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> A doctor has zero ability to order tests without patient consent (or consent of a guardian) in the US. Huh? So if they pickup my comatose body in an alley, t

> A doctor has zero ability to order tests without patient consent (or consent of a guardian) in the US. Huh? So if they pickup my comatose body in an alley, the doctor (or medic!) can’t take test my blood sugar?

dghlsakjg 4y ago
That falls under implied consent. In the case where youre unable to give consent, medical providers are given license to provide care that would be considered reasonable and necessary given your condition. Once you are conscious you can withdraw consent for treatment at any time. A secret drug test on a conscious person who is not showing symptoms of intoxication is pretty far outside of the limits of implied consent.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  People can be dependent on all kinds of drugs without symptoms of intoxication. Irrelevant to know for say, a job (if you can do the work; who cares?) but could be quite relevant if you’re hospitalized, or your new child needs to be treated for withdrawal from it.
  - deberon 4y ago
    What’s the withdrawal like coming off lemon poppy seed muffins? Poor kids.
    - Scoundreller 4y ago
      Probably nothing with the cutoffs they're using here, but neonatal opioid abstinence syndrome is absolutely a thing. And not all necessarily by "drug addict" mothers, but lots of legitimate long-term opiate use. But one would hope they would be up-front about the latter at least.
  - dghlsakjg 4y ago
    That’s irrelevant to legality, which is what I was talking about. Medical consent is more complicated than just this, and what you’re talking about crosses into doctor patient confidentiality as well. Suffice it to say that testing patients without informed consent and sharing that data with law enforcement is not something that most ethical review boards would condone. From a practical and moral point of view this kind of incident is what keeps people from telling their doctor all of the relevant information for best care. If you have a drug problem and think a medical provider will work to have your child taken away if you are honest about it, will you ever seek treatment or be honest? If you don’t have a drug problem, but still think that what you say to your doctor or kids doctor will get used against you, will you hesitate to get care in the future? Do you think these mothers will ever interact with another pediatrician with full trust again?
    - Scoundreller 4y ago
      > but still think that what you say to your doctor or kids doctor will get used against you, will you hesitate to get care in the future? > Do you think these mothers will ever interact with another pediatrician with full trust again? These are already issues. Only what you share with your lawyer is truly privileged. Everything else might get fanned out in a court. Indeed, if you talk about your seizure with your doctor, your driver's license might get suspended. If you share that your medical condition isn't stable anymore, you may lose your travel health insurance (or pay for it but still get rejected when you make a claim).
indymike 4y ago
In this case the guardian is either the person who brought you in or the hospital itself.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  No, some rando that comes across your comatose body in an alley isn’t your guardian.

dghlsakjg 4y ago

That falls under implied consent. In the case where youre unable to give consent, medical providers are given license to provide care that would be considered reasonable and necessary given your condition. Once you are conscious you can withdraw consent for treatment at any time. A secret drug test on a conscious person who is not showing symptoms of intoxication is pretty far outside of the limits of implied consent.

Scoundreller 4y ago
People can be dependent on all kinds of drugs without symptoms of intoxication. Irrelevant to know for say, a job (if you can do the work; who cares?) but could be quite relevant if you’re hospitalized, or your new child needs to be treated for withdrawal from it.
- deberon 4y ago
  What’s the withdrawal like coming off lemon poppy seed muffins? Poor kids.
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    Probably nothing with the cutoffs they're using here, but neonatal opioid abstinence syndrome is absolutely a thing. And not all necessarily by "drug addict" mothers, but lots of legitimate long-term opiate use. But one would hope they would be up-front about the latter at least.
- dghlsakjg 4y ago
  That’s irrelevant to legality, which is what I was talking about. Medical consent is more complicated than just this, and what you’re talking about crosses into doctor patient confidentiality as well. Suffice it to say that testing patients without informed consent and sharing that data with law enforcement is not something that most ethical review boards would condone. From a practical and moral point of view this kind of incident is what keeps people from telling their doctor all of the relevant information for best care. If you have a drug problem and think a medical provider will work to have your child taken away if you are honest about it, will you ever seek treatment or be honest? If you don’t have a drug problem, but still think that what you say to your doctor or kids doctor will get used against you, will you hesitate to get care in the future? Do you think these mothers will ever interact with another pediatrician with full trust again?
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    > but still think that what you say to your doctor or kids doctor will get used against you, will you hesitate to get care in the future? > Do you think these mothers will ever interact with another pediatrician with full trust again? These are already issues. Only what you share with your lawyer is truly privileged. Everything else might get fanned out in a court. Indeed, if you talk about your seizure with your doctor, your driver's license might get suspended. If you share that your medical condition isn't stable anymore, you may lose your travel health insurance (or pay for it but still get rejected when you make a claim).

indymike 4y ago

In this case the guardian is either the person who brought you in or the hospital itself.

Scoundreller 4y ago
No, some rando that comes across your comatose body in an alley isn’t your guardian.