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From the article, it isn't clear whether a pay range of minimum wage to 1 million euros would be in compliance with this new rule. This is an actual tactic that

From the article, it isn't clear whether a pay range of minimum wage to 1 million euros would be in compliance with this new rule. This is an actual tactic that many US employers have used to follow the letter but not the spirit of salary transparency laws.

madeofpalk 4y ago
You don't even need to be that hostile for this to be... difficult. I've seen salary bands for a specific role + level to be pretty wide - like 90k-150k. And then there's where you might be willing to accept mid level to principal dev - should you just publish a range where the upper is multiples of the lower? What's that really helping? I'm all for more transparency, especially when it helps to equal out the power inbalance in employer to employee, but these attempts seem rough.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  From the article: > They will not have to publish the precise salary due to fears that this could be commercially sensitive. If you're going to preserve the commercially sensitive nature of pay at a given firm, the tolerances that you must accept will be several multiples higher than the cited 13 percent difference in pay between men and women.
  - stefan_ 4y ago
    .. why on earth would we preserve that? Should supermarkets not show prices?
    - WheatMillington 4y ago
      Supermarkets should not have to disclose their COST prices, because these are non public negotiations, not a public offer to buy/sell. That so many people wilfully choose not to understand this distinction frustrates useful conversation.
      - andyferris 4y ago
        I agree it's orthogonal to the original discussion, but I am interested in the hyptothesis that we'd be all better off if e.g. we could see the cost prices at supermarkets (and perhaps all their other relevant costs). E.g. is society better or worse off with less secrecy?
      - paxys 4y ago
        No the equivalent scenario would be a grocery store (or online store, hotel, airline etc.) not publicly advertising any prices at all. If you want something you have to take it to the cashier, and they will give you a personalized price based on whatever factors they choose. Should that be legal? Maybe, maybe not. But there are plenty of laws out there that mandate that companies make pricing more transparent, because that is good for the end consumer.
        sokoloff 4y ago
        Is the analog for hiring a software engineer closer to buying: 1. An economy round trip on Airline A, with max 2 checked bags, leaving from JFK at datetime D1 to SFO, returning at D2. 2. A round trip on a plane starting in New York in month M, all other details unknown. Employees are different; how well matched they are for a given job is not knowable in advance of a first conversation, so for jobs were a range of value creation is possible, the range of possible agreement is wide and is certainly not a point. I have two SWEs where one creates twice as much value as the other. If you hired both of them into your firm, which one created 2x as much value could easily switch.
    - layer8 4y ago
      If job applicants were as standardized as supermarket products, that would seem reasonable.
gotoeleven 4y ago
I think the main problem is that these laws often fail to explicitly outlaw unintended consequences.
- zeroonetwothree 4y ago
  Just like all laws?
nonethewiser 4y ago
I have also seen them spelled out in massive walls of text. Petty as fuck. Carefully scan the disclaimer section at the bottom for: > Colorado, New York City, California, and Washington Candidates Only. The salary range for this position is seventy thousand dollars to one hundred forty-seven thousand five hundred dollars. https://www.myrocketcareer.com/job-detail-page/16777898/software-engineer-remote/ https://www.myrocketcareer.com/job-detail-page/16777898/soft...
- polski-g 4y ago
  That sounds like an acceptable range for a job posting.
jltsiren 4y ago
It's not clear, because the details don't exist yet. There is only a directive that requires the member states change their national laws within a few years. There will likely be at least 27 different interpretations of the directive, which will all evolve in response to the specific circumstances in each member state. Many countries also have informal mechanisms of enforcement. For example, businesses may have learned that it's often better to comply with the spirit of the law voluntarily. That way the final regulations will be more flexible and reasonable than by forcing the government to spell out the details explicitly. Or there may be strong unions, in which case many issues may be effectively decided in discussions between unions, businesses, and the government. If businesses burn too much political capital on a minor issue, they will have less influence on bigger issues.
yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
> it isn't clear whether a pay range of minimum wage to 1 million euros would be in compliance with this new rule. I would literally pay to see someone look a judge in the eye and tell them that that counted.
_v7gu 4y ago
EU is perfectly ok with issuing fines to smartasses who abide by the word of law but violate the spirit of it. Like the whole iPhone USB debacle and how Apple got warned again and again when they announced they were trying to go around the requirements in "smart" ways
adrianN 4y ago
If you want to hire only desperate people that might be a good strategy.

madeofpalk 4y ago

You don't even need to be that hostile for this to be... difficult. I've seen salary bands for a specific role + level to be pretty wide - like 90k-150k. And then there's where you might be willing to accept mid level to principal dev - should you just publish a range where the upper is multiples of the lower? What's that really helping? I'm all for more transparency, especially when it helps to equal out the power inbalance in employer to employee, but these attempts seem rough.

sokoloff 4y ago
From the article: > They will not have to publish the precise salary due to fears that this could be commercially sensitive. If you're going to preserve the commercially sensitive nature of pay at a given firm, the tolerances that you must accept will be several multiples higher than the cited 13 percent difference in pay between men and women.
- stefan_ 4y ago
  .. why on earth would we preserve that? Should supermarkets not show prices?
  - WheatMillington 4y ago
    Supermarkets should not have to disclose their COST prices, because these are non public negotiations, not a public offer to buy/sell. That so many people wilfully choose not to understand this distinction frustrates useful conversation.
    - andyferris 4y ago
      I agree it's orthogonal to the original discussion, but I am interested in the hyptothesis that we'd be all better off if e.g. we could see the cost prices at supermarkets (and perhaps all their other relevant costs). E.g. is society better or worse off with less secrecy?
    - paxys 4y ago
      No the equivalent scenario would be a grocery store (or online store, hotel, airline etc.) not publicly advertising any prices at all. If you want something you have to take it to the cashier, and they will give you a personalized price based on whatever factors they choose. Should that be legal? Maybe, maybe not. But there are plenty of laws out there that mandate that companies make pricing more transparent, because that is good for the end consumer.
      - sokoloff 4y ago
        Is the analog for hiring a software engineer closer to buying: 1. An economy round trip on Airline A, with max 2 checked bags, leaving from JFK at datetime D1 to SFO, returning at D2. 2. A round trip on a plane starting in New York in month M, all other details unknown. Employees are different; how well matched they are for a given job is not knowable in advance of a first conversation, so for jobs were a range of value creation is possible, the range of possible agreement is wide and is certainly not a point. I have two SWEs where one creates twice as much value as the other. If you hired both of them into your firm, which one created 2x as much value could easily switch.
  - layer8 4y ago
    If job applicants were as standardized as supermarket products, that would seem reasonable.

gotoeleven 4y ago

I think the main problem is that these laws often fail to explicitly outlaw unintended consequences.

zeroonetwothree 4y ago
Just like all laws?

nonethewiser 4y ago

I have also seen them spelled out in massive walls of text. Petty as fuck. Carefully scan the disclaimer section at the bottom for: > Colorado, New York City, California, and Washington Candidates Only. The salary range for this position is seventy thousand dollars to one hundred forty-seven thousand five hundred dollars. https://www.myrocketcareer.com/job-detail-page/16777898/software-engineer-remote/ https://www.myrocketcareer.com/job-detail-page/16777898/soft...

polski-g 4y ago
That sounds like an acceptable range for a job posting.

jltsiren 4y ago

It's not clear, because the details don't exist yet. There is only a directive that requires the member states change their national laws within a few years. There will likely be at least 27 different interpretations of the directive, which will all evolve in response to the specific circumstances in each member state. Many countries also have informal mechanisms of enforcement. For example, businesses may have learned that it's often better to comply with the spirit of the law voluntarily. That way the final regulations will be more flexible and reasonable than by forcing the government to spell out the details explicitly. Or there may be strong unions, in which case many issues may be effectively decided in discussions between unions, businesses, and the government. If businesses burn too much political capital on a minor issue, they will have less influence on bigger issues.

yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago

> it isn't clear whether a pay range of minimum wage to 1 million euros would be in compliance with this new rule. I would literally pay to see someone look a judge in the eye and tell them that that counted.

_v7gu 4y ago

EU is perfectly ok with issuing fines to smartasses who abide by the word of law but violate the spirit of it. Like the whole iPhone USB debacle and how Apple got warned again and again when they announced they were trying to go around the requirements in "smart" ways

adrianN 4y ago

If you want to hire only desperate people that might be a good strategy.