8 ms·

It's incredible how many people here are against transparency and a better labor market providing more information to the supplier side. Lord knows companies h

by oblio 4y ago

It's incredible how many people here are against transparency and a better labor market providing more information to the supplier side. Lord knows companies have probably 80% of the leverage in the job market. Tech people are doomed not by AIs, but by lack of solidarity, raw greed and lack of long term vision.

anhner 4y ago
I don't even understand how they would be against something that benefits them personally. I wonder if it's the mentality that "one day" they would become the IT moguls that own one of these companies, and wouldn't want this to disadvantage them?
- vkou 4y ago
  They probably think that they've gotten one over everyone, and are super-skilled negotiators that are earning 40% more than their peers for the same work. Reality is probably quite different from that imagination.
- atoav 4y ago
  Narcissism. [polemic rant incoming] They believe they are exceptional and deserve even higher pay than the ones listed, that the leopards-eating-peoples-faces-party won't eat their faces if they vote for it, that they are just temporarily embarrassed billionaires in a bit of a ruffle and golden times are just around the corner, they believe that they are better off if their surroundings are worse off, that the invisible hand of the market will fix everything except when it is them that suffer within the market, that is when the government needs to step in. The idea is vampirism, the polar opposite of Karma. Take as much as you can, kick down when you gained an slight angle on others, always priorize winning over any set of consistent principles, have a flexible relationship with the truth and underline aspects of it in inconsistent ways, as your goal is not to be truthful, but to win over others. Everything is a zero-sum-game, others having it good means they took something from you.
  - HEmanZ 4y ago
    I really think you strawman to the extreme with this. I’ve never met one of these people, but on the internet they get made up because they need to exist in order for posters to feel so justified and unarguably right in their political opinions.
    - yobbo 4y ago
      Rather, the point of caricature is to make something recognizable by exaggerating the distinguishing features.
    - atoav 4y ago
      How would you describe a polemic rant? The purpose of a polemic rant as I see it is precisely to take it to the extreme — otherwise it would neither be polemic, nor a rant.
zwarag 4y ago
Also, many people refuse to grant someone else the same salary, as it is seen as a matter of social status.
- sammalloy 4y ago
  > it is seen as a matter of social status Just rewatched the film "Margin Call", and salary as social status is one of the main themes that arises in almost every scene with the junior members of the firm.
piva00 4y ago
The lack of worker solidarity in tech is really astounding. I've been in this industry for almost 20 years and have been trying to instill some sense of it in every workplace I worked. Some decades ago it really seemed that tech workers felt like they were just tech moguls that hadn't made it yet, any kind of labour protection was looked at as "stifling innovation". Only lately I've seen people listen to me when I bring up that if you depend on a salary you're on the same side as 99% of other people, no matter you have a run away of 6 months saved, if you lose your job for 6-12 months and will be fucked by it you should have solidarity with others in the same spot or worse. Trying to bring up class struggles used to be mocked in the tech scene, I feel that people are slowly waking up though, the latest layoffs definitely got me surprised about some folks I know finally understanding what that means.
- TurboHaskal 4y ago
  > The lack of worker solidarity in tech is really astounding. It's because those that are overpaid relative to others in the industry are very aware of the situation.
- roenxi 4y ago
  I've seen what "solidarity" did to the manufacturing industry. I'd like my job to stay in my city. And anyone in tech has a lot more to gain from efforts to break the remaining guild-like systems in medicine and law making those services more affordable and available than they do from attempts to build a new one in tech.
  - piva00 4y ago
    And I've seen what solidarity (without the scary quotes) did to Sweden (and other Nordics), Germany, etc. as societies for the working class. A union is not a guild, it's not about creating barriers of entry like in law or medicine, unsure why you conflate those concepts. Perhaps it's from ignorance, or perhaps from the fears that the ruling class instilled into you.
    - johngladtj 4y ago
blitzar 4y ago
> but by lack of solidarity, raw greed Their salary is because they are exceptional, other people are not as exceptional and are unworthy of such things. It isn't a lack of solidarity or greed, its a lack of humility.
danjac 4y ago
There's a lot of "I didn't expect the leopard to eat my face" around here at the moment.
- ben_w 4y ago
  Very few of us are currently suffering from a panthera pardus to the face despite recent events. I'm also not even sure how many on this forum voted for the LEPF party either, given that while it's focused on Silicon Valley it's definitely got a global user base (I'm in Berlin!)
igleria 4y ago
I wonder about the correlation between being against this and working in the US.
th13row 4y ago
I just abhor the EU and everything it stands for. I can't wait to see how Europe comes crashing down.
- msm_ 4y ago
  I love EU and everything it stands for (even if the execution is not always perfect). Why do you want to see Europe crashing down?
  - th13row 4y ago
    Unelected bureaucrats who think they are above the citizens, too much reach, too much influence, insistence in regulating every industry and every activity. This can only end in a can a cashless mass-surveillance social credit system dystopia even worse than China. Give it a few years.
    - ktosobcy 4y ago
      Give me a break. Parlimant is elected directly, commission is made of PMs of the member states government, that were also elected. If feels like hearing Brits touting those 'unelected bureaucrats' while at the same time having unelected PM and house of Lords... no voting system is perfect nor the EU is perfect but this is one of the dumbest arguments there. As for policies - they are quite often very pro-citizen and having lived outside the EU for a couple of years I appreciate them even more...
      - qwytw 4y ago
        I definitely agree that in balance the EU has been greatly beneficial but let's not get overoptimistic... > Parliament is elected directly The institution is a joke with no real power compared to national parliaments. They don't get to appoint the government, can't propose legislation etc. basically they just rubber-stamp anything which is brought by the commission by them. Barely any anywhere takes the EU elections seriously. > made of PMs of the member states government PMs? National governments can appoint anyone they want and often use it as a way to reward their buddies with a very cushy job (with close to zero political accountability) for a few years. Or to get someone influential/popular/etc. but whom the government finds dangerous from the country for a few years. The process for picking ("electing") a commission president is a bit different but perfectly illustrates my point. They just appointed the most incompetent high ranking politician they could find in Germany... > unelected PM Just like the head of government in every single non-presidential country in Europe (Germany, Netherlands, Italy, Sweden, Spain, Austria etc... (the only excpetion is France). Anyway be any objective metric this is more democratic than the EU government. > and house of Lords. I agree. But it's an anachronistic and a powerless institution. Basically a retirement program for retired influential politicians...
brnt 4y ago
There is always a segment that thinks or even is better than the other lackeys, and that the king will reward this now and in the future. Let's call it the temporarily embarrassed billionaire syndrome: one day I'll own the factory, as long as I parrot the king.
still_grokking 4y ago
> Tech people are doomed not by AIs, but by lack of solidarity, raw greed and lack of long term vision. I see the same. If there would be an "IT people"'s union it would be likely one of the most powerful organizations on this planet—as verbatim nothing in business works without computers these days (which need to be constantly operated and maintained by some). But even mentioning the idea of such an union will give you instant backlash, up to pure hatred. Even in the EU where unions in general are seen as mostly positive by the majority of people. (But for some reasons not the IT crowd).
- ExoticPearTree 4y ago
  In the US I had to work with unionised workers and they would come in at 7am, do whatever they did and at 4pm they would drop everything and would not care if you needed them to work overtime to finish a project on time. Obviously paid overtime, in case anyone wonders. In other cases I worked with non-unionised workers and they worked more and they were actually cheaper by the hour. Tell me, how are unions good for business?
qthrowayq0909 4y ago
Not to state the obvious but the fact that this commend is the most upvoted in this thread kind of proves one of the premises wrong. It seems that a lot of people are for transparency (I certainly am) despite them not being too vocal about it.
- oblio 4y ago
  When I commented all the top comments fell under "lack of solidarity, raw greed and lack of long term vision". And there were about 5-10 of them.
  - qthrowayq0909 4y ago
    I'm just saying that the demographics of the audience were probably skewed in the beginning of the thread.

by oblio 4y ago

anhner 4y ago

I don't even understand how they would be against something that benefits them personally. I wonder if it's the mentality that "one day" they would become the IT moguls that own one of these companies, and wouldn't want this to disadvantage them?

vkou 4y ago
They probably think that they've gotten one over everyone, and are super-skilled negotiators that are earning 40% more than their peers for the same work. Reality is probably quite different from that imagination.
atoav 4y ago
Narcissism. [polemic rant incoming] They believe they are exceptional and deserve even higher pay than the ones listed, that the leopards-eating-peoples-faces-party won't eat their faces if they vote for it, that they are just temporarily embarrassed billionaires in a bit of a ruffle and golden times are just around the corner, they believe that they are better off if their surroundings are worse off, that the invisible hand of the market will fix everything except when it is them that suffer within the market, that is when the government needs to step in. The idea is vampirism, the polar opposite of Karma. Take as much as you can, kick down when you gained an slight angle on others, always priorize winning over any set of consistent principles, have a flexible relationship with the truth and underline aspects of it in inconsistent ways, as your goal is not to be truthful, but to win over others. Everything is a zero-sum-game, others having it good means they took something from you.
- HEmanZ 4y ago
  I really think you strawman to the extreme with this. I’ve never met one of these people, but on the internet they get made up because they need to exist in order for posters to feel so justified and unarguably right in their political opinions.
  - yobbo 4y ago
    Rather, the point of caricature is to make something recognizable by exaggerating the distinguishing features.
  - atoav 4y ago
    How would you describe a polemic rant? The purpose of a polemic rant as I see it is precisely to take it to the extreme — otherwise it would neither be polemic, nor a rant.

zwarag 4y ago

Also, many people refuse to grant someone else the same salary, as it is seen as a matter of social status.

sammalloy 4y ago
> it is seen as a matter of social status Just rewatched the film "Margin Call", and salary as social status is one of the main themes that arises in almost every scene with the junior members of the firm.

piva00 4y ago

The lack of worker solidarity in tech is really astounding. I've been in this industry for almost 20 years and have been trying to instill some sense of it in every workplace I worked. Some decades ago it really seemed that tech workers felt like they were just tech moguls that hadn't made it yet, any kind of labour protection was looked at as "stifling innovation". Only lately I've seen people listen to me when I bring up that if you depend on a salary you're on the same side as 99% of other people, no matter you have a run away of 6 months saved, if you lose your job for 6-12 months and will be fucked by it you should have solidarity with others in the same spot or worse. Trying to bring up class struggles used to be mocked in the tech scene, I feel that people are slowly waking up though, the latest layoffs definitely got me surprised about some folks I know finally understanding what that means.

TurboHaskal 4y ago
> The lack of worker solidarity in tech is really astounding. It's because those that are overpaid relative to others in the industry are very aware of the situation.
roenxi 4y ago
I've seen what "solidarity" did to the manufacturing industry. I'd like my job to stay in my city. And anyone in tech has a lot more to gain from efforts to break the remaining guild-like systems in medicine and law making those services more affordable and available than they do from attempts to build a new one in tech.
- piva00 4y ago
  And I've seen what solidarity (without the scary quotes) did to Sweden (and other Nordics), Germany, etc. as societies for the working class. A union is not a guild, it's not about creating barriers of entry like in law or medicine, unsure why you conflate those concepts. Perhaps it's from ignorance, or perhaps from the fears that the ruling class instilled into you.
  - johngladtj 4y ago

blitzar 4y ago

> but by lack of solidarity, raw greed Their salary is because they are exceptional, other people are not as exceptional and are unworthy of such things. It isn't a lack of solidarity or greed, its a lack of humility.

danjac 4y ago

There's a lot of "I didn't expect the leopard to eat my face" around here at the moment.

ben_w 4y ago
Very few of us are currently suffering from a panthera pardus to the face despite recent events. I'm also not even sure how many on this forum voted for the LEPF party either, given that while it's focused on Silicon Valley it's definitely got a global user base (I'm in Berlin!)

igleria 4y ago

I wonder about the correlation between being against this and working in the US.

th13row 4y ago

I just abhor the EU and everything it stands for. I can't wait to see how Europe comes crashing down.

msm_ 4y ago
I love EU and everything it stands for (even if the execution is not always perfect). Why do you want to see Europe crashing down?
- th13row 4y ago
  Unelected bureaucrats who think they are above the citizens, too much reach, too much influence, insistence in regulating every industry and every activity. This can only end in a can a cashless mass-surveillance social credit system dystopia even worse than China. Give it a few years.
  - ktosobcy 4y ago
    Give me a break. Parlimant is elected directly, commission is made of PMs of the member states government, that were also elected. If feels like hearing Brits touting those 'unelected bureaucrats' while at the same time having unelected PM and house of Lords... no voting system is perfect nor the EU is perfect but this is one of the dumbest arguments there. As for policies - they are quite often very pro-citizen and having lived outside the EU for a couple of years I appreciate them even more...
    - qwytw 4y ago
      I definitely agree that in balance the EU has been greatly beneficial but let's not get overoptimistic... > Parliament is elected directly The institution is a joke with no real power compared to national parliaments. They don't get to appoint the government, can't propose legislation etc. basically they just rubber-stamp anything which is brought by the commission by them. Barely any anywhere takes the EU elections seriously. > made of PMs of the member states government PMs? National governments can appoint anyone they want and often use it as a way to reward their buddies with a very cushy job (with close to zero political accountability) for a few years. Or to get someone influential/popular/etc. but whom the government finds dangerous from the country for a few years. The process for picking ("electing") a commission president is a bit different but perfectly illustrates my point. They just appointed the most incompetent high ranking politician they could find in Germany... > unelected PM Just like the head of government in every single non-presidential country in Europe (Germany, Netherlands, Italy, Sweden, Spain, Austria etc... (the only excpetion is France). Anyway be any objective metric this is more democratic than the EU government. > and house of Lords. I agree. But it's an anachronistic and a powerless institution. Basically a retirement program for retired influential politicians...

brnt 4y ago

There is always a segment that thinks or even is better than the other lackeys, and that the king will reward this now and in the future. Let's call it the temporarily embarrassed billionaire syndrome: one day I'll own the factory, as long as I parrot the king.

still_grokking 4y ago

> Tech people are doomed not by AIs, but by lack of solidarity, raw greed and lack of long term vision. I see the same. If there would be an "IT people"'s union it would be likely one of the most powerful organizations on this planet—as verbatim nothing in business works without computers these days (which need to be constantly operated and maintained by some). But even mentioning the idea of such an union will give you instant backlash, up to pure hatred. Even in the EU where unions in general are seen as mostly positive by the majority of people. (But for some reasons not the IT crowd).

ExoticPearTree 4y ago
In the US I had to work with unionised workers and they would come in at 7am, do whatever they did and at 4pm they would drop everything and would not care if you needed them to work overtime to finish a project on time. Obviously paid overtime, in case anyone wonders. In other cases I worked with non-unionised workers and they worked more and they were actually cheaper by the hour. Tell me, how are unions good for business?

qthrowayq0909 4y ago

Not to state the obvious but the fact that this commend is the most upvoted in this thread kind of proves one of the premises wrong. It seems that a lot of people are for transparency (I certainly am) despite them not being too vocal about it.

oblio 4y ago
When I commented all the top comments fell under "lack of solidarity, raw greed and lack of long term vision". And there were about 5-10 of them.
- qthrowayq0909 4y ago
  I'm just saying that the demographics of the audience were probably skewed in the beginning of the thread.