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This is such a farce of an article. "Coinbase has taken an increasingly defiant stance, publicly criticizing the SEC and urging regulators to write new rules f

This is such a farce of an article. "Coinbase has taken an increasingly defiant stance, publicly criticizing the SEC and urging regulators to write new rules for crypto rather than enforce existing ones." No, they're asking the SEC to provide evidence and the SEC has been ignoring them and trying to have everything be a security. "The firm has accused the SEC of stifling innovation and has spent millions of dollars lobbying Congress in hopes of bypassing regulators through new legislation." Again no, they're not trying to bypass regulators whatsoever. Coinbase has posted again and again and again that they want to be properly regulated including by the SEC, but the SEC refuses to work with them. It's extremely frustrating because people who know what's actually been going on can clearly see the bs, but most people who read this article (including a ton of the anti crypto crowd on HN) will just latch onto this as if it is truth.

pavlov 4y ago
The SEC doesn’t have to help a company which is actively skirting the law to craft its legal strategy. They do have to provide evidence to a court when they file an enforcement action. That’s how laws work.
- ESTheComposer 4y ago
  The SEC can't declare everything a security, then enforce it without providing evidence or guidance to companies trying to be regulated, and then further make videos on twitter declaring that it's as easy as signing a form to be regulated (lying). I've seen you before in threads and I know you have a giant anti crypto slant, but try to use some logic and not just cower when you see government acronyms without questioning them
  - ESTheComposer 4y ago
    Also news flash to folks in these threads, the rest of the world is pretty much on board with crypto and making pretty big advancements. Whether people like it or not, this is here and it's staying (by definition you can't shut down things like Bitcoin). We either catch up as a country and allow innovation or we lost a pretty big future position.
    - pavlov 4y ago
      LOL. It’s totally fine to miss out on the latest wave in Ponzi innovation. The “rest of the world” is certainly not on board with crypto. China and India are blocking large parts of it. EU has new legislation in the pipeline. Even the Bahamas don’t seem quite as excited about crypto as they used to be…
      - ESTheComposer 4y ago
        Yeah yeah, I've heard this before (internet anyone?). EU does have new legislation which is great, it's something the US should have. China has been some activities but promoted others, and India has a corrupt banking system where you have to bribe officials to even get a license for anything, so not sure why you think that's a good example. There are also many other European, Middle Eastern, African, and South American countries embracing and promoting crypto as a new payment system for various reasons. The fact that you think it's just a ponzi shows how close minded you are and tbh not worth "debating" with.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - ESTheComposer 4y ago
        Also the irony here I think for you specifically is Finland is one of the most crypto friendly countries in the EU lmao
        pavlov 4y ago
        I don’t see anyone in Finland paying for coffee with crypto. Or paying their employees. Or paying their mortgage. Or raising money for their company. You know, any of the many things that happen every day in the actual financial system; the things that make an actual economy work and produce wealth and wellbeing. So what does crypto actually do, if it’s not used for anything productive even in the most crypto-friendly countries? The best that its proponents can offer seems to be “one day it could do X” and variations on “it will work when everybody does it right”, a position oddly similar to true believers in Communism. Many years ago I used to be quite positive about crypto. Smart contracts sounded clever and useful. The more I looked at the technology and the people involved, the more obvious it became that it’s fundamentally deficient and controlled by scammers. Crypto has had many, many chances to prove itself, and as far as I’m concerned, it failed at everything and doesn’t deserve yet another chance.
  - gulbanana 4y ago
    Can’t they? It seems to be within their legal powers, and the elected officials directing them clearly approve.
    - ESTheComposer 4y ago
      No they can't, which is why they've been taken to court in the past and will in the future again. Also to your elected officials point, no not all of them are happy and have spoken out on both sides of the aisle, and even other agencies like the CFTC have come out against the SEC in the last year for trying to enforce by action instead of regulation
  - makeitrain 4y ago
    Why should crypto currencies not be considered a security asset?
    - toomim 4y ago
      Because they don't satisfy the Howey Test, which legally defines a security. https://kurtalaw.medium.com/the-howey-test-the-supreme-court-ruling-that-defined-investments-cdb0b29b8160 https://kurtalaw.medium.com/the-howey-test-the-supreme-court...
      - illiarian 4y ago
        The way the absolute vast majority of this cesspool is used satisfies all the criteria.
      - ericd 4y ago
        I thought the status was that BTC was considered a commodity, and basically all the rest were considered securities?
        michaelsbradley 4y ago
        The chairman of the Commodities and Futures Trading Commission, Rostin Behnam, told the Senate Agriculture Committee on 09 March 2023 that Ethereum, the second-largest cryptocurrency next to Bitcoin, is a commodity. "We would not have allowed the Ether futures product to be listed on a CFTC exchange if we did not feel strongly that it was a commodity asset," he elaborated, stating that his agency has "serious legal defences" to support their case. https://decrypt.co/123032/cftc-chair-says-ethereum-is-a-commodity-despite-genslers-bitcoin-only-position https://decrypt.co/123032/cftc-chair-says-ethereum-is-a-comm...
        ericd 4y ago
        Ah, good to know, thanks!
        4y ago
- miracle2k 4y ago
  > That’s how laws work. Not really. It's entirely reasonable to expect regulatory agencies to lay out in painstaking detail and with perfect clarity the necessary criteria for anyone to know what is or isn't within bounds, and not take 10y of mixed messages to do it.
  - ESTheComposer 4y ago
    Unfortunately for many people on HN, you should never start a business in a legally muddy sector and ask for clarification, because you should've known all along what the SEC was thinking or would've thought of! To many people here whenever a crypto post is posted, it's unreasonable to ask for clarification from the officials who make and enforce the law.
- rumdonut 4y ago
  Yeah this is bizarre. Imagine if a cop came up to you and told you to stop committing a crime. Being difficult and dismissing the assertion is going to land you in court. It’s your responsibility to know the law, and it’s certainly not the cop’s responsibility to spell out the public law for you before they can do their job. I don’t know what coinbase expected - actually I think they knew they had no case and are just delaying and trying to take the SEC down with them, given the attacks.
  - ESTheComposer 4y ago
    Your scenario is slightly off. It would be more like the cop stopping you and saying "you're breaking the law" and you asking "which law", and them saying "the law", and you asking "can you be more specific? Which law", and them saying "I'm taking you to court for breaking the law", and you're still asking "WHICH LAW?!?!?" The SEC is saying "you might have securities, and your various businesses might violate our laws", and Coinbase asking "which ones and how?", and SEC basically twiddling their thumbs and saying, "fuck it, you're breaking the law", and Coinbase still asking "BUT WHICH ONES?!?!?"
    - iudqnolq 4y ago
      Fun fact: If the cop told you "don't worry, you're not breaking the law, let me help you" it still wouldn't be entrapment or unusual if they subsequently went after you.
WinstonSmith84 4y ago
just here to wish you good luck arguing with HN people on crypto. I've given up, there are a lot of interesting people writing on various topics but when it comes to Crypto, it's like coming into a MAGA group on Facebook and suggesting there is a better alternative to Trump. This doesn't end well lmao
- ESTheComposer 4y ago
  Yeah not sure why I try, you get some really heated people who live in a bubble and think crypto has never done anything whatsoever, or others who expect it to have replaced global finance in the mere 10 years it's been alive lol. The MAGA comparison is very apt
- jmeister 4y ago
  +1
- illiarian 4y ago
  > there are a lot of interesting people writing on various topics but when it comes to Crypto, But when it comes to Crypto there's almost literally nothing interesting to come out of it except: - scams - ponzi schemes - other get rich quick schemes - schemes that ignore any and all reality - schemes that are better done using almost literally any other technology (including Brainfuck and MS Access) - Vitalik's long-winded essays that are either superficial takes on some distant future or technical reports on fixing something in ethereum And yet for over 10 years now we've been hearing that "there are good and interesting things happening in crypto". Edit: oh, there's some usefulness there as well: circumventing government rigulations to pay for something illegal, or to be an unregulated uninsured "at your own risk" alternative to Western Union or Moneygram
seanhunter 4y ago
This is the US regulatory playbook unfortunately. Unlike in Europe and elsewhere, where regulators really try to be clear about what is and isn't ok, in the US the regulators seem to try to be as vague as possible and then just take action occasionally. As such in new areas it does act to stifle innovation because people who are risk averse have to wait until someone else does something, the regulator enforces, it goes to court and the court decides. When I worked at a fintech I actually was in a meeting with the OCC[1] and a prospective bank client we talked them through our plans and they said "when you get big enough you'll need to register with us and we'll have some requirements for you". We said we wanted to start that process right away and so asked for the requirements so we could start baking them into our software and they literally said "We'll call you when we think you're big enough. Until then we'll call you if we think you're in violation". They wouldn't tell us what the regulations were or how to proactively avoid breach. This is entirely unlike other jurisdictions where you can generally find all the regulations on the regulator's website and in some cases (eg Singapore) the regulator will actively work with you on developing new regulation if they think what you're doing is innovative and valuable. For example, here is the German crypto asset regulation. It's incredibly straightforward and easy to find. There is no grey area about what the regulator does and does not consider a security, what you can and cannot do and what existing national and EU regulation they consider to be included. [2] [1] I should say this was not crypto related but this is a playbook that US financial regulators seem to adopt broadly [2] https://www.dechert.com/content/dam/dechert%20files/knowledge/publication/2022/5/Germany-Crypto-Guide.pdf https://www.dechert.com/content/dam/dechert%20files/knowledg... or https://www.nortonrosefulbright.com/en/knowledge/publications/5ee1e37e/new-regulatory-regime-for-crypto-assets-in-germany https://www.nortonrosefulbright.com/en/knowledge/publication...
DANmode 4y ago
This seems to come down to whether you hold, or are willing to be convinced to agree with, the opinion that unelected politicians should have arbitrary decision-making power that pass/fail corporations.
burnte 4y ago
Yeah, CoinBase just sent out a big email a few days ago on all this, too. This article is a hit piece, and I don't even LIKE crypto.

pavlov 4y ago

The SEC doesn’t have to help a company which is actively skirting the law to craft its legal strategy. They do have to provide evidence to a court when they file an enforcement action. That’s how laws work.

ESTheComposer 4y ago
The SEC can't declare everything a security, then enforce it without providing evidence or guidance to companies trying to be regulated, and then further make videos on twitter declaring that it's as easy as signing a form to be regulated (lying). I've seen you before in threads and I know you have a giant anti crypto slant, but try to use some logic and not just cower when you see government acronyms without questioning them
- ESTheComposer 4y ago
  Also news flash to folks in these threads, the rest of the world is pretty much on board with crypto and making pretty big advancements. Whether people like it or not, this is here and it's staying (by definition you can't shut down things like Bitcoin). We either catch up as a country and allow innovation or we lost a pretty big future position.
  - pavlov 4y ago
    LOL. It’s totally fine to miss out on the latest wave in Ponzi innovation. The “rest of the world” is certainly not on board with crypto. China and India are blocking large parts of it. EU has new legislation in the pipeline. Even the Bahamas don’t seem quite as excited about crypto as they used to be…
    - ESTheComposer 4y ago
      Yeah yeah, I've heard this before (internet anyone?). EU does have new legislation which is great, it's something the US should have. China has been some activities but promoted others, and India has a corrupt banking system where you have to bribe officials to even get a license for anything, so not sure why you think that's a good example. There are also many other European, Middle Eastern, African, and South American countries embracing and promoting crypto as a new payment system for various reasons. The fact that you think it's just a ponzi shows how close minded you are and tbh not worth "debating" with.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - ESTheComposer 4y ago
      Also the irony here I think for you specifically is Finland is one of the most crypto friendly countries in the EU lmao
      - pavlov 4y ago
        I don’t see anyone in Finland paying for coffee with crypto. Or paying their employees. Or paying their mortgage. Or raising money for their company. You know, any of the many things that happen every day in the actual financial system; the things that make an actual economy work and produce wealth and wellbeing. So what does crypto actually do, if it’s not used for anything productive even in the most crypto-friendly countries? The best that its proponents can offer seems to be “one day it could do X” and variations on “it will work when everybody does it right”, a position oddly similar to true believers in Communism. Many years ago I used to be quite positive about crypto. Smart contracts sounded clever and useful. The more I looked at the technology and the people involved, the more obvious it became that it’s fundamentally deficient and controlled by scammers. Crypto has had many, many chances to prove itself, and as far as I’m concerned, it failed at everything and doesn’t deserve yet another chance.
- gulbanana 4y ago
  Can’t they? It seems to be within their legal powers, and the elected officials directing them clearly approve.
  - ESTheComposer 4y ago
    No they can't, which is why they've been taken to court in the past and will in the future again. Also to your elected officials point, no not all of them are happy and have spoken out on both sides of the aisle, and even other agencies like the CFTC have come out against the SEC in the last year for trying to enforce by action instead of regulation
- makeitrain 4y ago
  Why should crypto currencies not be considered a security asset?
  - toomim 4y ago
    Because they don't satisfy the Howey Test, which legally defines a security. https://kurtalaw.medium.com/the-howey-test-the-supreme-court-ruling-that-defined-investments-cdb0b29b8160 https://kurtalaw.medium.com/the-howey-test-the-supreme-court...
    - illiarian 4y ago
      The way the absolute vast majority of this cesspool is used satisfies all the criteria.
    - ericd 4y ago
      I thought the status was that BTC was considered a commodity, and basically all the rest were considered securities?
      - michaelsbradley 4y ago
        The chairman of the Commodities and Futures Trading Commission, Rostin Behnam, told the Senate Agriculture Committee on 09 March 2023 that Ethereum, the second-largest cryptocurrency next to Bitcoin, is a commodity. "We would not have allowed the Ether futures product to be listed on a CFTC exchange if we did not feel strongly that it was a commodity asset," he elaborated, stating that his agency has "serious legal defences" to support their case. https://decrypt.co/123032/cftc-chair-says-ethereum-is-a-commodity-despite-genslers-bitcoin-only-position https://decrypt.co/123032/cftc-chair-says-ethereum-is-a-comm...
        ericd 4y ago
        Ah, good to know, thanks!
        4y ago
miracle2k 4y ago
> That’s how laws work. Not really. It's entirely reasonable to expect regulatory agencies to lay out in painstaking detail and with perfect clarity the necessary criteria for anyone to know what is or isn't within bounds, and not take 10y of mixed messages to do it.
- ESTheComposer 4y ago
  Unfortunately for many people on HN, you should never start a business in a legally muddy sector and ask for clarification, because you should've known all along what the SEC was thinking or would've thought of! To many people here whenever a crypto post is posted, it's unreasonable to ask for clarification from the officials who make and enforce the law.
rumdonut 4y ago
Yeah this is bizarre. Imagine if a cop came up to you and told you to stop committing a crime. Being difficult and dismissing the assertion is going to land you in court. It’s your responsibility to know the law, and it’s certainly not the cop’s responsibility to spell out the public law for you before they can do their job. I don’t know what coinbase expected - actually I think they knew they had no case and are just delaying and trying to take the SEC down with them, given the attacks.
- ESTheComposer 4y ago
  Your scenario is slightly off. It would be more like the cop stopping you and saying "you're breaking the law" and you asking "which law", and them saying "the law", and you asking "can you be more specific? Which law", and them saying "I'm taking you to court for breaking the law", and you're still asking "WHICH LAW?!?!?" The SEC is saying "you might have securities, and your various businesses might violate our laws", and Coinbase asking "which ones and how?", and SEC basically twiddling their thumbs and saying, "fuck it, you're breaking the law", and Coinbase still asking "BUT WHICH ONES?!?!?"
  - iudqnolq 4y ago
    Fun fact: If the cop told you "don't worry, you're not breaking the law, let me help you" it still wouldn't be entrapment or unusual if they subsequently went after you.

WinstonSmith84 4y ago

just here to wish you good luck arguing with HN people on crypto. I've given up, there are a lot of interesting people writing on various topics but when it comes to Crypto, it's like coming into a MAGA group on Facebook and suggesting there is a better alternative to Trump. This doesn't end well lmao

ESTheComposer 4y ago
Yeah not sure why I try, you get some really heated people who live in a bubble and think crypto has never done anything whatsoever, or others who expect it to have replaced global finance in the mere 10 years it's been alive lol. The MAGA comparison is very apt
jmeister 4y ago
+1
illiarian 4y ago
> there are a lot of interesting people writing on various topics but when it comes to Crypto, But when it comes to Crypto there's almost literally nothing interesting to come out of it except: - scams - ponzi schemes - other get rich quick schemes - schemes that ignore any and all reality - schemes that are better done using almost literally any other technology (including Brainfuck and MS Access) - Vitalik's long-winded essays that are either superficial takes on some distant future or technical reports on fixing something in ethereum And yet for over 10 years now we've been hearing that "there are good and interesting things happening in crypto". Edit: oh, there's some usefulness there as well: circumventing government rigulations to pay for something illegal, or to be an unregulated uninsured "at your own risk" alternative to Western Union or Moneygram

seanhunter 4y ago

This is the US regulatory playbook unfortunately. Unlike in Europe and elsewhere, where regulators really try to be clear about what is and isn't ok, in the US the regulators seem to try to be as vague as possible and then just take action occasionally. As such in new areas it does act to stifle innovation because people who are risk averse have to wait until someone else does something, the regulator enforces, it goes to court and the court decides. When I worked at a fintech I actually was in a meeting with the OCC[1] and a prospective bank client we talked them through our plans and they said "when you get big enough you'll need to register with us and we'll have some requirements for you". We said we wanted to start that process right away and so asked for the requirements so we could start baking them into our software and they literally said "We'll call you when we think you're big enough. Until then we'll call you if we think you're in violation". They wouldn't tell us what the regulations were or how to proactively avoid breach. This is entirely unlike other jurisdictions where you can generally find all the regulations on the regulator's website and in some cases (eg Singapore) the regulator will actively work with you on developing new regulation if they think what you're doing is innovative and valuable. For example, here is the German crypto asset regulation. It's incredibly straightforward and easy to find. There is no grey area about what the regulator does and does not consider a security, what you can and cannot do and what existing national and EU regulation they consider to be included. [2] [1] I should say this was not crypto related but this is a playbook that US financial regulators seem to adopt broadly [2] https://www.dechert.com/content/dam/dechert%20files/knowledge/publication/2022/5/Germany-Crypto-Guide.pdf https://www.dechert.com/content/dam/dechert%20files/knowledg... or https://www.nortonrosefulbright.com/en/knowledge/publications/5ee1e37e/new-regulatory-regime-for-crypto-assets-in-germany https://www.nortonrosefulbright.com/en/knowledge/publication...

DANmode 4y ago

This seems to come down to whether you hold, or are willing to be convinced to agree with, the opinion that unelected politicians should have arbitrary decision-making power that pass/fail corporations.

burnte 4y ago

Yeah, CoinBase just sent out a big email a few days ago on all this, too. This article is a hit piece, and I don't even LIKE crypto.