm writing a whole thesis right now on the connections between Ancient Indian Philosophy and Psychoanaylsis. It's almost done, maybe I'll post it here for you guys to read.
      - RugnirViking 4y ago
        I'd be interested in that!
  - jaldhar 4y ago
    Yes. Romaka in Sanskrit literature is Egyptian Alexandria not Rome as one might think. It was the major port of trade between East and West during the Graeco-Roman era and an intellectual center thanks to the library. Indian philosophers were known to have been present there. (Though, again, we don’t precisely precisely know if they were Buddhists or some other sect.)
- jrumbut 4y ago
  I stumbled on this article by accident some time ago, and I can't recommend it enough. I'd be interested to hear it appraised by someone whose knowledge of the subject didn't come (primarily) from Wikipedia.
- felipeerias 4y ago
  This passage from Peter Brown's "The Rise of Western Christendom" describes cultural exchanges between Asia, Europe, and the Mediterranean a few centuries later: By the year 700 Christian communities were scattered throughout the known world, from Ireland to Central Asia. Archaeologists have discovered fragments of Christian texts which speak of basic Christian activities pursued in the same manner from the Atlantic to the edge of China. Both in County Antrim, in Northern Ireland, and in Panjikent, east of Samarkand, fragmentary copybooks from around A.D. 700 – wax on wood for Ireland, broken potsherds for Central Asia – contain lines copied from the Psalms of David. In both milieux, something very similar was happening. Schoolboys, whose native languages were Irish in Antrim and Soghdian in Panjikent, tried to make their own, by this laborious method, the Latin and the Syriac versions, respectively, of what had become a truly international, sacred text – the “Holy Scriptures” of the Christians.
jaldhar 4y ago
The individual named in the article was a shramana of some type but more likely to have been a Jain than a Buddhist IMO. Customs such as going about naked and ritual suicide are more established amongst Jains (though not completely unknown amongst Buddhists.) The area around Baruch is a stronghold of Jainism to this day.
- dhruval 4y ago
  For people that didn't make the connection, the inscription says "Zarmanochegas, of Barygaza" which is the greek name for Baruch. (an ancient port city in Western India)
- bakul 4y ago
  Very rarely jain monks would fast unto death (sallekhana), but not set themselves on fire, as that would be considered a form of violence. And ahimsa (non-violence) is absolutely fundamental to Jainism. Sallekhana would be somewhat akin to maha-samadhi in Hinduism (where the person leaves their body after attaining samadhi). The Śramana (श्रमण) tradition is more common in Jains but can also be in Buddhists.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
amriksohata 4y ago
Many Indians have folklore stories of Jesus visiting India and taking a mix of Buddhist literature, even early days Christianity believed in reincarnation until it was removed. And of course Buddhism took its roots from Hinduism
- edgyquant 4y ago
  > early days Christianity believed in reincarnation until it was removed. I’ve never heard of this, do you have some further reading?
  - amriksohata 4y ago
    Lots of evidence early Christians believed in it just a sample: https://epubs.utah.edu/index.php/historia/article/view/578#:~:text=Although%20the%20idea%20of%20reincarnation,as%20Valentinus%20and%20Basilides%20of https://epubs.utah.edu/index.php/historia/article/view/578#:...
    - Bootvis 4y ago
      Your earlier comment generalises a bit too far though. Some early christians is not the same as early Christianity. Interesting fact nonetheless.
  - qersist3nce 4y ago
    I'm interested in this too. I've heard an account, that some Byzantine queen-consort was told by a soothsayer that she (the queen) in her pervious life, was a witch. So the queen asked/persuaded the king to remove this from Christianity.
  - gumby 4y ago
    I admit I’m not too well versed in the literature but I think I learned in world civilization class that one of their gods came back to life (and opened its own tomb and walked out) after ritual execution by the Romans. That puts reincarnation at the center of the story.
qersist3nce 4y ago
Why the ancient world seems mysterious and completely orthogonal to our modern ways? At some point in history, "something" happened, I don't know what. Like Augustus a Roman emperor, was initiated into the mystery of two goddesses? What was that? The Sage caste of india could just decide to self-immolate? Why not other people of india and why certain caste did stuff? Why Marcus Aurelius was so wise and unique? Why later kings and heads of states and general people were not like this?
- BeFlatXIII 4y ago
  > Why later kings and heads of states and general people were not like this? Because we only remember the idealized propaganda of their self-images.
- lostlogin 4y ago
  > The Sage caste of india could just decide to self-immolate? Why not other people of india and why certain caste did stuff? I think others did it too (or had it done to them?). I’m not expert and risk mangling a description of the ritual, but Sati/Suttee was where widows sat on their husbands funeral pyre or were buried alive. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice)
  - jaldhar 4y ago
    The Greek authors naturally were not completely versed in the ins and outs of Indian traditions so they confused different social phenomena. There was no “Sage caste” but there were different orders of monks following different philosophies. They are loosely grouped together as Shramanas and they generally believed that this world was illusionary and full of suffering and the task of religion is to find a way out. Some of the more pessimistic ones thought that the only truly nonviolent way to do it is by suicide. This is an official dogma of Jainism to this day (though Darwin has moderated actual practice considerably.) Sati is a different social custom from a much later time period.
- leroy-is-here 4y ago
  Seeing and sight are two different things and used to be taught as such.
webnrrd2k 4y ago
Alexander the Great started his conquest around 335 bce and made it all the way from Greece, across Persia, and into India. Trade increased, and new greek settlements were set up along the way. There was a big exchange of ideas and culture, including Buddhism being introduced to the West. I think that the exact lineage of a lot of the ideas introduced then has been lost, and it's no longer possible to trace them with great fidelity. But I also think that Indial religion, including Buddhism, has had a great impact on early Western civilization.
- lostlogin 4y ago
  The later history of The British East India Company left me disappointed and angry and what was destroyed and lost in India. I think it was the below book. Key passage from the review “Company officials engaged in a systematic orgy of asset-stripping Bengal, contributing to one of Bengal’s worst famines, killing millions. Rather than organise effective tax or famine relief, as was common among Indian rulers, the Company maintained its tax harvesting to sustain a high share price.” Ultimately their pillaging and destruction damaged the company. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lsereviewofbooks/2020/01/14/book-review-the-anarchy-the-relentless-rise-of-the-east-india-company-by-william-dalrymple/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lsereviewofbooks/2020/01/14/book-rev...
  - nextos 4y ago
    At the start of British colonization in India, India's GDP was ~30% of the world's GDP. This had dropped to 2% by Independence of India in 1947... I think pillaging is an understatement. It was a systematic transfer of wealth, probably like no other.
    - _dain_ 4y ago
      i think the industrial revolution happening in the intervening period might have had a little something to do with that (and don't give me the "bengal was about to industrialize!!!" crap)
      - 4y ago
abc_lisper 4y ago
Buddhist philosophy is practical and seems some what out of sync with the Hindu thought at that time. Buddha lived around the same time as Socrates. I can't help but wonder if some of the ideas were not cross-pollinated. Don't get me wrong. There are many similarities between the cultures, even 1000 years ago. Al-Biruni, an arabic scholar, well versed in Greek thought, said as much. He thought Indians were on par with Greeks in Math and Science, but didn't advance as much because the language(Sanskrit) depends on analogies and metaphors a tad too much ie, not being quantitive and exact. I feel even today, Indian culture relies heavily on analogy.
- blackoil 4y ago
  Greek and Buddhism had lot of interaction and exchange. Though, independently also Buddhism was a disruptive religion in India. It gained lot of prominence because of these differences and Hinduism required a major refactoring to gain back its position.
- Abishek_Muthian 4y ago
  Note that Sanskrit wasn't the only ancient language of the Indian subcontinent; There were various languages & civilizations then as it is now. The article itself mentions about the debate on whether the monk was sent from Tamil kingdom or Punjabi kingdom.
- jojojaf 4y ago
  Phyrro supposedly travelled to India, but he was later than Socrates I think
- gumby 4y ago
  I think the people who settled both regions, bringing the wheel, a language family, and other cultural structures probably left a common foundation that perhaps lead to further parallel development and/or facilitated cross fertilization. India had wide trade and cultural interchange between Southeast Asia, the Middle East, and even the eastern Mediterranean at least as far back back as Harrapan times.
- anukin 4y ago
otikik 4y ago
Exchange student
B1FF_PSUVM 4y ago
If you like this sort of thing, you may enjoy Gore Vidal's Creation book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_(novel) The story follows the adventures of a fictional "Cyrus Spitama", an Achaemenid Persian diplomat of the 6th-5th century BCE who travels the known world comparing the political and religious beliefs of various empires, kingdoms and republics of the time. Over the course of his life, he meets many influential philosophical figures of his time, including Zoroaster, Socrates, Anaxagoras, the Buddha, Mahavira, Lao Tsu, and Confucius. Though vehemently identifying himself as a Persian and speaking disparagingly of the Greeks, he is half-Greek himself – having had a formidable Greek mother.
ummonk 4y ago
One of the frustrating things about cremation being prevalent in many Indians is that it constrains our ability to extract ancient DNA of Indians. In this case if we had a sequencable skeleton it would have been really easy to determine getter he was Punjabi or Tamil.
verisimi 4y ago
> One of these tombs is that of an Indian Buddhist monk. On his tomb was placed this inscription: “Here lies Zarmanochegas, of Barygaza, who according to the ancestral custom of the Indians gave himself immortality.” Why not show a picture of the inscription? Personally, I find it beyond belief that any such details can be read off a tombstone left out in the weather - that they can be preserved for 2000 years. I have been to cemetaries, I have tried to read inscriptions carved in granite (very hard stone) - after 200 years (or possibly far less) it is almost impossible to read anything on the stone. So a picture of the tomb + inscription should be a basic piece of information that is provided to support the story - so we are able to assess just how much reality there is to the claims.
- mikeponders 4y ago
  It seems we know of the inscription from other texts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarmanochegas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarmanochegas
  - verisimi 4y ago
    Cheers. In that link it reads: > ZARMANOCHEGAS, AN INDIAN, A NATIVE OF BARGOSA, HAVING IMMORTALIZED HIMSELF ACCORDING TO THE CUSTOM OF HIS COUNTRY, HERE LIES not exactly the same text. If you then follow the reference, you get to this page: https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/15A3*.html https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/15... Where we see the phrase discussed by Strabo. He himself says he is relaying the account of Nicolaüs Damascenus. > But one might add to the accounts here given that of Nicolaüs Damascenus. > 73 He says that at Antioch, near Daphnê, he chanced to meet the Indian ambassadors who had p127 been despatched to Caesar Augustus; that the letter plainly indicated more than three ambassadors, but that only three had survived (whom he says he saw), but the rest, mostly by reason of the long journeys, had died; and that the letter was written in Greek on a skin; and that it plainly showed that Porus was the writer, and that, although he was ruler of six hundred kings, still he was anxious to be a friend to Caesar, and was ready, not only to allow him a passage through his country, wherever he wished to go, but also to co-operate with him in anything that was honourable. Nicolaüs says that this was the content of the letter to Caesar, and that the gifts carried to Caesar were presented by eight naked servants, who were clad only in loin-cloths besprinkled with sweet-smelling odours; and that the gifts consisted of the Hermes, 115 a man who was born without arms, whom I myself have seen, and large vipers, and a serpent of ten cubits in length, and a river tortoise three cubits in length, and a partridge larger than a vulture; and they were accompanied also, according to him, by the man who burned himself up at Athens; 720 and that whereas some commit suicide when they suffer adversity, seeking release from the ills at hand, others do so when their lot is happy, as was the case with that man; for, he adds, although that man had fared as he wished up to that time, he thought it necessary then to depart this life, lest something untoward might happen to him if he tarried here; and that therefore he leaped upon the pyre with a laugh, his naked body anointed, wearing only a loin-cloth; and that the p129 following words were inscribed on his tomb: "Here lies Zarmanochegas, 116 an Indian from Bargosa, who immortalised himself in accordance with the ancestral customs of Indians." So, even if we do trust that the account of Stabo's is not a forgery or some other concoction, this is several layers deep into hearsay - the purported event, purportedly witnessed by Nicolaüs Damascenus, that was then faithfully captured by Strabo, that was then faithfully preserved/transcribed etc over tens of hundreds of years. And even then, it doesn't mention the Kerameikos cemetery! Contrast what we see above with the claim in the original article: > The 11-acre archaeological site is filled with tombstones and statues of astonishing design and quality. One of these tombs is that of an Indian Buddhist monk. On his tomb was placed this inscription: “Here lies Zarmanochegas, of Barygaza, who according to the ancestral custom of the Indians gave himself immortality.” Can we really say that one of the tombs *is* that of Zarmanochegas? Is it really unambiguous, with no room for doubt? In all honesty the threshold of evidence historians accept in order to make grand claims, is outrageous. They are simply unable to say they don't know, and can never know. They make up stories, that would never pass muster with anyone with a reasoning mind. I suppose the story gets the tourists in, so there's that. I'm sure a few Indian and Buddhist folk will make a visit on account of this story, and spend a few Euros.

287 points by gumby 4y ago

Funnily, few Athenians know about this, but if you ask them if they know about an "Indian Tomb", they will most probably know the nickname of Panathinaikos basketball indoor arena: https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κλειστό_Γυμναστήριο_Παύλος_Γιαννακόπουλος https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κλειστό_Γυμναστήριο_Παύλος_Για...

nopin 4y ago

when I asked chatgpt. it said Sumerians had no concept of zero. i asked who is attributed to the invention of zero, it says that it's Ancient India in 5th Century. then formulation by Brahmagupta in 5th Century.

miles 4y ago

Reminded of this Wikipedia entry: Greco-Buddhism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism

macrolocal 4y ago
Their influence feels notable in Pseudo-Dionysius, especially his Mystical Theology.
- Archelaos 4y ago
  I do not think that there is a direct connection here. There are some vague similarities to some Buddhist doctrins, but that is only very much on the surface. The whole train of thought of Pseudo-Dionysius is Neoplatonic. Pseudo-Dionysius is primarily exploring the limits of theological speech and doctrin with the toolset of "classical" European philosophy and his contemporary theology. Much is just a "Christianed" paraphrase of Proclos.
  - libraryatnight 4y ago
    What would I read to better understand what you're discussing here?
    - kelseyfrog 4y ago
      If you're the kind of person who likes reading original sources, you're in luck[1]! > The surviving writings are four treatises and ten letters. The four treatises are: 1) On the divine names (DN) (Peri theion onomaton, in Greek; De Divinis Nominibus, in Latin), the longest work of thirteen chapters that deals with affirmative or kataphatic theology, namely, the names attributed to God the creator in scripture and also in pagan texts, but also exploring the limits of language and therefore also involving negative or apophatic theology. 2) On the celestial hierarchy (CH) (Peri tes ouranias hierarchias, in Greek; De coelesti hierarchia, in Latin), a work that examines how the nine choirs of angels (in scripture) are to be understood in lifting us up to God. 3) On the ecclesiastical hierarchy (EH) (Peri tes ekklestiastikes hierarchias, in Greek; De ecclesiastica hierarchia, in Latin) that examines the various orders and liturgy of the church as relating us to God through a divinely appointed but human hierarchy. And 4) On Mystical theology (MT) (Peri mustikes theologias, in Greek; De mystica theologia, in Latin), a brief but powerful work that deals with negative or apophatic theology and in which theology becomes explicitly “mystical” for the first time in history (By mystical here we do not mean an extraordinary or private experience of transcending one’s self in the modern sense of the term, but simply “hidden”. On this see Bouyer, 1949; Vanneste, 1959; McGinn 1994). There follow ten letters that provide helpful comments upon topics in the above four treatises, especially letter 9 on what Dionysius calls symbolic theology of which works 2) and 3) above (CH; EH) form a substantial part. The ten letters appear to be arranged in a roughly hierarchical order, letters 1–4 being addressed to a monk (a certain Gaius, also the name of one or more of St. Paul’s companions), letter 5 to a deacon, letter 6 to a priest, and letters 7 and 9 to hierarchs or bishops. Letter 8 disrupts this order since it is addressed to a monk charged with disrupting the hierarchical order itself! I'd expect the Secret History of Western Esotericism Podcast(SHWEP) to cover him at some point in the near future, but the host hasn't quiet reached that point in the timeline yet. When he does, expect a much more digestible source of information. 1. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pseudo-dionysius-areopagite/#ReaDioWor https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pseudo-dionysius-areopagi...
selimthegrim 4y ago
Were there not Buddhist monks in Egypt too at some point?
- rjknight 4y ago
  These people, from whom we get the modern usage of the term "therapy": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutae
  - DiscourseFan 4y ago
    I'm writing a whole thesis right now on the connections between Ancient Indian Philosophy and Psychoanaylsis. It's almost done, maybe I'll post it here for you guys to read.
    - RugnirViking 4y ago
      I'd be interested in that!
- jaldhar 4y ago
  Yes. Romaka in Sanskrit literature is Egyptian Alexandria not Rome as one might think. It was the major port of trade between East and West during the Graeco-Roman era and an intellectual center thanks to the library. Indian philosophers were known to have been present there. (Though, again, we don’t precisely precisely know if they were Buddhists or some other sect.)
jrumbut 4y ago
I stumbled on this article by accident some time ago, and I can't recommend it enough. I'd be interested to hear it appraised by someone whose knowledge of the subject didn't come (primarily) from Wikipedia.
felipeerias 4y ago
This passage from Peter Brown's "The Rise of Western Christendom" describes cultural exchanges between Asia, Europe, and the Mediterranean a few centuries later: By the year 700 Christian communities were scattered throughout the known world, from Ireland to Central Asia. Archaeologists have discovered fragments of Christian texts which speak of basic Christian activities pursued in the same manner from the Atlantic to the edge of China. Both in County Antrim, in Northern Ireland, and in Panjikent, east of Samarkand, fragmentary copybooks from around A.D. 700 – wax on wood for Ireland, broken potsherds for Central Asia – contain lines copied from the Psalms of David. In both milieux, something very similar was happening. Schoolboys, whose native languages were Irish in Antrim and Soghdian in Panjikent, tried to make their own, by this laborious method, the Latin and the Syriac versions, respectively, of what had become a truly international, sacred text – the “Holy Scriptures” of the Christians.

jaldhar 4y ago

The individual named in the article was a shramana of some type but more likely to have been a Jain than a Buddhist IMO. Customs such as going about naked and ritual suicide are more established amongst Jains (though not completely unknown amongst Buddhists.) The area around Baruch is a stronghold of Jainism to this day.

dhruval 4y ago
For people that didn't make the connection, the inscription says "Zarmanochegas, of Barygaza" which is the greek name for Baruch. (an ancient port city in Western India)
bakul 4y ago
Very rarely jain monks would fast unto death (sallekhana), but not set themselves on fire, as that would be considered a form of violence. And ahimsa (non-violence) is absolutely fundamental to Jainism. Sallekhana would be somewhat akin to maha-samadhi in Hinduism (where the person leaves their body after attaining samadhi). The Śramana (श्रमण) tradition is more common in Jains but can also be in Buddhists.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

amriksohata 4y ago

Many Indians have folklore stories of Jesus visiting India and taking a mix of Buddhist literature, even early days Christianity believed in reincarnation until it was removed. And of course Buddhism took its roots from Hinduism

edgyquant 4y ago
> early days Christianity believed in reincarnation until it was removed. I’ve never heard of this, do you have some further reading?
- amriksohata 4y ago
  Lots of evidence early Christians believed in it just a sample: https://epubs.utah.edu/index.php/historia/article/view/578#:~:text=Although%20the%20idea%20of%20reincarnation,as%20Valentinus%20and%20Basilides%20of https://epubs.utah.edu/index.php/historia/article/view/578#:...
  - Bootvis 4y ago
    Your earlier comment generalises a bit too far though. Some early christians is not the same as early Christianity. Interesting fact nonetheless.
- qersist3nce 4y ago
  I'm interested in this too. I've heard an account, that some Byzantine queen-consort was told by a soothsayer that she (the queen) in her pervious life, was a witch. So the queen asked/persuaded the king to remove this from Christianity.
- gumby 4y ago
  I admit I’m not too well versed in the literature but I think I learned in world civilization class that one of their gods came back to life (and opened its own tomb and walked out) after ritual execution by the Romans. That puts reincarnation at the center of the story.

qersist3nce 4y ago

Why the ancient world seems mysterious and completely orthogonal to our modern ways? At some point in history, "something" happened, I don't know what. Like Augustus a Roman emperor, was initiated into the mystery of two goddesses? What was that? The Sage caste of india could just decide to self-immolate? Why not other people of india and why certain caste did stuff? Why Marcus Aurelius was so wise and unique? Why later kings and heads of states and general people were not like this?

BeFlatXIII 4y ago
> Why later kings and heads of states and general people were not like this? Because we only remember the idealized propaganda of their self-images.
lostlogin 4y ago
> The Sage caste of india could just decide to self-immolate? Why not other people of india and why certain caste did stuff? I think others did it too (or had it done to them?). I’m not expert and risk mangling a description of the ritual, but Sati/Suttee was where widows sat on their husbands funeral pyre or were buried alive. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice)
- jaldhar 4y ago
  The Greek authors naturally were not completely versed in the ins and outs of Indian traditions so they confused different social phenomena. There was no “Sage caste” but there were different orders of monks following different philosophies. They are loosely grouped together as Shramanas and they generally believed that this world was illusionary and full of suffering and the task of religion is to find a way out. Some of the more pessimistic ones thought that the only truly nonviolent way to do it is by suicide. This is an official dogma of Jainism to this day (though Darwin has moderated actual practice considerably.) Sati is a different social custom from a much later time period.
leroy-is-here 4y ago
Seeing and sight are two different things and used to be taught as such.

webnrrd2k 4y ago

Alexander the Great started his conquest around 335 bce and made it all the way from Greece, across Persia, and into India. Trade increased, and new greek settlements were set up along the way. There was a big exchange of ideas and culture, including Buddhism being introduced to the West. I think that the exact lineage of a lot of the ideas introduced then has been lost, and it's no longer possible to trace them with great fidelity. But I also think that Indial religion, including Buddhism, has had a great impact on early Western civilization.

lostlogin 4y ago
The later history of The British East India Company left me disappointed and angry and what was destroyed and lost in India. I think it was the below book. Key passage from the review “Company officials engaged in a systematic orgy of asset-stripping Bengal, contributing to one of Bengal’s worst famines, killing millions. Rather than organise effective tax or famine relief, as was common among Indian rulers, the Company maintained its tax harvesting to sustain a high share price.” Ultimately their pillaging and destruction damaged the company. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lsereviewofbooks/2020/01/14/book-review-the-anarchy-the-relentless-rise-of-the-east-india-company-by-william-dalrymple/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lsereviewofbooks/2020/01/14/book-rev...
- nextos 4y ago
  At the start of British colonization in India, India's GDP was ~30% of the world's GDP. This had dropped to 2% by Independence of India in 1947... I think pillaging is an understatement. It was a systematic transfer of wealth, probably like no other.
  - _dain_ 4y ago
    i think the industrial revolution happening in the intervening period might have had a little something to do with that (and don't give me the "bengal was about to industrialize!!!" crap)
    - 4y ago

abc_lisper 4y ago

Buddhist philosophy is practical and seems some what out of sync with the Hindu thought at that time. Buddha lived around the same time as Socrates. I can't help but wonder if some of the ideas were not cross-pollinated. Don't get me wrong. There are many similarities between the cultures, even 1000 years ago. Al-Biruni, an arabic scholar, well versed in Greek thought, said as much. He thought Indians were on par with Greeks in Math and Science, but didn't advance as much because the language(Sanskrit) depends on analogies and metaphors a tad too much ie, not being quantitive and exact. I feel even today, Indian culture relies heavily on analogy.

blackoil 4y ago
Greek and Buddhism had lot of interaction and exchange. Though, independently also Buddhism was a disruptive religion in India. It gained lot of prominence because of these differences and Hinduism required a major refactoring to gain back its position.
Abishek_Muthian 4y ago
Note that Sanskrit wasn't the only ancient language of the Indian subcontinent; There were various languages & civilizations then as it is now. The article itself mentions about the debate on whether the monk was sent from Tamil kingdom or Punjabi kingdom.
jojojaf 4y ago
Phyrro supposedly travelled to India, but he was later than Socrates I think
gumby 4y ago
I think the people who settled both regions, bringing the wheel, a language family, and other cultural structures probably left a common foundation that perhaps lead to further parallel development and/or facilitated cross fertilization. India had wide trade and cultural interchange between Southeast Asia, the Middle East, and even the eastern Mediterranean at least as far back back as Harrapan times.
anukin 4y ago

otikik 4y ago

Exchange student

B1FF_PSUVM 4y ago

If you like this sort of thing, you may enjoy Gore Vidal's Creation book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_(novel) The story follows the adventures of a fictional "Cyrus Spitama", an Achaemenid Persian diplomat of the 6th-5th century BCE who travels the known world comparing the political and religious beliefs of various empires, kingdoms and republics of the time. Over the course of his life, he meets many influential philosophical figures of his time, including Zoroaster, Socrates, Anaxagoras, the Buddha, Mahavira, Lao Tsu, and Confucius. Though vehemently identifying himself as a Persian and speaking disparagingly of the Greeks, he is half-Greek himself – having had a formidable Greek mother.

ummonk 4y ago

One of the frustrating things about cremation being prevalent in many Indians is that it constrains our ability to extract ancient DNA of Indians. In this case if we had a sequencable skeleton it would have been really easy to determine getter he was Punjabi or Tamil.

verisimi 4y ago

> One of these tombs is that of an Indian Buddhist monk. On his tomb was placed this inscription: “Here lies Zarmanochegas, of Barygaza, who according to the ancestral custom of the Indians gave himself immortality.” Why not show a picture of the inscription? Personally, I find it beyond belief that any such details can be read off a tombstone left out in the weather - that they can be preserved for 2000 years. I have been to cemetaries, I have tried to read inscriptions carved in granite (very hard stone) - after 200 years (or possibly far less) it is almost impossible to read anything on the stone. So a picture of the tomb + inscription should be a basic piece of information that is provided to support the story - so we are able to assess just how much reality there is to the claims.

mikeponders 4y ago
It seems we know of the inscription from other texts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarmanochegas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarmanochegas
- verisimi 4y ago
  Cheers. In that link it reads: > ZARMANOCHEGAS, AN INDIAN, A NATIVE OF BARGOSA, HAVING IMMORTALIZED HIMSELF ACCORDING TO THE CUSTOM OF HIS COUNTRY, HERE LIES not exactly the same text. If you then follow the reference, you get to this page: https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/15A3*.html https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/15... Where we see the phrase discussed by Strabo. He himself says he is relaying the account of Nicolaüs Damascenus. > But one might add to the accounts here given that of Nicolaüs Damascenus. > 73 He says that at Antioch, near Daphnê, he chanced to meet the Indian ambassadors who had p127 been despatched to Caesar Augustus; that the letter plainly indicated more than three ambassadors, but that only three had survived (whom he says he saw), but the rest, mostly by reason of the long journeys, had died; and that the letter was written in Greek on a skin; and that it plainly showed that Porus was the writer, and that, although he was ruler of six hundred kings, still he was anxious to be a friend to Caesar, and was ready, not only to allow him a passage through his country, wherever he wished to go, but also to co-operate with him in anything that was honourable. Nicolaüs says that this was the content of the letter to Caesar, and that the gifts carried to Caesar were presented by eight naked servants, who were clad only in loin-cloths besprinkled with sweet-smelling odours; and that the gifts consisted of the Hermes, 115 a man who was born without arms, whom I myself have seen, and large vipers, and a serpent of ten cubits in length, and a river tortoise three cubits in length, and a partridge larger than a vulture; and they were accompanied also, according to him, by the man who burned himself up at Athens; 720 and that whereas some commit suicide when they suffer adversity, seeking release from the ills at hand, others do so when their lot is happy, as was the case with that man; for, he adds, although that man had fared as he wished up to that time, he thought it necessary then to depart this life, lest something untoward might happen to him if he tarried here; and that therefore he leaped upon the pyre with a laugh, his naked body anointed, wearing only a loin-cloth; and that the p129 following words were inscribed on his tomb: "Here lies Zarmanochegas, 116 an Indian from Bargosa, who immortalised himself in accordance with the ancestral customs of Indians." So, even if we do trust that the account of Stabo's is not a forgery or some other concoction, this is several layers deep into hearsay - the purported event, purportedly witnessed by Nicolaüs Damascenus, that was then faithfully captured by Strabo, that was then faithfully preserved/transcribed etc over tens of hundreds of years. And even then, it doesn't mention the Kerameikos cemetery! Contrast what we see above with the claim in the original article: > The 11-acre archaeological site is filled with tombstones and statues of astonishing design and quality. One of these tombs is that of an Indian Buddhist monk. On his tomb was placed this inscription: “Here lies Zarmanochegas, of Barygaza, who according to the ancestral custom of the Indians gave himself immortality.” Can we really say that one of the tombs *is* that of Zarmanochegas? Is it really unambiguous, with no room for doubt? In all honesty the threshold of evidence historians accept in order to make grand claims, is outrageous. They are simply unable to say they don't know, and can never know. They make up stories, that would never pass muster with anyone with a reasoning mind. I suppose the story gets the tourists in, so there's that. I'm sure a few Indian and Buddhist folk will make a visit on account of this story, and spend a few Euros.