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"F-35 is bad" is just an internet meme with little to support it.

by u320 4y ago

belter 4y ago
We can revisit it after it is proven in combat, something that still has to happen.
- enkid 4y ago
  What does proven in combat even mean? Win a war against China?
  - melling 4y ago
    [flagged]
- jmvoodoo 4y ago
  F-35s have flown over 1,000 combat sorties. When would you consider it "proven"?
  - belter 4y ago
    Bombing ISIS does not count. Here is an example of something that could really hurt. "...The F-35 can only tolerate supersonic speeds at high altitudes for short bursts before it sustains lasting structural damage and the loss of stealth capabilities..." - https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/five-problems-with-americas-f-35s-now-that-canada-is-buying-its-own-f-35s#:~:text=The%20F%2D35%20can%20only,plans%20to%20correct%20the%20problem https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/five-problems-with-amer....
- chiph 4y ago
  The Israelis have released footage of shooting down two drones, so they have the first kills with the F-35. Obviously this was not against a maneuvering human pilot, but still important. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdSFEpqwA6Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdSFEpqwA6Q
  - FridayoLeary 4y ago
    They also have multiple (unproven but everyone knows who did it) strikes against iranian positions in syria and even in iran itself, it is rumoured. The ability to be invisible to radar is an absolute gamechanger.
    - belter 4y ago
      That just make it difficult to lock on with weapons. They are not invisible and any radar operator would tell you that if they would be allowed... "...Stealth designs minimize an aircraft's radar signature, delaying and sometimes even preventing detection, but because of the physical requirements for tactical jets, stealth fighters can be easily spotted by certain low-frequency radar bands. In fact, it's not even uncommon for air traffic control radar to be able to spot stealth fighters on their scopes. And we're not just talking about when these aircraft are carrying external munitions or fuel tanks, rather, even in full-on "stealth mode," F-22s and F-35s aren't as sneaky as you might think." - https://www.businessinsider.com/radars-can-see-best-stealth-jets-but-cant-stop-them-2022-7?international=true&r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/radars-can-see-best-stealth-...
      - giantrobot 4y ago
        While you're not wrong that stealthy ≠ invisible, a proper mission design will render the aircraft effectively invisible to air defenses. If you've got an active radar system you'll bounce signals off anything in the sky. Your ability to actually detect those things is based on the strength of the return and sensitivity/signal processing of the system. Big things can be detected hundreds of miles away, small things only tens of miles away. To protect some high value target you string together multiple radar systems to provide overlapping coverage. With enough systems you can have an unbroken wall of radar directing defending aircraft and SAMs. Stealth lets a big thing (a jet) pretend to be a small thing in the view of an air defense system, essentially cutting the detection range of radar. This means your unbroken radar coverage that would work for an F-15 now has a bunch of holes because each radar can only detect an F-22 twenty miles out instead of two hundred. Your radar is also further compromised because the stand-off range of anti-radiation missiles is outside the range you can detect and intercept the jets carrying them. Being able to see a stealth aircraft after it's fired a weapon to kill you isn't super helpful. A stealth aircraft can also fly through the artificial holes it made in your radar coverage and blow up the thing you're protecting and you only find out about it after the fact.
- GalenErso 4y ago
  The F-35 has been proven in simulations with aggressor squadrons. The Air Force does that all the time: real aircraft in the air, real pilots, real weapons, they just don't actually shoot them for obvious reasons. But they have other ways of simulating kills. https://www.businessinsider.com/f-22-pilot-describes-going-up-against-f-35-aggressors-2021-8?amp https://www.businessinsider.com/f-22-pilot-describes-going-u... Here's what a F-22 pilot (!) had to say about the F-35. "It is challenging, even flying the Raptor, to have good [situational awareness] on where the F-35s are," he said. Bowlds said that inserting F-35 aggressors into Red Flag made things "more challenging because there is a little bit of an unknown in terms of what they are going to be able to do." Additionally, "red air detects are happening at further ranges," Bowlds explained. "It inherently poses more of a threat to allied blue-air forces than older aggressors," such as the fourth-generation F-16s. The F-35s "have better detection capabilities kind of against everybody just because of their new radar and the avionics they have," he said. "It definitely adds a level of complexity."
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
    I think this combined with the carrier capability is the scariest for the enemy. You'll never be sure there aren't F-35s around.
  - belter 4y ago
    Proven in simulations is an oxymoron...
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- bee_rider 4y ago
  “Proven in combat” seems like a tricky concept. I mean the F-15 has that incredible 104:0 record, but that is because 1) it was ahead of the rest of the world when it came out 2) it spent a lot of time fighting older MIGs Which is to say, the circumstances requires to get a real peer fight for a US plane are quite rare. Thankfully!
  - greedo 4y ago
    3) Flown by some of the best combat pilots in the world (at the time).
tomohawk 4y ago
It's more like the F35 over promises and under delivers compared to what it is expected to replace. The F15 comes with a 20,000 hour airframe, while the F35 comes with a 8000 hour airframe. The F15 can get to target much faster, much farther, and still have fuel to do something when it gets there. The F15 can carry 12 AIM-120s (or 24 depending), while the F35 can carry 4. The F15's a great interceptor. The F35 is a great aircraft, but too expensive and limited to operate in that role. The following article analyzes the F15EX buy that is being debated as compared to the F35. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/buying-just-80-f-15exs-makes-no-sense https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/buying-just-80-f-15exs...
- avereveard 4y ago
  The f15 is going to be shoot down 60km from target by s400s, the f35 can get close enough to drop an harm on them at a speed they cannot intercept, so there's that. Also the f15 has speed or range, and if you need one it reduces the other.
- jghn 4y ago
  Isn’t the F22 the successor to the F15, being air superiority fighters?
  - sandworm101 4y ago
    It was, but since 22 production has stopped and there are plenty of 15s around, the 35 is often paird up with the 15 for wargaming. Doctrine and training is always dictated by practicalities like which aircraft you have to play with.
  - yetanotherloss 4y ago
    It was but production was scaled back so much, and the peer enemy aircraft it was needed to defeat still largely don't exist yet. As a result the production lines were shut down and equipment moved to permanent storage and other multirole fighters that are usually less expensive end up doing the F22's job. In the horrifying event of a US-China war or similar they'd be front line units along with F-35s and other modern fighters, but as is they'll probably end up on service life extension and retired without ever being used much in combat. The F-15 was sold to other nations and IIRC the majority of its air superiority engagements were with the Israeli air force.

"F-35 is bad" is just an internet meme with little to support it.

by u320 4y ago

"F-35 is bad" is just an internet meme with little to support it.

belter 4y ago

We can revisit it after it is proven in combat, something that still has to happen.

enkid 4y ago
What does proven in combat even mean? Win a war against China?
- melling 4y ago
  [flagged]
jmvoodoo 4y ago
F-35s have flown over 1,000 combat sorties. When would you consider it "proven"?
- belter 4y ago
  Bombing ISIS does not count. Here is an example of something that could really hurt. "...The F-35 can only tolerate supersonic speeds at high altitudes for short bursts before it sustains lasting structural damage and the loss of stealth capabilities..." - https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/five-problems-with-americas-f-35s-now-that-canada-is-buying-its-own-f-35s#:~:text=The%20F%2D35%20can%20only,plans%20to%20correct%20the%20problem https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/five-problems-with-amer....
chiph 4y ago
The Israelis have released footage of shooting down two drones, so they have the first kills with the F-35. Obviously this was not against a maneuvering human pilot, but still important. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdSFEpqwA6Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdSFEpqwA6Q
- FridayoLeary 4y ago
  They also have multiple (unproven but everyone knows who did it) strikes against iranian positions in syria and even in iran itself, it is rumoured. The ability to be invisible to radar is an absolute gamechanger.
  - belter 4y ago
    That just make it difficult to lock on with weapons. They are not invisible and any radar operator would tell you that if they would be allowed... "...Stealth designs minimize an aircraft's radar signature, delaying and sometimes even preventing detection, but because of the physical requirements for tactical jets, stealth fighters can be easily spotted by certain low-frequency radar bands. In fact, it's not even uncommon for air traffic control radar to be able to spot stealth fighters on their scopes. And we're not just talking about when these aircraft are carrying external munitions or fuel tanks, rather, even in full-on "stealth mode," F-22s and F-35s aren't as sneaky as you might think." - https://www.businessinsider.com/radars-can-see-best-stealth-jets-but-cant-stop-them-2022-7?international=true&r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/radars-can-see-best-stealth-...
    - giantrobot 4y ago
      While you're not wrong that stealthy ≠ invisible, a proper mission design will render the aircraft effectively invisible to air defenses. If you've got an active radar system you'll bounce signals off anything in the sky. Your ability to actually detect those things is based on the strength of the return and sensitivity/signal processing of the system. Big things can be detected hundreds of miles away, small things only tens of miles away. To protect some high value target you string together multiple radar systems to provide overlapping coverage. With enough systems you can have an unbroken wall of radar directing defending aircraft and SAMs. Stealth lets a big thing (a jet) pretend to be a small thing in the view of an air defense system, essentially cutting the detection range of radar. This means your unbroken radar coverage that would work for an F-15 now has a bunch of holes because each radar can only detect an F-22 twenty miles out instead of two hundred. Your radar is also further compromised because the stand-off range of anti-radiation missiles is outside the range you can detect and intercept the jets carrying them. Being able to see a stealth aircraft after it's fired a weapon to kill you isn't super helpful. A stealth aircraft can also fly through the artificial holes it made in your radar coverage and blow up the thing you're protecting and you only find out about it after the fact.
GalenErso 4y ago
The F-35 has been proven in simulations with aggressor squadrons. The Air Force does that all the time: real aircraft in the air, real pilots, real weapons, they just don't actually shoot them for obvious reasons. But they have other ways of simulating kills. https://www.businessinsider.com/f-22-pilot-describes-going-up-against-f-35-aggressors-2021-8?amp https://www.businessinsider.com/f-22-pilot-describes-going-u... Here's what a F-22 pilot (!) had to say about the F-35. "It is challenging, even flying the Raptor, to have good [situational awareness] on where the F-35s are," he said. Bowlds said that inserting F-35 aggressors into Red Flag made things "more challenging because there is a little bit of an unknown in terms of what they are going to be able to do." Additionally, "red air detects are happening at further ranges," Bowlds explained. "It inherently poses more of a threat to allied blue-air forces than older aggressors," such as the fourth-generation F-16s. The F-35s "have better detection capabilities kind of against everybody just because of their new radar and the avionics they have," he said. "It definitely adds a level of complexity."
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
  I think this combined with the carrier capability is the scariest for the enemy. You'll never be sure there aren't F-35s around.
- belter 4y ago
  Proven in simulations is an oxymoron...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
bee_rider 4y ago
“Proven in combat” seems like a tricky concept. I mean the F-15 has that incredible 104:0 record, but that is because 1) it was ahead of the rest of the world when it came out 2) it spent a lot of time fighting older MIGs Which is to say, the circumstances requires to get a real peer fight for a US plane are quite rare. Thankfully!
- greedo 4y ago
  3) Flown by some of the best combat pilots in the world (at the time).

tomohawk 4y ago

It's more like the F35 over promises and under delivers compared to what it is expected to replace. The F15 comes with a 20,000 hour airframe, while the F35 comes with a 8000 hour airframe. The F15 can get to target much faster, much farther, and still have fuel to do something when it gets there. The F15 can carry 12 AIM-120s (or 24 depending), while the F35 can carry 4. The F15's a great interceptor. The F35 is a great aircraft, but too expensive and limited to operate in that role. The following article analyzes the F15EX buy that is being debated as compared to the F35. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/buying-just-80-f-15exs-makes-no-sense https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/buying-just-80-f-15exs...

avereveard 4y ago
The f15 is going to be shoot down 60km from target by s400s, the f35 can get close enough to drop an harm on them at a speed they cannot intercept, so there's that. Also the f15 has speed or range, and if you need one it reduces the other.
jghn 4y ago
Isn’t the F22 the successor to the F15, being air superiority fighters?
- sandworm101 4y ago
  It was, but since 22 production has stopped and there are plenty of 15s around, the 35 is often paird up with the 15 for wargaming. Doctrine and training is always dictated by practicalities like which aircraft you have to play with.
- yetanotherloss 4y ago
  It was but production was scaled back so much, and the peer enemy aircraft it was needed to defeat still largely don't exist yet. As a result the production lines were shut down and equipment moved to permanent storage and other multirole fighters that are usually less expensive end up doing the F22's job. In the horrifying event of a US-China war or similar they'd be front line units along with F-35s and other modern fighters, but as is they'll probably end up on service life extension and retired without ever being used much in combat. The F-15 was sold to other nations and IIRC the majority of its air superiority engagements were with the Israeli air force.