7 ms·
A nice improvement, but maybe too little too late? I mean, what's the point? An ESP32 has 320K SRAM, 448K Flash and a 240 MHz dual core CPU. And it costs peanu
by dale_glass 4y ago
A nice improvement, but maybe too little too late?
I mean, what's the point? An ESP32 has 320K SRAM, 448K Flash and a 240 MHz dual core CPU. And it costs peanuts. That's the competition to beat, and this doesn't reach it, even though the ESP32 came out in 2016.
The Arduino has been resting on its laurels for too long, I'm afraid. There's long been things out there much faster and cheaper, and with wifi out there for a long time.
EDIT: And why not just use one of these, which is already for sale?
https://freematics.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=59 https://freematics.com/store/index.php?route=product/product...
- okl 4y agoI'm not into Arduinos but I think they are not selling their products because they have the largest RAM or the fastest CPU but because of the Arduino IDE, the language and the community.
- dale_glass 4y agoThe ESP32 can be programmed through the Arduino IDE, using the exact same language. I've done that. Now the ESP32 as usually delivered is not pin or voltage compatible, but surely that's not that hard of a problem. Just make an Arduino shaped board for it, and use a level shifter? In fact this very thing seems to exist: https://freematics.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=59 https://freematics.com/store/index.php?route=product/product...
- ta988 4y agoSo now you need to add a level shifer increase the number of mistakes and the risk of ruining your board. Your solution makes life of hobbyists less enjoyable IMHO. The GPIO are not level shifted in the board you link.
- dale_glass 4y agoMaybe that's not the right board, but a level shifter is what, $1 or so? Could be on the board itself easily.
- szundi 4y agoPlease try to imagine you are a begginner again.
- dale_glass 4y agoOf course I don't mean I expect a beginner to get a board made so that they can use a surface mount level shifter for their beginner project. My question here is why the weird approach? Why have two MCUs on a board, and have the one that the user interacts with be the technically inferior one? Why not just make a better version of the ESPRIT? Just add a level shifter to it, and there you go: form factor compatible, 5V compatible, and more powerful than Arduino's not yet released project. And probably cheaper to manufacture than the two MCU design they came up with. And yeah, you can use exactly the same IDE and API for the ESP32.
- numpad0 4y agoRenesas had been trying to get into Arduino market, previously with Gadget Renesas efforts. Arduino is expanding more into (over-bloated...) industrial control applications for heavy industries. There, I would assume, the both parties saw aligned interests to have a Renesas chip in the center of a new Arduino(maybe ARM might be in it too). Performance must have been a non-issue, they make everything from timers for rice cookers to custom ISA smartphone SoCs. It must have been just an option that is good enough, easily available and comfortably low-tech to let to an enthusiast with an SEM in his basement.
- dale_glass 4y agoOkay, now that finally makes some sense! Though does Arduino really amount to something measurable to a giant like Renesas? And I presume that Arduino plans to keep the IDE and API, so not like 99% of people would be learning anything about the details of Renesas' chips.
- hungryforcodes 4y agoWhy would you need to add a level shifter. Almost every single i2c or SPI component I've used works just fine with the ESPs 3.3v or is 3.3v to 5v compatible.
- II2II 4y agoYeap. My first attempts to move away from Arduino were an absolute nightmare, even though I treated it as a development board and had ditched the Arduino libraries. There was too much inconsistent information from the community about third-party STM32 boards. ESP32 boards were okay given my skill level, but I certainly wouldn't recommend them for novices. The relatively recent Pi Pico was a refreshing change due to the consistent documentation, but it is something where you have to be willing to sit down and read the documentation. And that is only considering programming the things, you still have to build something around it. I'm sure there are good alternative to the Arudino out there. Arduino certainly wasn't the first to market with beginner friendly development boards and the popularity of Arudino only attracted more companies to the market. Unfortunately, it would be difficult to figure out who to go with since there is so much meaningless noise out there.
- Avamander 4y agoThe Arduino hardware abstraction layer has really been one of the biggest steps towards a more universal and interoperable set of software for bare silicon. Yet as you experienced, even then it wasn't enough to bridge the gap fully. The fact that we call other boards "Arduino alternatives" is partially a testament to that. (Say, instead of "AVR alternatives") It's certainly not perfect, always the fastest, doesn't expose all the features one might need, but it makes prototyping and portability oh so much easier. I'm glad we have something.
- twarge 4y agoThis was also my path. I'm still surprised that stm32 development is not more widely taught. I'm also surprised that products like the leaflabs maple didn't take over.
- gjsman-1000 4y agoYou assume that technical specifications determine success - which, as Apple has shown, isn’t true. Arduino is still unbeatable for community support, tutorials, and plug-and-play programming.
- mardifoufs 4y agoIs that true outside of the original board? I never see or hear about the newer arduino variants, to the point where I thought they semi-pivoted to become a more enterprise/industrial oriented offering. It might be selection biais, but it's not very hard to gauge "hobby" usage (youtubers, guides, subreddits, forums) and yet even the bluepill or esp32 are much more common in those circles than the newer arduino boards.
- numpad0 4y agoBut can you plug an ESP32 to HEW through the official $1k ICE?
- drivers99 4y agoTrying to understand your statement. What do HEW and ICE stand for? Google isn’t helping.
- II2II 4y agoI assume they are talking about this: https://www.renesas.com/us/en/software-tool/high-performance-embedded-workshop https://www.renesas.com/us/en/software-tool/high-performance... And ICE would be an In-Circuit Emulator.
- dragontamer 4y agoBut an ESP32 can't turn on an 2N7000 MOSFET. 2N7000 is a 5V MOSFET, and is the cheapest one to boot, and one of the easiest to use.
- kayson 4y agoThere are bajillions of mosfets; you can certainly find another one that works even if it's a tiny bit more expensive.
- dragontamer 4y agoSure. So name one, that's cheap, readily available from many manufacturers, through hole, with 100mA+ or so Ids, low enough capacitance to be used with a microcontroller like ESP32. Most of the good MOSFETs I'm aware of are SMT only, which is not beginner friendly. 2N7000 through hole is extremely available damn near everywhere. All companies have a clone of the venerated, classic MOSFET. EDIT: Its also been used in various beginner circuits for 40 years, so you can pickup an old book from the library and see those 2N7000 around and use those designs today. ---------- Honestly, if you're doing through-hole on ESP32, I suggest using a resistor + 2N2222 BJT instead of the MOSFET. But I think 2N7000 is easier (fewer parts, in particular no resistor needed). But that's a 5V design. The 2N2222 also requires you to leak a decent amount of current through the Vbe / Ibe (while 2N7000 is like 1uA or less leak Vgs / Igs). But... 5V and 2N7000 Jellybean + throughole is really easy to use. Its definitely a big advantage to Arduino IMO, and I'm glad that they're keeping the 5V driving capability in this newest version.
- taylorportman 4y agoThere is an IRL series. I just got some IRL540N's https://learnarduinonow.com/2017/06/02/logic-level-mosfets-irl-or-irf.html https://learnarduinonow.com/2017/06/02/logic-level-mosfets-i... But I got arduinos to go with them because I doubt they will work directly from an esp. I think the big reason arduino can get away with charging so much is they must have some sort of educational institution market buying their products. The software and community support that comes with them is nice to have.
- em3rgent0rdr 4y ago"When it comes to hardware compatibility, pinout, voltage and form factor are unchanged from UNO R3, ensuring maximum hardware and electrical compatibility with existing shields and projects."
- eternityforest 4y agoSeems like the big feature is 5v compatibility. Most ESP32 boards don't have 5v level shifting.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago5V is the special feature but it only has 20mA sink/source on two pins. That's not particularly friendly for typical Uno applications.
- mardifoufs 4y agoDoes that mean it can only output 20ma at 5v? Or the opposite?
- kevin_thibedeau 4y agoIt means people are going to blow pins thinking they can drive an LED at 20mA from any output.
- londons_explore 4y agoThe original ATMEGA328p may have said in the datasheet that it could only do 20mA for 2 pins... But in reality, you can short all the pins to GND and then output high on all of them, and the chip survives indefinitely (although does get rather hot!). It's really rather nice and robust.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y agoThe ATmega supports 40mA on any pin. This is about the Renesas part.
- formerly_proven 4y agoI think I killed only one AVR in a long time tinkering. They even tolerate pretty severe over-voltage well, probably because they support EEPROM-style parallel HV programming. However they're also pretty expensive (especially today, an m328p is over five bucks nowadays), and have been for around ten years or more.
- ta988 4y agoPower supply is only up to 16V pins are 3.3V, and it is much more expensive. They are just different products that serve different users. With Arduino you get a 100% working ecosystem there are still a lot of incompatibilities with esp32 (although a lot less these days).
- 0xDEF 4y agoI love the ESP32 and use it as the central gateway/hub in the IoT solutions I develop. However the ESP32 power consumption is too high. TI has an ARM-based wireless sensor platform that can run for years while making measurements every five minutes.
- DeathArrow 4y agoESP has more than ESP32 microcontrollers. They also have lower power microcontrollers and even RISC-V based microcontrollers.
- Avamander 4y agoI've used a lot of them, I've used various boards in education. Few alternatives offer as mature and smooth experience that Arduino (AVR) boards do. That's not to say there aren't some great ones out there, but any stumbling stones as a beginner might as well be cliffs.
- clort 4y agocan you name it please? I'm interested in a hobbyist project and although I haven't got up off my arse yet, I might one day...
- 0xDEF 4y agoLook at TI's CC1310 platform for wireless sensors. There may be newer models of it.
- DeathArrow 4y agoI think Arduino and ESP32 have different goals. One is more of an educational tool targeting children and adults to automate simple stuff and learning to program microcontrollers in a simplified way and the other is focusing on more industrial solutions where performance, price and flexibility matters. So I am not sure they are competitors. Like Intel and Raspberry Pi aren't competitors as they address very different markets.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- zamadatix 4y agoAddressing specific markets only works if you do it uniquely or better. The simplified Arduino tooling works on the ESP32, which is also the cheaper and better option.
- DeathArrow 4y agoGood point. Are there ready made ESP32 boards good for education?
- ThrowawayTestr 4y agoJust google ESP on AliExpress. Tons of different dev boards available.
- adr1an 4y agoNodeMCU ESP32
- lostlogin 4y agoPeople rate the ESPs from DF robot. They aren’t cheap but they also provide support and a good to deal with. https://www.dfrobot.com/ https://www.dfrobot.com/
- swimfar 4y agoBut that Arduino tooling and all the libraries, tutorials, etc. wouldn't exist if nobody had bought Arduinos. If I'm just buying a few boards for personal projects I like to support companies that provide more than just hardware to the maker community.
- Avamander 4y agoThe ESP32 and ESP8266 are significantly more complex and come with a bunch of downsides that make an already difficult venture into the "hardware land" even more so. Watchdog timeout or some other exception, you'll get a stacktrace that requires a fragile Java piece of software to decode, and it only does that to some extent. It's seriously not pleasant. In my anecdotal experience the ESPs are also not as robust against mistreatment as the AVRs are. According to the datasheet they shouldn't survive as much as they seem to. So while the hardware might be better, and there is always better hardware out there, it's sometimes worth to avoid the complexity.
- ThrowawayTestr 4y agoThe ESP is compatible with the Arduino IDE. I've found it as easy to program as any other microcontroller. (Though I have encountered watchdog issues with unoptimized code)
- LeifCarrotson 4y agoAs long as you stay within the guide rails and libraries provided by the IDE. The average user cannot debug the RTOS running on an ESP, a single Cortex-M4 is more complex than an AVR but still understandable down to bare metal by your average enthusiast.
- rolenthedeep 4y agoI'm in the middle of porting a project from arduino to esp-idf. If you want to do anything slightly complex with the Bluetooth stack, those features just don't exist in the arduino core. It's very frustrating.
- LeifCarrotson 4y agoThat's why I typically prefer to build my base application on a standalone processor and export Bluetooth or Wifi duties to an nRF52820 or ATWILC1000. Yes, the processor required to run these network protocols is pretty beefy, so a big and fast chip like those made by Espressif has plenty of capacity to run your own app alongside the big communication stacks, but it's far simpler and more power efficient to let a small and simple Bluetooth chip do only Bluetooth stuff, and power it up or down as needed and talk to it over SPI or whatever from a host processor that you have full control of.
- ChancyChance 4y agoOnce I learned how to use STMCubeMX, I never went back to Arduino. Comparing STM boards with Arduino in terms of price, RAM, Flash, GPIO, analog, ... and R4 looks like Steve Buscemi doing the "hello fellow kids" meme. I think the big win for Arduino was the ecosystem and simplicity, but the big embedded players have invested significantly in this space with tons of code examples compatible with the arduino add ins (STM boards all have the arduino header). ESP doesn't scale. Once you start with STM, you can switch to much more advanced boards with ease, ESP doesn't have the range.
- the__alchemist 4y ago> Once you start with STM, you can switch to much more advanced boards with ease, ESP doesn't have the range. And may be forced to. I still can't get H7s. ESP, nRF and others were barely affected by the shortage.
- wombat_trouble 4y agoArduino never made sense as far as technical specs go. You could always buy more capable and compatible AVR microcontrollers for one tenth the price. In the past decade, the disparity has gotten more dramatic as 8-bit chips have gotten even cheaper and even more capable. Arduino owed its success solely to building a healthy maker ecosystem of folks who simply defaulted to it as a platform, published tutorials, and promoted it through word-of-mouth. That's probably still there. Raspberry Pi had the same thing going on for it, by the way. Marketing / community building trumps technical merit in almost everything, and embedded computing is not an exception. I'm not lamenting this, it's just a fact of life.
- slim 4y agoRaspberry Pi had the same thing Maybe we have an answer here. Raspberry PI ventured in Arduino's market with Pico. Maybe Arduino is reacting to that?
- tgsovlerkhgsel 4y agoWith the massive difference in abilities and price between ESP32 based boards and Arduino, and the increasing number of shields available for common ESP32 boards, I think Arduino has lost a lot of the "community" advantage. It's a shame there isn't a "standard" ESP32 board though. Some of the common boards/kits even have multiple revisions that aren't pin-compatible :(
- unmole 4y ago> You could always buy more capable and compatible AVR microcontrollers for one tenth the price. Were you able to program them without additional (expensive) hardware?
- tzs 4y agoThere are low cost AVR programmers, such as [1]. Similar are available for much less on Aliexpress. You can also easily use an Arduino, a solderless breadboard, a few jumpers and some software as an AVR programmer [2]. [1] https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9825 https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9825 [2] https://www.instructables.com/How-to-Program-an-Attiny85-From-an-Arduino-Uno/ https://www.instructables.com/How-to-Program-an-Attiny85-Fro...
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- RobotToaster 4y agoThis isn't even the fastest arduino, in 2014 there was the edison version that had a dual core 400mhz x86.
- cellularmitosis 4y agoProbably the fastest 5V IO Arduino.
- nyanpasu64 4y agoSelling Arduinos for over $20 is utterly ridiculous when you cam get a Pi Pico for $4, ESP8266 for under $10, or an Arduino clone on AliExpress for under $4.
- rowanG077 4y agoA big disadvantage is that the esp32 has a closed source core.
- tyingq 4y agoThe WiFi Uno R4 also comes with an ESP32, in addition to the ARM processor :) "The WiFi version comes with an Espressif S3 WiFi module"
- jdboyd 4y agoA lot of things Arduino has been putting out recently feels like it might be too little for too late or way to high of a price. What bothers me about this release is that they are re-using the Uno name for a product that doesn't feel at all like and Uno. I don't think they should have used the name Uno unless they were at least sticking with the AVR family and 5V compatibility, and maybe I'd go so far as to say sticking with the ATmega328. On the sticking with a 328 side, I would have liked an Uno R4 that expanded power input supported to 24v, replaced the USB-B with USB-C, could be configured to either 3.3v or 5v (defaulting to 5v). I think moving on to a newer AVR, such as 4808, would be good for an R4 ONLY if the majority of libraries targeting UNO would just work on it. Personally, my favorite was the Leonardo. I have a small bin of boards in the Arduino Pro Micro form factor, except the end G/5v/TX/RX pins have been replaced with a USB connector, and the 328 was replaced with a 32u4, so they are programmed as if they were Leonardos.
- sheepybloke 4y agoFor me, Adafruit ate Arduino’s lunch. In terms of boards, form factor, price, ease of use, there is no comparison. That’s what confuses me about this board: why should I buy this vs any similar Adafruit board?