4 ms·

Los Angeles?! He clarifies that it's probably due to a low sample size. But still... LA? It seems like the "surprising" success of the US might be due to skys

by scythe 4y ago

Los Angeles?! He clarifies that it's probably due to a low sample size. But still... LA? It seems like the "surprising" success of the US might be due to skyscrapers being largely built by the private sector, which is pretty good in the US, while American public sector construction is, unfortunately, something of a running joke. Good on him for recognizing the mistake (autocorrelation) in a previous article.

milleramp 4y ago
I guessed that Los Angeles would be high on the list, not necessarily first, the amount of construction in downtown has been crazy the last decades. The skyline is so different compared to the 90's.
xxpor 4y ago
I can't think of a large scale public construction project recently, in any domain. Everything's contracted out. In Seattle for example you see the exact same contractors building stuff for Google and Sound Transit.
- paramount 4y ago
  Speaking of Seattle, the 99 tunnel was pretty large in scope with the world's largest tunnel boring machine. Construction started in 2013 and opened to traffic in 2019. "Boring of the tunnel with the 57.5-foot (17.5 m) diameter "Bertha," at the time the world's largest-diameter tunnel-boring machine, began on July 30, 2013,[69][70] and at the time was expected to be completed in 14 months" [1] We also have the lightrail projects with total funding of over $54 billion. Pretty large in scope with variability in success and budget[2] [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Route_99_tunnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Route_99_tunnel [2]https://www.constructiondive.com/news/seattle-area-light-rail-transportation-plan-busting-54b-budget/549892/ https://www.constructiondive.com/news/seattle-area-light-rai...
  - com2kid 4y ago
    > Pretty large in scope with variability in success and budget[2] Sound Transit would have better luck if they weren't forced to work under so many constraints. Because money trickles in slowly, and because funding has to come from different cities in a predetermined way, they are stuck with speculators buying up property before Sound Transit is allowed to, and then selling it to ST for inflated prices. Cities that need mass transit right now are not allowed to pay for transit to be built faster in their area. And of course everyone loves to sue them, costing even more $. I still have not figured out why the holy hell there isn't commercial real estate built along with all sound transit stations. We have these large expensive stations that are devoid of any commercial activity, meanwhile Japan sticks Michelin Star restaurants in their transit stations. The Roosevelt station is a notable example of this, huge station, takes up lots of the block, and it is tall, why aren't there at least 2 or even 3 levels of retail space in it?
    - scythe 4y ago
      >I still have not figured out why the holy hell there isn't commercial real estate built along with all sound transit stations. We have these large expensive stations that are devoid of any commercial activity, meanwhile Japan sticks Michelin Star restaurants in their transit stations. In general, the opposite complaint has been raised: US station platforms are too large! I don't know how they do it in Japan, but the train station in Rome has all of the services above ground in a normal building, away from the tracks, while when I've seen coffeeshops and the like at subways in the US, they're often on the platform or at least underground. DC has some truly cavernous stations full of a lot of signs and stale air (and not much else). So it seems like part of the problem is that the subway authority is confined to an unreasonably tight definition of where they can operate, and then they try to cram a camel through the eye of the needle.
- scythe 4y ago
  Contractors are probably part of the problem: https://slate.com/business/2023/02/subway-costs-us-europe-public-transit-funds.html https://slate.com/business/2023/02/subway-costs-us-europe-pu... Public agencies don't have enough in-house expertise, so they spend more on contractors and consultants than in peer nations (particularly vs. non-Anglosphere). So I'm sorry if it was confusing when I said "public sector", because the problem occurs with public infrastructure projects directed by the government, and the privatization downstream has minimal effect.
jmclnx 4y ago
Yes, I agree with this, if a public building probably takes 10x 20x slower. My city was rather fast too, but we still have one bridge Under Construction since 1986 :) They just said it will be replaced any day now
RC_ITR 4y ago
My guess is also that it has a lot to do with infrastructure. This is probably why US tall buildings are slower than the rest of world. When a new tower requires metro station access, complex/new electrical work, etc. the US lags because those things take a lot of civic interaction. Meanwhile, LA's midrise towers have almost no new infrastructure requirements and can just start rising.
- scythe 4y ago
  US tall buildings are not slower than the rest of the world. That's the biggest surprise in the data, and it persists under different analytical methodologies.
  - RC_ITR 4y ago
    > If we look only at the very tallest buildings, China builds much faster than the US. ??
wolverine876 4y ago
Do you have data on the public vs private sector rates? Running jokes are not evidence (except of groupthink).
- scythe 4y ago
  It's very difficult to put a direct comparison, because the government usually does not build skyscrapers, and the private sector almost never builds public transit. But you see dramatic shortfalls in US cost and rate on the construction of major transit infrastructure compared to peer nations: https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/22534714/rail-roads-infrastructure-costs-america https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/22534714/rail-roads-infrast... As I detail in a cousin comment, privatizing the construction process itself does not help (and might make matters worse), but it surprised both the author (of TFA) and me to see that the US is competitive when the whole project is privatized — possibly implying that the government is making mistakes in administration particularly.
  - wolverine876 4y ago
    Maybe the government takes on tasks that private sector companies don't believe they can make work.
    - scythe 4y ago
      It's not impossible. But again, the contrast has four parts: - Eurasian private sector, works - Anglosphere private sector, works (except in Canada) - Eurasian public sector, works - Anglosphere public sector, confounded by cost overruns If it's a simple result of scope, it remains to be explained why similar projects are harder in the English-speaking world than in Italy, China, Japan or Mexico (yes, even Mexico has substantially lower costs!). My other comments in this thread offer more details.

by scythe 4y ago

milleramp 4y ago

I guessed that Los Angeles would be high on the list, not necessarily first, the amount of construction in downtown has been crazy the last decades. The skyline is so different compared to the 90's.

xxpor 4y ago

I can't think of a large scale public construction project recently, in any domain. Everything's contracted out. In Seattle for example you see the exact same contractors building stuff for Google and Sound Transit.

paramount 4y ago
Speaking of Seattle, the 99 tunnel was pretty large in scope with the world's largest tunnel boring machine. Construction started in 2013 and opened to traffic in 2019. "Boring of the tunnel with the 57.5-foot (17.5 m) diameter "Bertha," at the time the world's largest-diameter tunnel-boring machine, began on July 30, 2013,[69][70] and at the time was expected to be completed in 14 months" [1] We also have the lightrail projects with total funding of over $54 billion. Pretty large in scope with variability in success and budget[2] [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Route_99_tunnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Route_99_tunnel [2]https://www.constructiondive.com/news/seattle-area-light-rail-transportation-plan-busting-54b-budget/549892/ https://www.constructiondive.com/news/seattle-area-light-rai...
- com2kid 4y ago
  > Pretty large in scope with variability in success and budget[2] Sound Transit would have better luck if they weren't forced to work under so many constraints. Because money trickles in slowly, and because funding has to come from different cities in a predetermined way, they are stuck with speculators buying up property before Sound Transit is allowed to, and then selling it to ST for inflated prices. Cities that need mass transit right now are not allowed to pay for transit to be built faster in their area. And of course everyone loves to sue them, costing even more $. I still have not figured out why the holy hell there isn't commercial real estate built along with all sound transit stations. We have these large expensive stations that are devoid of any commercial activity, meanwhile Japan sticks Michelin Star restaurants in their transit stations. The Roosevelt station is a notable example of this, huge station, takes up lots of the block, and it is tall, why aren't there at least 2 or even 3 levels of retail space in it?
  - scythe 4y ago
    >I still have not figured out why the holy hell there isn't commercial real estate built along with all sound transit stations. We have these large expensive stations that are devoid of any commercial activity, meanwhile Japan sticks Michelin Star restaurants in their transit stations. In general, the opposite complaint has been raised: US station platforms are too large! I don't know how they do it in Japan, but the train station in Rome has all of the services above ground in a normal building, away from the tracks, while when I've seen coffeeshops and the like at subways in the US, they're often on the platform or at least underground. DC has some truly cavernous stations full of a lot of signs and stale air (and not much else). So it seems like part of the problem is that the subway authority is confined to an unreasonably tight definition of where they can operate, and then they try to cram a camel through the eye of the needle.
scythe 4y ago
Contractors are probably part of the problem: https://slate.com/business/2023/02/subway-costs-us-europe-public-transit-funds.html https://slate.com/business/2023/02/subway-costs-us-europe-pu... Public agencies don't have enough in-house expertise, so they spend more on contractors and consultants than in peer nations (particularly vs. non-Anglosphere). So I'm sorry if it was confusing when I said "public sector", because the problem occurs with public infrastructure projects directed by the government, and the privatization downstream has minimal effect.

jmclnx 4y ago

Yes, I agree with this, if a public building probably takes 10x 20x slower. My city was rather fast too, but we still have one bridge Under Construction since 1986 :) They just said it will be replaced any day now

RC_ITR 4y ago

My guess is also that it has a lot to do with infrastructure. This is probably why US tall buildings are slower than the rest of world. When a new tower requires metro station access, complex/new electrical work, etc. the US lags because those things take a lot of civic interaction. Meanwhile, LA's midrise towers have almost no new infrastructure requirements and can just start rising.

scythe 4y ago
US tall buildings are not slower than the rest of the world. That's the biggest surprise in the data, and it persists under different analytical methodologies.
- RC_ITR 4y ago
  > If we look only at the very tallest buildings, China builds much faster than the US. ??

wolverine876 4y ago

Do you have data on the public vs private sector rates? Running jokes are not evidence (except of groupthink).

scythe 4y ago
It's very difficult to put a direct comparison, because the government usually does not build skyscrapers, and the private sector almost never builds public transit. But you see dramatic shortfalls in US cost and rate on the construction of major transit infrastructure compared to peer nations: https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/22534714/rail-roads-infrastructure-costs-america https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/22534714/rail-roads-infrast... As I detail in a cousin comment, privatizing the construction process itself does not help (and might make matters worse), but it surprised both the author (of TFA) and me to see that the US is competitive when the whole project is privatized — possibly implying that the government is making mistakes in administration particularly.
- wolverine876 4y ago
  Maybe the government takes on tasks that private sector companies don't believe they can make work.
  - scythe 4y ago
    It's not impossible. But again, the contrast has four parts: - Eurasian private sector, works - Anglosphere private sector, works (except in Canada) - Eurasian public sector, works - Anglosphere public sector, confounded by cost overruns If it's a simple result of scope, it remains to be explained why similar projects are harder in the English-speaking world than in Italy, China, Japan or Mexico (yes, even Mexico has substantially lower costs!). My other comments in this thread offer more details.