5 ms·

It's not such a good idea to choose what you dream. I hold a bit of a niche view on the functionality of dreaming, although I believe eventual research will hol

It's not such a good idea to choose what you dream. I hold a bit of a niche view on the functionality of dreaming, although I believe eventual research will hold me in good stead. When one looks at the neurology of REM sleep, it is hard not to reach the conclusion that dreams are a form of "inverse anxious mind-wandering". As in the neurology of mind-wandering is activated, however the brain is (surprisingly) in an extremely relaxed state. Norepinephrine (the fight or flight neurotransmitter) levels are 80% below base waking levels (Norepinephrine spikes when you are in a stressful situation), and the amygdala (threat detection) is inactive. When we are awake and performing anxious mind-wandering (with Norepinephrine levels raised and our amygdala active), our mind-wandering has a focus/direction. It imagines the worst and this encourages us to take avoidant action; for example, you might wish to bring something difficult up with a friend, however you brain will imagine all the ways that it can go wrong so you avoid the potential confrontation. From a survival point of view, it is pretty useful for the brain to have a bias towards avoidance when awake. I posit that during dreaming, the brain creates situations in which it would be wise to be unavoidant. However, typically, despite the situation we imagine quite clearly calling for unavoidant behaviour, we take avoidant behaviour. This is because our emotional/episodic memory areas of the brain are activated during REM sleep, and we automatically take the anxious behaviour we have been "trained" to take (our neuroses). This, in my eyes, is the function of dreaming. To highlight our neuroses/unconscious redundant anxieties. For this reason, controlling the content of your dreams would remove their primary function. I wrote a paper on this topic which contains several examples of dreams that fit this structure. (I'm afraid I do not have the time to type an example out now.) It can be read here: https://psyarxiv.com/k6trz https://psyarxiv.com/k6trz It was previously discussed on HN here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19143590 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19143590

com2kid 4y ago
> This, in my eyes, is the function of dreaming. To highlight our neuroses/unconscious redundant anxieties. For this reason, controlling the content of your dreams would remove their primary function. A large percent of people are lucid dreamers up until their 20s, so there likely isn't any hugely detrimental impact over some level of control over one's dreams. > I posit that during dreaming, the brain creates situations in which it would be wise to be unavoidant. For the longest time, my dreams were on the exciting / dangerous side. Lots of getting shot at, lots of fighting, lots of fun, but high stress situations. I had one dream that always stood out where I was actively terraforming worlds over the course of thousands of years in an attempt to create sentient life that could fight off a slowly progressing alien wave that was sweeping through the galaxy. Lots of fun, at least for my definition of fun. Also had a dream that took place over hundreds+ of years where I was stuck on a spaceship that thanks to relativity, had long since outlived the rest of humanity. That was a rather lonely dream. I've also watched plenty of movies in my dreams, and listened to some amazing concerts. I always wished I knew enough about music so I could transcribe the songs after I wake up. :( One thing that I miss now that I'm older is some of the plot lines from my dreams that had been going on for decades. It sucks to lose contact with some of the characters and places I used to visit.
- jnsie 4y ago
  > I had one dream that always stood out where I was actively terraforming worlds over the course of thousands of years in an attempt to create sentient life that could fight off a slowly progressing alien wave that was sweeping through the galaxy. Lots of fun, at least for my definition of fun. That is amazing
  - com2kid 4y ago
    Check out Recursion my Tony Ballantyne[1]! I'm 90% sure that is where my subconscious pulled the plot from. :D He does an amazing job describing tactics used to fight off grey goo gone wild. [1] https://tonyballantyne.com/recursion/ https://tonyballantyne.com/recursion/
  - veqq 4y ago
    In 40k, the old ones made the eldar, orks and such for just this purpose.
- LoganDark 4y ago
  I am super jealous. I don't think I've ever had a lucid dream, or even really any fun ones. Definitely not any I'd call useful. In fact it's a huge pain point for me that it's so hard to use my imagination...
  - shrimp_emoji 4y ago
    Dawg do you know you can orgasm from dream sex That's being able to orgasm just from your mind The brain is the most powerful sexual organ "Maybe for you"
    - LoganDark 4y ago
      I wish... the furthest I've ever gotten is just dreams that include visible "parts", but never gotten to do anything with them. They really are just random casual everyday happenings, just with dream logic.
fullsend 4y ago
This resonates with me, thanks for sharing. It’s always felt obvious to me that dreams are the brain processing. Usually my dreams are anxious, and I’m an anxious person during the day.
johnfn 4y ago
What a cool interpretation. I've noticed that I am often less stressed after dreaming, but unfortunately, I dream quite rarely. Does anyone have any thoughts on how to dream more?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jbotz 4y ago
  It's not that you dream rarely, it's that you rarely remember your dreams. As a general rule, the only times we remember dreams is when we wake up right after (or during) the dream without leaving REM state. For some people this always happens, for others rarely. But you can induce it setting an alarm for a time that you're likely to be in REM state. To find that time, some kind of sleep monitor is helpful. There are also some supplements and medications that have the effect that sleep is lighter in the later stages and it's therefor more likely to wake up during REM. One worth trying is 5-HTP, probably 200mg... this should make you sleep more deeply in early sleep and more lightly when it wears off after a few hours.
awesomeMilou 4y ago
Really interesting interpretation. What's your take on people that usually dont't dream or can't remember their dreams?
- FailMore 4y ago
  Not remembering dreams is quite common. Norepinephrine is associated with long term memory formation, but acetylcholine is associated with your short term memory (e.g. remembering some random digits). When you dream acetylcholine is high. That is why dreams "slip" away from your mind so quickly when you wake, it's the same reason that a random series of digits is hard to keep in your working memory. I believe this support the interpretation I put forward. Typically our anxious behaviours are reinforced in our dreams (which should highlight their presence if we are paying attention to them). If these were added to our long term memory, they would reinforce the behaviours they are trying to highlight, in order to eventually have the waking you eliminate. It would be counter to this goal if reinforcing experiences were added to long term memory, adding them to short term memory means they don't leave a reinforcing imprint. It's not so easy to remember dreams for this reason
mannykannot 4y ago
My understanding is that PTSD quite commonly includes nightmares, which must be very unpleasant even if it has no further consequences. I see that, in your paper, you briefly consider PTSD nightmares, distinguishing them from normal dreams in that in the latter the dreamer's behavior seems odd, while in the former case, it is the environment that seems odd. For what it is worth, in my dreams (non-PTSD not-nightmare), the environment usually seems odd and I am just trying to cope with it as best I can.
em-bee 4y ago
This, in my eyes, is the function of dreaming. To highlight our neuroses/unconscious redundant anxieties. For this reason, controlling the content of your dreams would remove their primary function. it works both ways though. i frequently find my dreams influenced by activities during the day. intentional or not. the other day i was watching a lot of videos about public transport, and sure enough i was dreaming about that at night. so at that point my brain is already influenced. does that mean i accidentally interfered with the actual function of dreaming? but if it can happen accidentally, then why not also influence dreaming intentionally? should my friend keep dreaming about his son who killed himself? it's been years. therapy didn't help and the resulting anxiety is unlikely to go away anytime soon. sometimes an intervention and a distraction from those anxieties seems like a better idea.

com2kid 4y ago

> This, in my eyes, is the function of dreaming. To highlight our neuroses/unconscious redundant anxieties. For this reason, controlling the content of your dreams would remove their primary function. A large percent of people are lucid dreamers up until their 20s, so there likely isn't any hugely detrimental impact over some level of control over one's dreams. > I posit that during dreaming, the brain creates situations in which it would be wise to be unavoidant. For the longest time, my dreams were on the exciting / dangerous side. Lots of getting shot at, lots of fighting, lots of fun, but high stress situations. I had one dream that always stood out where I was actively terraforming worlds over the course of thousands of years in an attempt to create sentient life that could fight off a slowly progressing alien wave that was sweeping through the galaxy. Lots of fun, at least for my definition of fun. Also had a dream that took place over hundreds+ of years where I was stuck on a spaceship that thanks to relativity, had long since outlived the rest of humanity. That was a rather lonely dream. I've also watched plenty of movies in my dreams, and listened to some amazing concerts. I always wished I knew enough about music so I could transcribe the songs after I wake up. :( One thing that I miss now that I'm older is some of the plot lines from my dreams that had been going on for decades. It sucks to lose contact with some of the characters and places I used to visit.

jnsie 4y ago
> I had one dream that always stood out where I was actively terraforming worlds over the course of thousands of years in an attempt to create sentient life that could fight off a slowly progressing alien wave that was sweeping through the galaxy. Lots of fun, at least for my definition of fun. That is amazing
- com2kid 4y ago
  Check out Recursion my Tony Ballantyne[1]! I'm 90% sure that is where my subconscious pulled the plot from. :D He does an amazing job describing tactics used to fight off grey goo gone wild. [1] https://tonyballantyne.com/recursion/ https://tonyballantyne.com/recursion/
- veqq 4y ago
  In 40k, the old ones made the eldar, orks and such for just this purpose.
LoganDark 4y ago
I am super jealous. I don't think I've ever had a lucid dream, or even really any fun ones. Definitely not any I'd call useful. In fact it's a huge pain point for me that it's so hard to use my imagination...
- shrimp_emoji 4y ago
  Dawg do you know you can orgasm from dream sex That's being able to orgasm just from your mind The brain is the most powerful sexual organ "Maybe for you"
  - LoganDark 4y ago
    I wish... the furthest I've ever gotten is just dreams that include visible "parts", but never gotten to do anything with them. They really are just random casual everyday happenings, just with dream logic.

fullsend 4y ago

This resonates with me, thanks for sharing. It’s always felt obvious to me that dreams are the brain processing. Usually my dreams are anxious, and I’m an anxious person during the day.

johnfn 4y ago

What a cool interpretation. I've noticed that I am often less stressed after dreaming, but unfortunately, I dream quite rarely. Does anyone have any thoughts on how to dream more?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jbotz 4y ago
It's not that you dream rarely, it's that you rarely remember your dreams. As a general rule, the only times we remember dreams is when we wake up right after (or during) the dream without leaving REM state. For some people this always happens, for others rarely. But you can induce it setting an alarm for a time that you're likely to be in REM state. To find that time, some kind of sleep monitor is helpful. There are also some supplements and medications that have the effect that sleep is lighter in the later stages and it's therefor more likely to wake up during REM. One worth trying is 5-HTP, probably 200mg... this should make you sleep more deeply in early sleep and more lightly when it wears off after a few hours.

awesomeMilou 4y ago

Really interesting interpretation. What's your take on people that usually dont't dream or can't remember their dreams?

FailMore 4y ago
Not remembering dreams is quite common. Norepinephrine is associated with long term memory formation, but acetylcholine is associated with your short term memory (e.g. remembering some random digits). When you dream acetylcholine is high. That is why dreams "slip" away from your mind so quickly when you wake, it's the same reason that a random series of digits is hard to keep in your working memory. I believe this support the interpretation I put forward. Typically our anxious behaviours are reinforced in our dreams (which should highlight their presence if we are paying attention to them). If these were added to our long term memory, they would reinforce the behaviours they are trying to highlight, in order to eventually have the waking you eliminate. It would be counter to this goal if reinforcing experiences were added to long term memory, adding them to short term memory means they don't leave a reinforcing imprint. It's not so easy to remember dreams for this reason

mannykannot 4y ago

My understanding is that PTSD quite commonly includes nightmares, which must be very unpleasant even if it has no further consequences. I see that, in your paper, you briefly consider PTSD nightmares, distinguishing them from normal dreams in that in the latter the dreamer's behavior seems odd, while in the former case, it is the environment that seems odd. For what it is worth, in my dreams (non-PTSD not-nightmare), the environment usually seems odd and I am just trying to cope with it as best I can.

em-bee 4y ago

This, in my eyes, is the function of dreaming. To highlight our neuroses/unconscious redundant anxieties. For this reason, controlling the content of your dreams would remove their primary function. it works both ways though. i frequently find my dreams influenced by activities during the day. intentional or not. the other day i was watching a lot of videos about public transport, and sure enough i was dreaming about that at night. so at that point my brain is already influenced. does that mean i accidentally interfered with the actual function of dreaming? but if it can happen accidentally, then why not also influence dreaming intentionally? should my friend keep dreaming about his son who killed himself? it's been years. therapy didn't help and the resulting anxiety is unlikely to go away anytime soon. sometimes an intervention and a distraction from those anxieties seems like a better idea.